CAUT

              To all, 

                      Sorry if this topic may has been discussed many times in the past and I just missed it,  but within the past year, I have had three different incidences in which a leg on a concert grand has folded under the piano or nearly fallen off when being moved. All three instruments where not on spider dollies but have the extra large double wheel brass casters. In two of the incidents, the scews of the leg plate that is in the uderside of the piano loosed up enough to create some play in the leg. This is what contributed to it buckling when going over a theashold or in one case a dampchasser extension chord. The loose screws of course can only be accessed if you remove the leg. In thirty five years of piano work this is my first experience with this. This might be explained by the fact the most of these years I was servicing concert grands on spider dollies. Now I have learned my lesson and plan to check the legs on these pianos each summer. Is this something everyone else has been experiencing with these piano with the extra large brass casters? Also, has it caused the institution to insist on putting the piano on a spider dolly, or have you just inacted a regulare maintenace schedule for checking the legs? Also, any tips on repair proceedures or tips welcome. 

        Sincerely, 

         Russell Schmidt , RPT 

Hi Russell, 

I think that the spider dollies don't make a difference for this problem.  Seems to me like the biggest issue contributing might be dryness in the winter that might make the fit of plates, screws, or glues joints loosen.  Also train the movers!  The piano should in my opinion always be moved in the direction of the round end-round end/single leg end first.  When the piano is not on the spider dolly it is easier to feel the sloppiness of to the top of the leg to the bottom of the leg glue joint if it is loose.  I make sure that I check this feel of the legs each time I service, but I don't usually look of the wedged or cams unless there is a dry snap.  All of my school's pianos are newer now, so they have the new plates and Allen bolts.

I have two jack in the boxes and the school owns a grand transporter.  I would use the jack in the box to raise the piano to feel the leg if I was unsure of the fit. This is the only way to be sure if there is something going on.  With no weight on the leg you can find a problem.  My guess is that when the piano is moved over a threshold they aren't trying to take some weight off of it.  In the past I have had the taper wedge come loose from dryness on many pianos.  The cams turn or be loose and the leg post glue joint fail.  The piano should be raised to reset the leg and turn the cam in to a locked position and tighten the screw. 

Using the jack in the box.  Cut extra blocks of 2x4 and 3/4" stock.  You need these to go under the cup ends of a spider dolly and on the new S&S style legs,  the plates are so thick you'll need to raise the bottom of the jack in the box. I never leave a piano on the hydraulic jacks alone.  I slip blocks in between the top of the jack in the box and the piano in case the hydraulics fa,,l the piano will rest on the box. 

It is also possible that your wheels need a clean out. Yuk there is always hair caught up in wheels. 

              To all, 

                      Sorry if this topic may has been discussed many times in the past and I just missed it,  but within the past year, I have had three different incidences in which a leg on a concert grand has folded under the piano or nearly fallen off when being moved. All three instruments where not on spider dollies but have the extra large double wheel brass casters. In two of the incidents, the scews of the leg plate that is in the uderside of the piano loosed up enough to create some play in the leg. This is what contributed to it buckling when going over a theashold or in one case a dampchasser extension chord. The loose screws of course can only be accessed if you remove the leg. In thirty five years of piano work this is my first experience with this. This might be explained by the fact the most of these years I was servicing concert grands on spider dollies. Now I have learned my lesson and plan to check the legs on these pianos each summer. Is this something everyone else has been experiencing with these piano with the extra large brass casters? Also, has it caused the institution to insist on putting the piano on a spider dolly, or have you just inacted a regulare maintenace schedule for checking the legs? Also, any tips on repair proceedures or tips welcome. 

        Sincerely, 

         Russell Schmidt , RPT 

Jessica,

I always reserve my willingness to respond to posts that I know are incorrect for fear the community may view me as an arrogant pompous patronizing know-it-all who possess, with zeal, the tenacity to disparage a fellow colleague's technical statement. But to set the record straight, a spider dolly will distribute a threshold shock to all legs, reducing the risk of breakage to a single leg. Sorry.

Roger

Hi Russell, 

I think that the spider dollies don't make a difference for this problem.  Seems to me like the biggest issue contributing might be dryness in the winter that might make the fit of plates, screws, or glues joints loosen.  Also train the movers!  The piano should in my opinion always be moved in the direction of the round end-round end/single leg end first.  When the piano is not on the spider dolly it is easier to feel the sloppiness of to the top of the leg to the bottom of the leg glue joint if it is loose.  I make sure that I check this feel of the legs each time I service, but I don't usually look of the wedged or cams unless there is a dry snap.  All of my school's pianos are newer now, so they have the new plates and Allen bolts.

I have two jack in the boxes and the school owns a grand transporter.  I would use the jack in the box to raise the piano to feel the leg if I was unsure of the fit. This is the only way to be sure if there is something going on.  With no weight on the leg you can find a problem.  My guess is that when the piano is moved over a threshold they aren't trying to take some weight off of it.  In the past I have had the taper wedge come loose from dryness on many pianos.  The cams turn or be loose and the leg post glue joint fail.  The piano should be raised to reset the leg and turn the cam in to a locked position and tighten the screw. 

Using the jack in the box.  Cut extra blocks of 2x4 and 3/4" stock.  You need these to go under the cup ends of a spider dolly and on the new S&S style legs,  the plates are so thick you'll need to raise the bottom of the jack in the box. I never leave a piano on the hydraulic jacks alone.  I slip blocks in between the top of the jack in the box and the piano in case the hydraulics fa,,l the piano will rest on the box. 

