Pianotech

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I appreciate your input, Kenneth. I have not used the inserts that used to be available from supply houses, but have heard reports similar to yours from some that have.

While there may be folks more expert at this procedure than you are, I would nevertheless be interested to learn how you do this.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:37
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

At one time a round insert was sold but the supply houses made from a Bakelite type material. However, from my experiences it was not very satisfactory.  They were noisy and became loose over time.  I don't anyone sells them anymore.  I usually either replace or insert a new shoe.  I would recommend a specialized service because it is pretty labor intensive.  

However, Alan someone with your experience, a shop with proper power equipment and time could also do the work.  There are a couple ways to address proper balance hole location and drilling.   I would be glad to share my process but I am sure there are others who might know a lot more than me.  :)

Kenneth Jeffs. 

Sent from my iPhone

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Thanks for your response, Debra.

Is your method for installing balance rail hole insets proprietary, or is it something that you are at liberty to share?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:08
From: Debra Legg
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:38:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Thanks for your response, Debra.

Is your method for installing balance rail hole insets proprietary, or is it something that you are at liberty to share?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:08
From: Debra Legg
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:38:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Thanks for your response, Debra.

Is your method for installing balance rail hole insets proprietary, or is it something that you are at liberty to share?

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:08
From: Debra Legg
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Ed,

Why replace the .162" balance pins with .146"s? Two reasons.

1) The keys are chucking badly enough that glue-sizing may not be sufficient to tighten them up, even if we replace the old key pins with new ones of the same size, and;

2) Normal balance rail pin paper punchings require modification to be used with precision on these original pins with larger-than-current diameter.

How would you advise that we proceed?

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:57
From: Edward Foote
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

 I have to ask:  Why?  

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Here's my low-tech/high-Q solution to chucking keys. (The block of wood holding the pin is normally held in the vice.)

1.) Use pin coming up through the BR hole as a fence against which the file can cut a dado
2.) Glue in the cross-cut strip of 1/16" maple veneer such that what's contacting the BR pin is end-grain maple. (…can't remember where I got that thickness from, but the width of the strip = the BR pin dia.)

A tiny amount of trimming maybe necessary once putting the key back on the keyframe.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 14:21
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Ed,

Why replace the .162" balance pins with .146"s? Two reasons.

1) The keys are chucking badly enough that glue-sizing may not be sufficient to tighten them up, even if we replace the old key pins with new ones of the same size, and;

2) Normal balance rail pin paper punchings require modification to be used with precision on these original pins with larger-than-current diameter.

How would you advise that we proceed?

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:57
From: Edward Foote
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

 I have to ask:  Why?  

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Bill, 

You must have read all the same Von Der Werkstatt articles that I did.  I have used it in the field many times.  

Ken

------------------------------
Kenneth Jeffs, RPT, Ph.D.
Chesterfield, MO United States
kenneth@curtisreso.com
(314) 960-6389
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 15:27
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Here's my low-tech/high-Q solution to chucking keys. (The block of wood holding the pin is normally held in the vice.)

1.) Use pin coming up through the BR hole as a fence against which the file can cut a dado
2.) Glue in the cross-cut strip of 1/16" maple veneer such that what's contacting the BR pin is end-grain maple. (…can't remember where I got that thickness from, but the width of the strip = the BR pin dia.)

A tiny amount of trimming maybe necessary once putting the key back on the keyframe.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 14:21
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Ed,

Why replace the .162" balance pins with .146"s? Two reasons.

1) The keys are chucking badly enough that glue-sizing may not be sufficient to tighten them up, even if we replace the old key pins with new ones of the same size, and;

2) Normal balance rail pin paper punchings require modification to be used with precision on these original pins with larger-than-current diameter.

How would you advise that we proceed?

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:57
From: Edward Foote
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

 I have to ask:  Why?  

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Nope, thought it up all by myself. But as I tell myself concerning my other brilliant invention, unison shimming, the idea is so simple that I can't believe that I was the first person to come up with it. (I do need help with modesty <G>.)

