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Erard action work

  • 1.  Erard action work

    Posted 10 days ago
    Greetings,

    A customer of mine purchased an 1870 Erard grand that has been partially restored and needs some regulation. Before I go digging into the action…has anyone in this group had any experience with these? If so, any sage words of advice?

    Thanks!

    Jeffrey W Cutler
    Chords and Boards, LLC
    651-398-6293
    University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
    University of St Thomas
    Century College

    Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent - Victor Hugo


  • 2.  RE: Erard action work

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 9 days ago
    Many years ago I restored an 1835 Erard. Until I find my notes, I do remember that the key dip had to be very shallow to function well.
    You might get valuable information from Mr. Strange at the Sigal Museum in the Carolinas and of course David Pinnegar in the UK, who contributes frequently to this site, and perhaps Fred Sturm.
    Nancy Salmon, RPT





  • 3.  RE: Erard action work

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 9 days ago
    I have very little personal experience, but have researched fairly thoroughly. I am in the process of translating an account of Erard action prep written in the late 1860s (presumably by an Erard factory manager). It was uncovered by Robert Adelson after he published his book, Erard - A Passion for the Piano. It is included in Marc Valdeyron's translation of that book into French, which came out late last year. The following regulation specs are derived from that account. 

    Blow  54 mm + (adjusted by a linked "capstan," a reverse threaded brass rod, square in cross section in its middle, that turns in two wooden pieces, one attached to the key, the other to the wippen)
    Let off 6 mm
    Dip 8 - 9 mm
    Check is not adjusted by bending the "spoon" (if it is adjusted, that is done by replacing the leather on the hammer molding that bears on the check), but should be about 25 mm
    Drop (the screw is on the shank itself (not the flange), and is T-shaped - the T bears on the rep lever) can be adjusted by turning in 180 degree increments). 11 mm is recommended

    The dampers are below the strings, lowered by a kind of spoon that extends from the end of the wippen.
    The photo shows the parts. You can remove a key without pulling the stack, but must unsnap the equivalent of a captan from the key first.

    Not sure if you will have the original flange design, which allows for adjusting friction by turning a screw.

    That should at least provide an initial basis for understanding. It's a different animal. 

    Note that the hammer is mortised to the shank - far more stable than a dowel glued into a hole. Checking is barely felt due to lever advantage (compare to our familiar design where it is 1 : 1, check on end of key to finger on key). Damper action is also felt far less, again due to lever advantage. The linked "capstan" design is far more stable, doesn't need constant adjustment as the wipp cushion compresses. The jack tender is covered with felted cloth, which means that it will not create dimples in the let off cloth (again, more stable regulation). These are the kinds of things Sebastien Erard obsessed about. 

    It is a very sophisticated design, but difficult to manufacture. The modern grand action is a simplification, removing some of the most important details, from the perspective of the feel and facility of the action. 
    2ErardWippenHammer.jpeg

    Regards,
    Youtube Spotify Deezer Apple Amazon
    www.artoftuning.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda






  • 4.  RE: Erard action work

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 9 days ago
    Hi, all,

    It might be worth checking with Bill Shull here in CA in Redlands, he’s a PTG member, he has owned and run Period Pianos for quite a long time and has extra experience with pianos from that era. He has a website, you can search for him by name. He loves to talk old pianos and be of help.

    Kathy




  • 5.  RE: Erard action work

    Posted 9 days ago
    Wow! Thank you everyone. And Fred, I feel like I now have the full manual for the job.

    Merci (it is a French brand after all)
    Jolly Good! (because it was built in London)

    Jeff


    Jeffrey W Cutler
    Piano Technician
    Chords and Boards LLC
    Piano Tuning & Repair
    Stillwater, Minn
    651-398-6293






  • 6.  RE: Erard action work

    Posted 8 days ago
    So , many times I'm reading through these interesting questions/ answers .... and learn so much, I often wish there were a "like" button to reinforce how informative the information is; not to just the person asking the question :)


    --
    Melanie Brooks
    Brooks LTD LLC
    152 Rte 163 Bldg A
    Uncasville, CT 06382
    800-326-2440






  • 7.  RE: Erard action work

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 7 days ago

    What Melanie said!!  I clicked the "Recommend" button but I don't know what that accomplishes, other than to bring me here to reply.  I appreciate the vast knowledge that is generously shared.  That's one reason Fred won the Jimmy Gold Award at SCRC this year.  Thanks everyone for your contributions to the knowledge bank.



    ------------------------------
    Gary Bruce, RPT
    Bruce Piano Service
    Edmond, OK
    405-413-TUNE
    www.brucepiano.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Erard action work

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 7 days ago
    Where is the "like" button for Melanie Brooks?

    --
    Dave Conte, RPT, CCT
    Owner, Rocky Top Piano
    Knoxville, TN
    817-307-5656







  • 9.  RE: Erard action work

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 7 days ago
    Fred's reply is great, and I look forward to reading the translation.  I would just add that when you first encounter one of these, you'll probably be a bit intimidated or confused, but after just a few minutes you'll realize that everything you're used to seeing in a modern grand action is there; it's just a little different shape or in a different place.  Have confidence in yourself and wade in.
    Ken

    Www.kenwalkup.com
    Historicalkeyboards.as.cornell.edu





  • 10.  RE: Erard action work

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 7 days ago
    We owe so much to the genius of Erard!
     