It is also possible that your wheels need a clean out. Yuk there is always hair caught up in wheels. 

              To all, 

                      Sorry if this topic may has been discussed many times in the past and I just missed it,  but within the past year, I have had three different incidences in which a leg on a concert grand has folded under the piano or nearly fallen off when being moved. All three instruments where not on spider dollies but have the extra large double wheel brass casters. In two of the incidents, the scews of the leg plate that is in the uderside of the piano loosed up enough to create some play in the leg. This is what contributed to it buckling when going over a theashold or in one case a dampchasser extension chord. The loose screws of course can only be accessed if you remove the leg. In thirty five years of piano work this is my first experience with this. This might be explained by the fact the most of these years I was servicing concert grands on spider dollies. Now I have learned my lesson and plan to check the legs on these pianos each summer. Is this something everyone else has been experiencing with these piano with the extra large brass casters? Also, has it caused the institution to insist on putting the piano on a spider dolly, or have you just inacted a regulare maintenace schedule for checking the legs? Also, any tips on repair proceedures or tips welcome. 

        Sincerely, 

         Russell Schmidt , RPT 

              To all, 

                      Sorry if this topic may has been discussed many times in the past and I just missed it,  but within the past year, I have had three different incidences in which a leg on a concert grand has folded under the piano or nearly fallen off when being moved. All three instruments where not on spider dollies but have the extra large double wheel brass casters. In two of the incidents, the scews of the leg plate that is in the uderside of the piano loosed up enough to create some play in the leg. This is what contributed to it buckling when going over a theashold or in one case a dampchasser extension chord. The loose screws of course can only be accessed if you remove the leg. In thirty five years of piano work this is my first experience with this. This might be explained by the fact the most of these years I was servicing concert grands on spider dollies. Now I have learned my lesson and plan to check the legs on these pianos each summer. Is this something everyone else has been experiencing with these piano with the extra large brass casters? Also, has it caused the institution to insist on putting the piano on a spider dolly, or have you just inacted a regulare maintenace schedule for checking the legs? Also, any tips on repair proceedures or tips welcome. 

        Sincerely, 

         Russell Schmidt , RPT 

              To all, 

                      Sorry if this topic may has been discussed many times in the past and I just missed it,  but within the past year, I have had three different incidences in which a leg on a concert grand has folded under the piano or nearly fallen off when being moved. All three instruments where not on spider dollies but have the extra large double wheel brass casters. In two of the incidents, the scews of the leg plate that is in the uderside of the piano loosed up enough to create some play in the leg. This is what contributed to it buckling when going over a theashold or in one case a dampchasser extension chord. The loose screws of course can only be accessed if you remove the leg. In thirty five years of piano work this is my first experience with this. This might be explained by the fact the most of these years I was servicing concert grands on spider dollies. Now I have learned my lesson and plan to check the legs on these pianos each summer. Is this something everyone else has been experiencing with these piano with the extra large brass casters? Also, has it caused the institution to insist on putting the piano on a spider dolly, or have you just inacted a regulare maintenace schedule for checking the legs? Also, any tips on repair proceedures or tips welcome. 

        Sincerely, 

         Russell Schmidt , RPT 

Here are a couple of examples of what happens when a piano isn't moved correctly. The Steinway L in a practice room has original 1" casters, student moved it but there was a slight bump in floor.

The other pix is disaster waiting to happen, with the Fazioli on the lift, which has sagged an inch or so. It doesn't jump well. 

We are using a Grand Transporter now to get it on and off the stage. I bought the 429B used, which has had a few student induced issues. One is they don't know how ( despite me telling them) to use the hydraulic jacks, so they spin the pin valve handle too many times and some fluid leaks out.

The other issue is that the front caster has to be rotated away from Transporter so the wheels don't catch on it. I had a metal worker make a longer middle piece, so that the unit doesn't bow up where it is pinned together. So now it bows a bit down, but replacing the bitter pins with bolts should help that. I may also change front wheels to 6", to make it easier to jack the nose up. The Transporter doesn't quite lift the nose unless there is a 2x4 between piano and top of that jack.

For fixing the leg, and putting leg plates back on, drill out screw holes, plug with a fluted dowel, and re- drill. Just use same screws ( or copies) so you don't go through the key bed.

Sometimes the screws get bent when ripped out, be sure replacements are at least as hard. I hope some of this helps. Your main issue is that threshold. Even on a stage truck it will stress the legs. See if maintenance folks can figure out a way to remove it.

David Graham

Graham Piano Service, Inc.

512 S. Main St.

Sycamore IL 60178

815-353-5450

grahampiano1@yahoo.com

              To all, 

                      Sorry if this topic may has been discussed many times in the past and I just missed it,  but within the past year, I have had three different incidences in which a leg on a concert grand has folded under the piano or nearly fallen off when being moved. All three instruments where not on spider dollies but have the extra large double wheel brass casters. In two of the incidents, the scews of the leg plate that is in the uderside of the piano loosed up enough to create some play in the leg. This is what contributed to it buckling when going over a theashold or in one case a dampchasser extension chord. The loose screws of course can only be accessed if you remove the leg. In thirty five years of piano work this is my first experience with this. This might be explained by the fact the most of these years I was servicing concert grands on spider dollies. Now I have learned my lesson and plan to check the legs on these pianos each summer. Is this something everyone else has been experiencing with these piano with the extra large brass casters? Also, has it caused the institution to insist on putting the piano on a spider dolly, or have you just inacted a regulare maintenace schedule for checking the legs? Also, any tips on repair proceedures or tips welcome. 

        Sincerely, 

         Russell Schmidt , RPT