I remember the Rappaports' series, but didn't read all of them. The only drawback here is that the front of the hole is being replaced with something much harder than the back of the hole.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 15:47
From: Kenneth Jeffs
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Bill,

You must have read all the same Von Der Werkstatt articles that I did.  I have used it in the field many times.

Ken

------------------------------
Kenneth Jeffs, RPT, Ph.D.
Chesterfield, MO United States
kenneth@curtisreso.com
(314) 960-6389

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 15:27
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Here's my low-tech/high-Q solution to chucking keys. (The block of wood holding the pin is normally held in the vice.)

1.) Use pin coming up through the BR hole as a fence against which the file can cut a dado
2.) Glue in the cross-cut strip of 1/16" maple veneer such that what's contacting the BR pin is end-grain maple. (…can't remember where I got that thickness from, but the width of the strip = the BR pin dia.)

A tiny amount of trimming maybe necessary once putting the key back on the keyframe.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 14:21
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Ed,

Why replace the .162" balance pins with .146"s? Two reasons.

1) The keys are chucking badly enough that glue-sizing may not be sufficient to tighten them up, even if we replace the old key pins with new ones of the same size, and;

2) Normal balance rail pin paper punchings require modification to be used with precision on these original pins with larger-than-current diameter.

How would you advise that we proceed?

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:57
From: Edward Foote
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

 I have to ask:  Why?  

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 2:21:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Ed,

Why replace the .162" balance pins with .146"s? Two reasons.

1) The keys are chucking badly enough that glue-sizing may not be sufficient to tighten them up, even if we replace the old key pins with new ones of the same size, and;

2) Normal balance rail pin paper punchings require modification to be used with precision on these original pins with larger-than-current diameter.

How would you advise that we proceed?

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:57
From: Edward Foote
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

 I have to ask:  Why?  

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Edit:

Alan answered my question while I was typing it up. Never mind then, thanks!




------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:57
From: Edward Foote
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

 I have to ask:  Why?  

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I was wondering the same but agree  Alan's reasoning is quite sound.   

We also might consider how a smaller hole would effect key integrity at its most fragile point.  A new shoe or insert with a smaller pin hole would have less wood removed which would strengthen the key's balance point.  I agree this would be arguably minimal at best.  

An interesting thought for discussion.  Were location, tradition and or history the only reason for different balance rail pin sizes?  Was there an engineering factor considered at the time?   I am sure there is a reasonable explanation.  

Thanks Alan.  I am always looking for good mystery...

Ken


------------------------------
Kenneth Jeffs, RPT, Ph.D.
Chesterfield, MO United States
kenneth@curtisreso.com
(314) 960-6389
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 14:25
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Edit:

Alan answered my question while I was typing it up. Never mind then, thanks!




------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
Piano Technician / Artisan
(256) 947-9999
www.professional-piano-services.com

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:57
From: Edward Foote
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

 I have to ask:  Why?  

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:08:00 PM
From: Debra Legg
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi,

We use our own system regarding new balance rail hole inserts, not sure about other methods. Definitely replace the buttons.

Deb

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I meant to send this to all but forgot to reply all.

At one time a round insert was sold by the supply houses made from a Bakelite type material. However, from my experiences it was not very satisfactory.  They were noisy and became loose over time.  They don't anyone sell them anymore.  I usually either replace or insert a new shoe.  I would recommend a specialized service because it is pretty labor intensive.  

 

However, Alan someone with your experience, a shop with proper power equipment and time could also do the work.  There are a couple ways to address proper balance hole location and drilling.   I would be glad to share my process but I am sure there are others who might know a lot more than me.  :)

 

Kenneth Jeffs. 

------------------------------
Kenneth Jeffs, RPT, Ph.D.
Chesterfield, MO United States
kenneth@curtisreso.com
(314) 960-6389
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Hi Richard,

Yes, I have done just what you described in the past, having noticed the wear of the key stick against the balance pin at the hole. (Inverting the original pin is even more effective if the end that was formerly at the top was mushroomed during the original installation, aiding with the fit of the inverted pin in the hole in the balance rail.)

