Wesley,
That''s exactly how I got into the piano biz too!
David D.
Original Message:
Sent: 10/14/2023 9:49:00 AM
From: Wesley Gill
Subject: RE: Duo Art action removal
I appreciated the responses from David Dewey and Peter Grey regarding player mechanisms. I admit that I must agree with both points of view.
I was introduced to this technology by accident at a young age and quickly fell in love with it. Little did I know that this technology would be the catalyst for me to become a piano technician. That was many decades ago.
In the interim I've serviced innumerable non-player pianos, and rebuilt a number of pneumatically operated instruments. I have have enjoyed my job (how many people can say that?) and meeting the people who owned the pianos I serviced. I joined the Guild and, thanks to continuing education thru the Guild I was able to expand my knowledge greatly. Thank you to everyone who contributed to that learning process.
Still, my first love will always be foot-pumped player pianos! My player piano and the many rolls I have collected over the years have become treasured friends.
Yes, times have changed, expensive materials and labor as well as little demand for player pianos leads some to say that these dinosaurs should be junked.
Personally I would love to see these saved and rebuilt/restored by those who have the money to do so.
Perhaps it may inspire someone to choose piano technology as a career….just as it did me. Thanks for reading.
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[Wesley] [Gill[Designation]
Apollo PA
(412) 480-6125
WesleyGillWesley
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Original Message:
Sent: 10-13-2023 12:01
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Duo Art action removal
David,
You are one of the few remaining geniuses that know the ins and outs of these mechanical marvels. I agree that they are fantastic pieces of design and mechanical implementation. It blows my mind at the incredible complexity involved and the resultant performance output.
My "negatives" are not at all directed toward the units in general, but rather directed toward Steinway specifically. I do not believe that they "wanted" to get into that market (players), however the market demands at the time (without the benefit of prophetic foresight) "required" that they follow the market and agree to design instruments that would accomodate a player mechanism (money talks). Their choices required significant geometric alterations in the action cavity which they knew were "less than optimal" for accommodating a human pianist (the mechanism doesn't care about the other end of the keys). In their minds (IMO and cannot prove it), I believe they decided that primary usage of these pianos was going to be mechanical whereas secondary (if any) usage would be by a non-performing amateur in the household, roughly parallel to what we now see going on in SS sales if Spirio units (people with lots of money but don't know how to play).
Make no mistske, I have tremendous respect for the people who designed and built these amazing units. They were absolute geniuses (as you are too), way beyond my capability of thinking. It's just that markets, economies, and life changes in unexpected ways and the people like you who can and will keep these things going are few and far between. I have no one in my neck of the woods to refer the few calls I get regarding these to service them. They've died or quit and no one will replace them.
I still believe though that SS would not have made any if they could have gotten away with it without suffering economically.
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
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Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 10-13-2023 00:12
From: David Dewey
Subject: Duo Art action removal
I am surprised that I still have to defend player mechanisms to a professional group of educated piano technicians; I thought the days of the "Tuner" saying "I'll take all this useless player mechanism out, it is a detriment to your piano's performance. " were long-gone.
I believe Peter is all wrong in his summation of players and their pianos. The player makers did many things over the years to make them more serviceable and reliable, and published booklets on the mechanisms adjustments and repairs. They were put in mostly high quality pianos, as the player mechanisms were expensive in themselves. The pianos were meant to be played. Duo-Art believed that the roll box above the keys made the piano more accessible to playing than the units in a drawer below the keys, which made the leg-room more limited. The player unit was intended to add to the owner's enjoyment of their instrument. One could play along with a roll, and in the days before good mechanical music recording machines, one could hear a well-known pianist LIVE in one's own living room.
Yes, the mechanism is antiquated with today's technology, but it is still an amazing mechanism and, if rebuilt correctly, and in a piano in good condition, will still do what it was made to do, and with remarkable dynamics. Sadly, the entire piano market is diminishing, and one can often have such a great instrument given to them-yet I am still busier than I want to be with people willing to pay to have their player piano working again-even if it is just a foot-pedaled 88 note player. Now finding good quality materials to do the rebuilding is becoming a problem, there is not enough of a demand for such materials nowadays-yet some folks have worked together internationally to find or have made appropriate materials, and yes, they are more expensive than they once were.