    It's very easy and important to precisely adjust the hammer flange friction using the adjustment screw on the hammer flange.  If the hammer flange friction is too low, which is often the case on these vintage Erards, the action will be more difficult to control.  The effect of low friction is especially noticeable in the pianissimo ranges.  Hammer flange friction is easily adjusted using upweight indicators as follows: 
     
    1. Determine the upweight and leave that weight on the key.
     
    2. Back off the friction screw a little and see if the upweight motion of the hammer increases. 
        Repeat until the upweight motion doesn't change.  The flange friction is now zeroed out.
     
    3. Subtract from the zeroed upweight an amount equal to the desired friction weight of the hammer flange.   5 grams is a         recommended specification. 
     
    4. Place that weight on the key.  The upweight motion will now be very fast.  Tighten the friction adjust screw until hammer     exhibits the proper rising speed for upweight.  
     
    The hammer flange friction weight of the key will now be 5 grams.
     
    David Stanwood


    ------------------------------
    David Stanwood
    stanwoodpiano.com
    stanwood@tiac.net
    508-693-1583
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Erard action work

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 6 days ago
    Period Piano Collection has maintained several Erards and used them for period performance, and has several others in its collection in varying condition:


    and we have explored Erard regulation like the rest of you who have had contact with them - experimentally, like Ken Walkup described.   I learned back in 2016 working with pianist Jocelyn Swigger, who was going to perform all the Chopin Etudes on one of our Erards, and we found the hammer flange friction adjustment to be an incredible improvement on action control.  

     More recently David Stanwood spent a couple days here analyzing the Erard action, and some of his work was with this adjustment.  This, and his study since, has resulted in a very reliable procedure  for adjustment, which he posted in this thread and is worth keeping.

    We have a couple of 6 foot Erards which have more conventional wood hammer flanges without any friction adjustment, but the actions are otherwise the same.  So not all Erards have the adjustable friction brass flange, but most I've seen do.

    I'm also grateful for the translation work of Fred Sturm, which has resulted in - for the first time that I know of - a "factory" regulation procedure with specs.  (Fred has previously translated the text of the Erard Dossiere.)   I was surprised that letoff was a full 6mm! (Though the drop is imprecise, having a threaded T which has only two positions in each full rotation of adjustment.)  The most important thing is that you can't transfer your preconceived specs, but you can transfer your functional expectations, which is what I think Ken is saying.  There is danger in expecting modern dip or blow;  the ratio of the Erard action is much different than that of the Erard/Herz, so the hammer blow distance is greater, and the key dip less, than the Erard/Herz (except for the very early Erard/Herz, found on Steinways from 1963 to 1878, which have ratios closer to the original Erard).  And a huge difference is that you don't dare try to bend the backcheck wire.  (It's surprising to me that we haven't found similar instructions from the Erard London factory, and maybe someone from England might know about such a document?)

    What is valuable about Fred's translated Erard specs is that the uninitiated - which is nearly all of us! - will have a point of reference that is real-world Erard.  We're getting closer to being able to collect Erard wisdom in an English resource for the service of the Erard piano.

    Of course we also have to cope with the back action, an extraordinary, self-contained mechanism which is fully removable in one unit.  The hinges will deteriorate and the vellum (or similar material) must be replaced;  and the return springs must also be replaced as they also break.  So that is a standard service.  The damper felt is always flat, and is sometimes mistakenly replaced by modern wedge style felt;   A quality flat felt is the best.    

    David Stanwood and Fred Sturm have helped us to better service the great Erard piano.

    Bill
    Bill Shull, Period Piano Collection




     






  • 12.  RE: Erard action work

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 6 days ago

      It's the way the damper mechanism works that causes a lot of the complication in the hammer action:  the backcheck needs to be on the front side of the hammer, which is the reason for the forked hammer shanks.  The backcheck is in between the two forks. This backcheck is a stout metal thing, with a roughened surface (cast in?) meant to catch the leather on the bottom of the hammer.  This is not meant to be bent to adjust checking, as Bill says, but it often IS bent to allow clearance between the forks.  If you find that you must bend it for whatever reason, use bending pliers carefully to avoid splitting out the wood.

    I haven't found any information on the early Erard/Herz action that rationalizes the idiosyncrasies of the Erard, does anyone know about this?

    And on the subject of translations, there is no good English account of the life of Carl Bechstein.  Everything I have seen seems to be based on about one paragraph of the same material. I know there is at least one German language biography, maybe someone would be able to translate that using AI?

     






  • 13.  RE: Erard action work

    Posted 3 days ago
    Thank you all for your generous suggestions, information and input. The owner has quite a collection of instruments making every visit a learning experience. I will report back on how it turns out.


    Jeffrey W Cutler
    Chords and Boards, LLC
    651-398-6293
    University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire
    University of St. Thomas
    Century College


    Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent - Victor Hugo