I have come to prefer WNG key pins (along with many other of their action parts). So if I take out the original worn and corroded pins, I would rather replace them with WNG of the same diameter than reuse the originals. Saves having to clean the corrosion, and I think the WNG pins are better.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 15:17
From: Richard West
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi, Alan,

The key chucking may be worsened by severely worn pins at the keys' balance rail pin holes .Have you ever pulled the existing balance rail pins out and, then, turned them upside down? If you turn the pins upside down, you have a more or less fresh surface at the top and bottom of the key.

Maybe that would be enough for sizing to finish fitting to the balance pin hole at the bottom.

Richard West

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Perhaps find someone who has an Onesti balance hole tool set for the work.   Debra's process is very good.  Thanks!

------------------------------
Tim Coates RPT
Sioux Falls SD
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 17:09
From: Debra Legg
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Okay, I'll try to logically explain how we replace balance holes. First, you need to make a tool that will accurately index the bottom of the key for the position of the new hole. I used a short length (2.5 -3 inches) of 1/2 wide steel...I believe it's 3/16 thick. Drill your correct size balance hole in the middle of the piece of steel. Then drill a small hole at each end non-equidistant from your balance hole and solder in a small pointed pin in each of the two end holes. I paint one end of the tool either red (rear) or black (back) so that I can be sure to use it in the same direction for each key and for same direction when drilling the new balance hole.

With the keys on the frame propped in their rest position (up at the front) and the frame clamped to the work bench, construct a forward stop for the keys. I prefer to do the naturals and then the sharps.

Work your way through all 88 keys by doing the following: lift off a key, remove approx 3/16 inch of balance rail punching (save the little stack of punchings), drop your metal guide, with the two little prongs up, over the pin and press down. Carefully lift key up and firmly press the guide then remove it.

At this point you will have the old balance hole and two divots in the key wood.

Set up a 3/4 inch end cut router on a router table to remove the old balance hole and surrounding wood to the depth of the thickness of the new piece of wood you will be inserting. We use birch paint stirring sticks cut to 3/4 inch pieces correctly orienting the grain.

Glue in your replacement wood. We use either hot hide or carpenter's wood glue and clamp with 2 inch spring clamps.

Line up your index tool on the underdide of each key, press it firmly and drill through the balance hole with the correct size bit.

Repeat 88 times. Once in the rhythm of it it goes along nicely!

For changing the pin size, in this situation, you would need to have the new pins in place before you start. You can perfect the above sequence by first making fake balance holes using thin card BR punchings under each key and gluing them to the key wood. This gives a pre-fit rather than a sloppy enlarged hole on a smaller pin.

I am writing this from my phone and will see if I can at least attach a pic of the indexing tool. If not, there may be an album of pictures on FB Debra Legg Piano Service. 

Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

What model and year Steinway is this ? I agree about using new key buttons however that is an intense exercise. You will have to debush and rebush the old keybuttons adjusting the felt size for the smaller pins. I have a tool that helps align the keybutton with the balance pin hole if you have to use new keybuttons however you need to have the balance pin hole in the right spot. I have a stash of the bakelite inserts and the tool but only have done it on a small number of keys. Fabricating a jig and your own inserts may be the best way to go for a full set. Better yet send those bad boys off to a key service that knows how to do it . I am sure there are past articles in the journals.
If you go the WN&G route you probably need to consider what to do with the front keypins which may involve drilling inserts. I am working on a Wessell Nickel and Gross action that is in a Hardman Peck Grand and had to do this. Remember the Golden Rule it will cost 2-3 times as much time than your estimate. Jobs like this are lunch eaters. You may never do this again. The budget needs to be examined after getting a few quotes from a key service

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Alan,
I have used a method very similar to Debra’s a few times. An article by Bill Spurlock in the early 90s describes in detail. I did not change pin sizes though. I like Debra’s idea of a fake balance hole using card balance punchings glued to key for even better guide location.

Conceivably you could maintain the original buttons by adding wood epoxy paste filler and creating a narrower mortise, inserting a sizing caul, and then rebushing.

All of this sounds and is a fair amount of work, but very satisfying when the keys chuck so badly that one can never get back checking to a consistent height (just one of the many benefits of tightening balance holes.)