While prior to the 1940s players were put in quality pianos, in the 1960s resurgence of players, many were put in lower quality pianos (face it, most pianos in the 1960s suffered in the quality department!).
The Model T was mentioned in this discussion; hmm, I have a Model T (more than one actually), so maybe my reference point is modified by that. . .
David "play 'em if ya got 'em" Dewey
Original Message:
Sent: 10/12/2023 3:37:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: Duo Art action removal
"Someone" should make a video tutorial of this royal pain in the neck. However, whoever owns one of these "things" needs to understand that the original intention of them did not include playing at the keyboard. The keys are a formality. The sole intention was for it to be used as a machine until the machine failed. Then it was to be discarded.
Anyone who has picked one up "cheap" thinking they got a real bargain (the seller laughed all the way to the bank) must now come to grips with reality, and the reality is VERY time consuming, complicated, and therefore expensive. Not a bargain. You're dealing with technology that was primo in the days of Model T automobiles. Unfortunately (depending on your point of view) we no longer live in those days. We don't work with that technology. Our time is no longer worth only 75 cents an hour.
Make the hassle well worth your while. Don't cater to the "poor me" victim hood. Just my opinion. I have learned that people WILL SPEND MONEY on what they WANT, yet simultaneously pretend they don't have it. If necessary, just say "no".
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
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Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
Original Message:
Sent: 10-12-2023 14:26
From: David Dewey
Subject: Duo Art action removal
Unfortunately Parker Leigh's suggestion to "just work around it" isn't practical. The Duo-Art player system, with the spool box above the keys usually routes the tubing down through the keybed-although some late models ran the tubing to the sides of the keybed-these are much easier to work on!. The signal lines are considered tubing, the larger vacuum supply lines are Hoses. So basically, you have tubing running between the keys into the keyframe. Underneath the keybed are (usually) three "connecting blocks" which must be unscrewed and lowered out of the way (if the tubing is in good shape, this is fairly simple). Then above the action you have to dismantle the case trim and any connecting wires or hoses-oh, and in front of the keys are the control levers, these must be lowered or disconnected so the action can slide straight out without lifting it. on the right side of the case will be the air supply hose for the roll motor-this is sometimes the most difficult part to disconnect! Very tight space there! Once all the connecting bits (hoses, wires, braces) are disconnected, the action with the spool box attached can be slid out of the piano.
The fun hasn't ended yet, as the tubing going through the keys has to be taken off, and kept in order so you don't get them mixed up-various ways to do this, the simplest is get a kit of wiring number labels (self-adhesive strips the you wrap around each tube. Some people just tape them in order, others make a stick with small dowels on them to push the tubing over. Once this is done, the roll box and motor can be taken off the top of the action, and the action worked on much as any regular piano action.
You DO want to get the regulation "right on" before putting the roll box, etc. back on!
So, yes, it is very time consuming to regulate one of these pianos! However, the player mechanism can play the piano quite remarkably as if the pianist were playing it right there in front of you. Oh, don't forget that the note playing bit does push on the end of the keys, so you might have to regulate that so none of the "lifters" are pushing up on the end of the keys when they are at rest. There are various ways this is done from adjustable lifters either at the top end or at the pneumatic end, and sometimes the entire playing stack is fastened so it can be raised or lowered a bit as a unit. This changes from model to model and year to year, you'll have to look at your piano to figure it out-hopefully whomever worked on it in the past already did this, so you won't have to mess with it.
Good Luck, allow LOTS of time!
David Dewey
PS, the gasketing between the keybed and the connecting blocks is leather, make certain this is in good shape before putting things back together.
Original Message:
Sent: 10/12/2023 7:55:00 AM
From: Parker Leigh
Subject: RE: Duo Art action removal
No need to remove the player action. Work around it and multiply your usual regulation fee x 4.
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Parker Leigh RPT
Winchester VA
(540) 722-3865
Original Message:
Sent: 10-11-2023 14:36
From: Jeff Farris
Subject: Duo Art action removal
Hello,
Is anyone reading this in Austin area, and feels comfortable removing and replacing a Duo Art system? It's a 1927 S&S model M. The system was restored at some point in the past. Tubes and bellows look like new. But the action desperately needs reconditioning and regulation.
Thanks,
Jeff
Jeff Farris
Piano Service
Austin, TX
512-636-1914
jfpianoservice.com