Good luck!
Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 8:06:00 PM
From: James Kelly
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

What model and year Steinway is this ? I agree about using new key buttons however that is an intense exercise. You will have to debush and rebush the old keybuttons adjusting the felt size for the smaller pins. I have a tool that helps align the keybutton with the balance pin hole if you have to use new keybuttons however you need to have the balance pin hole in the right spot. I have a stash of the bakelite inserts and the tool but only have done it on a small number of keys. Fabricating a jig and your own inserts may be the best way to go for a full set. Better yet send those bad boys off to a key service that knows how to do it . I am sure there are past articles in the journals.
If you go the WN&G route you probably need to consider what to do with the front keypins which may involve drilling inserts. I am working on a Wessell Nickel and Gross action that is in a Hardman Peck Grand and had to do this. Remember the Golden Rule it will cost 2-3 times as much time than your estimate. Jobs like this are lunch eaters. You may never do this again. The budget needs to be examined after getting a few quotes from a key service

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your endorsement of Debra's approach.

Your suggestion about sizing the existing key buttons down to take a .146" sounds promising. It could be a whole lot less work--and possibly even a better result--than replacing the key buttons.

Best,

Alan


------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 13:40
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Alan,
I have used a method very similar to Debra's a few times. An article by Bill Spurlock in the early 90s describes in detail. I did not change pin sizes though. I like Debra's idea of a fake balance hole using card balance punchings glued to key for even better guide location.

Conceivably you could maintain the original buttons by adding wood epoxy paste filler and creating a narrower mortise, inserting a sizing caul, and then rebushing.

All of this sounds and is a fair amount of work, but very satisfying when the keys chuck so badly that one can never get back checking to a consistent height (just one of the many benefits of tightening balance holes.)

Good luck!
Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 8:06:00 PM
From: James Kelly
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

What model and year Steinway is this ? I agree about using new key buttons however that is an intense exercise. You will have to debush and rebush the old keybuttons adjusting the felt size for the smaller pins. I have a tool that helps align the keybutton with the balance pin hole if you have to use new keybuttons however you need to have the balance pin hole in the right spot. I have a stash of the bakelite inserts and the tool but only have done it on a small number of keys. Fabricating a jig and your own inserts may be the best way to go for a full set. Better yet send those bad boys off to a key service that knows how to do it . I am sure there are past articles in the journals.
If you go the WN&G route you probably need to consider what to do with the front keypins which may involve drilling inserts. I am working on a Wessell Nickel and Gross action that is in a Hardman Peck Grand and had to do this. Remember the Golden Rule it will cost 2-3 times as much time than your estimate. Jobs like this are lunch eaters. You may never do this again. The budget needs to be examined after getting a few quotes from a key service

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 1/5/2023 9:17:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your endorsement of Debra's approach.

Your suggestion about sizing the existing key buttons down to take a .146" sounds promising. It could be a whole lot less work--and possibly even a better result--than replacing the key buttons.

Best,

Alan


------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 13:40
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Alan,
I have used a method very similar to Debra's a few times. An article by Bill Spurlock in the early 90s describes in detail. I did not change pin sizes though. I like Debra's idea of a fake balance hole using card balance punchings glued to key for even better guide location.

Conceivably you could maintain the original buttons by adding wood epoxy paste filler and creating a narrower mortise, inserting a sizing caul, and then rebushing.

All of this sounds and is a fair amount of work, but very satisfying when the keys chuck so badly that one can never get back checking to a consistent height (just one of the many benefits of tightening balance holes.)

Good luck!
Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 8:06:00 PM
From: James Kelly
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

What model and year Steinway is this ? I agree about using new key buttons however that is an intense exercise. You will have to debush and rebush the old keybuttons adjusting the felt size for the smaller pins. I have a tool that helps align the keybutton with the balance pin hole if you have to use new keybuttons however you need to have the balance pin hole in the right spot. I have a stash of the bakelite inserts and the tool but only have done it on a small number of keys. Fabricating a jig and your own inserts may be the best way to go for a full set. Better yet send those bad boys off to a key service that knows how to do it . I am sure there are past articles in the journals.
If you go the WN&G route you probably need to consider what to do with the front keypins which may involve drilling inserts. I am working on a Wessell Nickel and Gross action that is in a Hardman Peck Grand and had to do this. Remember the Golden Rule it will cost 2-3 times as much time than your estimate. Jobs like this are lunch eaters. You may never do this again. The budget needs to be examined after getting a few quotes from a key service

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Joe,

Excellent to know, and thanks for providing those details born of your own experience.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-06-2023 00:16
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Alan,

I tried this technique on a Steinway B in a heavily used university teaching studio after being disappointed that my fresh rebushing job seemed to be loose very quickly. In this piano, the button mortise wood was damaged and weakened by someone using the supply house button mortise tightening punch (I don't remember what they call it exactly.) When it came time for new shoes on the keys, I wanted a solution for a tighter button mortise without installing new buttons. 

I used Wood Epox putty by Abatron, and used their coloring powders to match the button wood.   When I rebush keys with hot hide glue, I paint a watery glue solution as a primer on the button wood, so I did this as well with the epoxy putty, thinning it with isopropyl alcohol. 

It's been 2 1/2 years, under frequent and heavy-handed usage (this studio breaks the most strings,) and the repairs are holding up very well. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 1/5/2023 9:17:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your endorsement of Debra's approach.

Your suggestion about sizing the existing key buttons down to take a .146" sounds promising. It could be a whole lot less work--and possibly even a better result--than replacing the key buttons.

Best,

Alan


------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 13:40
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Alan,
I have used a method very similar to Debra's a few times. An article by Bill Spurlock in the early 90s describes in detail. I did not change pin sizes though. I like Debra's idea of a fake balance hole using card balance punchings glued to key for even better guide location.

Conceivably you could maintain the original buttons by adding wood epoxy paste filler and creating a narrower mortise, inserting a sizing caul, and then rebushing.

All of this sounds and is a fair amount of work, but very satisfying when the keys chuck so badly that one can never get back checking to a consistent height (just one of the many benefits of tightening balance holes.)

Good luck!
Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 8:06:00 PM
From: James Kelly
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

What model and year Steinway is this ? I agree about using new key buttons however that is an intense exercise. You will have to debush and rebush the old keybuttons adjusting the felt size for the smaller pins. I have a tool that helps align the keybutton with the balance pin hole if you have to use new keybuttons however you need to have the balance pin hole in the right spot. I have a stash of the bakelite inserts and the tool but only have done it on a small number of keys. Fabricating a jig and your own inserts may be the best way to go for a full set. Better yet send those bad boys off to a key service that knows how to do it . I am sure there are past articles in the journals.
If you go the WN&G route you probably need to consider what to do with the front keypins which may involve drilling inserts. I am working on a Wessell Nickel and Gross action that is in a Hardman Peck Grand and had to do this. Remember the Golden Rule it will cost 2-3 times as much time than your estimate. Jobs like this are lunch eaters. You may never do this again. The budget needs to be examined after getting a few quotes from a key service

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Alan,
I should clarify that I painted thinned epoxy putty only onto the button wood to adhere the epoxy, not a thinned solution onto the cured putty to adhere bushing cloth.

Joe


Original Message:
Sent: 1/6/2023 6:55:00 AM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Joe,

Excellent to know, and thanks for providing those details born of your own experience.

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 01-06-2023 00:16
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Alan,

I tried this technique on a Steinway B in a heavily used university teaching studio after being disappointed that my fresh rebushing job seemed to be loose very quickly. In this piano, the button mortise wood was damaged and weakened by someone using the supply house button mortise tightening punch (I don't remember what they call it exactly.) When it came time for new shoes on the keys, I wanted a solution for a tighter button mortise without installing new buttons. 

I used Wood Epox putty by Abatron, and used their coloring powders to match the button wood.   When I rebush keys with hot hide glue, I paint a watery glue solution as a primer on the button wood, so I did this as well with the epoxy putty, thinning it with isopropyl alcohol. 

It's been 2 1/2 years, under frequent and heavy-handed usage (this studio breaks the most strings,) and the repairs are holding up very well. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 1/5/2023 9:17:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your endorsement of Debra's approach.

Your suggestion about sizing the existing key buttons down to take a .146" sounds promising. It could be a whole lot less work--and possibly even a better result--than replacing the key buttons.

Best,

Alan


------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 01-05-2023 13:40
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Alan,
I have used a method very similar to Debra's a few times. An article by Bill Spurlock in the early 90s describes in detail. I did not change pin sizes though. I like Debra's idea of a fake balance hole using card balance punchings glued to key for even better guide location.

Conceivably you could maintain the original buttons by adding wood epoxy paste filler and creating a narrower mortise, inserting a sizing caul, and then rebushing.

All of this sounds and is a fair amount of work, but very satisfying when the keys chuck so badly that one can never get back checking to a consistent height (just one of the many benefits of tightening balance holes.)

Good luck!
Joe Wiencek
NYC


Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 8:06:00 PM
From: James Kelly
Subject: RE: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

What model and year Steinway is this ? I agree about using new key buttons however that is an intense exercise. You will have to debush and rebush the old keybuttons adjusting the felt size for the smaller pins. I have a tool that helps align the keybutton with the balance pin hole if you have to use new keybuttons however you need to have the balance pin hole in the right spot. I have a stash of the bakelite inserts and the tool but only have done it on a small number of keys. Fabricating a jig and your own inserts may be the best way to go for a full set. Better yet send those bad boys off to a key service that knows how to do it . I am sure there are past articles in the journals.
If you go the WN&G route you probably need to consider what to do with the front keypins which may involve drilling inserts. I am working on a Wessell Nickel and Gross action that is in a Hardman Peck Grand and had to do this. Remember the Golden Rule it will cost 2-3 times as much time than your estimate. Jobs like this are lunch eaters. You may never do this again. The budget needs to be examined after getting a few quotes from a key service

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

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Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
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Original Message:
Sent: 1/4/2023 1:00:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Debra's approach reminds me of a very similar technique developed by Ken Orgel, RPT.  His version uses strictly wooden inserts, which he fabricates, and then inserts into precision-routed key bottoms, which he then also pushes against a front stop fence on the white and black keys. His system is unique, in that when the inserts are first glued into the slot, there is about 1/4" clearance on both sides, which he eventually fills with epoxy putty. And then, before the insert glue is dry, he places the key in position and uses business cards on either side to keep the keys perfectly squared and perpendicular -with new buttons attached also. Moves fairly quickly once the set-up is complete, and his repair has stood up well over many years.
One other observation, which I discovered myself about 30 years ago, when I was confronted with a M&H BB with several low-tenor keys that were chucking badly.  I decided to brush one or two light coats of the thicker CA formula adhesive --mostly on the gap side that needed filling for proper alignment. When enough had been added to make the key bind on the balance rail pin, I worked slowly and carefully to file away just the right spot and amount for a good fit.
What was surprising to me was how much faster the action felt on those keys.  I decided to lightly coat all the balance rail holes with the thicker CA. Most keys required no further adjustment, but the overall "acceleration" could be felt easily.  Try it sometime on a random key (on a practice room piano, etc) and see is you don't notice the rather dramatic improvement.
Seems I remember seeing new plastic inserts installed on some new Chinese pianos. Similar results, I would guess.

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Brian Mott RPT
Madison WI
(608) 246-0506
RPT
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Original Message:
Sent: 01-04-2023 13:00
From: Alan Eder
Subject: converting .162" balance rail pins to .146"

Greetings,

We are considering replacing the balance rail pins on a Golden Era Steinway grand (currently .162") with new ones that are .146".

A reduction in the diameter of the balance hole in the bottom of the key stick of .015" seems like too much to hope for from glue sizing.

Has anyone installed balance hole inserts to make this conversion?

And if you have, was it necessary to replace the key buttons as well, or come up with some other means to compensate for the smaller balance pin diameter?

We know that a new set of keys could render this question moot, but that is not in the budget for this project.

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------