Pianotech

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

I wouldn't call it "diluted"  but rather it has a solvent in it intended forbuse with metal. The 321 does not contain this solvent. I believe this is the only difference and the 321 is intended for use where there may be plastic involved.  This assumes I read the website correctly. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

I wouldn't call it "diluted"  but rather it has a solvent in it intended forbuse with metal. The 321 does not contain this solvent. I believe this is the only difference and the 321 is intended for use where there may be plastic involved.  This assumes I read the website correctly. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Horace,

Interesting that it is not to be mixed with petroleum products. I take that to mean that they "may not work as intended" if mixed with other stuff. Makes sense. 

However, when I added a little to my CBL from Jon Page it made a significant difference (i.e. improvement) to the point where I need to limit my application so as not to end up with too little friction. It has made the "truly impossible" ones surprisingly manageable. No apparent side effects thus far. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I wouldn't call it "diluted"  but rather it has a solvent in it intended forbuse with metal. The 321 does not contain this solvent. I believe this is the only difference and the 321 is intended for use where there may be plastic involved.  This assumes I read the website correctly. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Horace,

Interesting that it is not to be mixed with petroleum products. I take that to mean that they "may not work as intended" if mixed with other stuff. Makes sense. 

However, when I added a little to my CBL from Jon Page it made a significant difference (i.e. improvement) to the point where I need to limit my application so as not to end up with too little friction. It has made the "truly impossible" ones surprisingly manageable. No apparent side effects thus far. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I wouldn't call it "diluted"  but rather it has a solvent in it intended forbuse with metal. The 321 does not contain this solvent. I believe this is the only difference and the 321 is intended for use where there may be plastic involved.  This assumes I read the website correctly. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

I wouldn't call it "diluted"  but rather it has a solvent in it intended forbuse with metal. The 321 does not contain this solvent. I believe this is the only difference and the 321 is intended for use where there may be plastic involved.  This assumes I read the website correctly. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

I haven't tried out this new-to-piano-technicians lubricant, but what I've read doesn't indicate it is harmless to wooden parts.

I wouldn't call it "diluted"  but rather it has a solvent in it intended forbuse with metal. The 321 does not contain this solvent. I believe this is the only difference and the 321 is intended for use where there may be plastic involved.  This assumes I read the website correctly. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

All-

Thank you for the timely input on this new lubricant. Two questions- do we yet know how it works on action centers in situ without disassembly? And is this Essex an anomaly or was this a common problem  in the era it was made?

Grateful for your input.

David

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-25-2023 07:35
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Essex action centers

I haven't tried out this new-to-piano-technicians lubricant, but what I've read doesn't indicate it is harmless to wooden parts.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 16:21
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Essex action centers

Hi, Peter,

You are correct. I was incorrectly simplifying.

It's clear from some of the posts on a couple of sites that cater to competition fishing, different folks use both of these products in similar; yet also different ways. Noted in a couple of posts on one list was that neither of these should be mixed with petroleum-based products.

Reading the MSDS sheets for the two products makes the differentiation between them clear.

Hopefully, this will turn out to be something really useful for us.

Thanks very much.

Kind regards.

Horace






  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 11/24/2023 4:02:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: Essex action centers

I wouldn't call it "diluted"  but rather it has a solvent in it intended forbuse with metal. The 321 does not contain this solvent. I believe this is the only difference and the 321 is intended for use where there may be plastic involved.  This assumes I read the website correctly. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 14:45
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Essex action centers

Hi, Alan,

No...TSI321 is the "undiluted" version. TSI301 is the "diluted" version.

It's looking like a number of us are experimenting with this stuff. It certainly gets rave reviews from a number of various markets.

I've ordered both versions; and am hoping to be playing with them soon.

Kind regards.

Horace




  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 11/24/2023 1:27:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: Essex action centers

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 11:14
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Essex action centers

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

"The Piano Whisperer"
Maker of the finest maximum output piano soundboards. (Osage Orange Bridge Caps, Norway Spruce Panels, Engineered Ribs, Sustain Bar)

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (Real Dynamic Inertia Control and Smoothness)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 09:30
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 09:05
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Essex action centers

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 08:02
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

To put things in context...neither Protek nor Fomblin, nor VS-PROFELT, nor CBL, nor CLP (of any formulation marketed to piano technicians as long as I've been in this business...approaching 50 years), nor any other liquid that I can think of at the moment, comes (or came) with an MSDS, nor an ingredient list (except perhaps a partial one maybe). None (someone please correct me if I am in fact wrong on this).

Basically they are all "experimental" and we use them at our own risk. Fomblin is the only one that I know of that actually states this verbatim (yet it has no MSDS). I find it interesting that the same "cautions" have not been applied to things like Fantastik, brake cleaner, starting fluid, etc. (At least not that I've read).

It is the same with this TSI formulation. No, there is no piano specific long term experimental data (were doing it as we speak).  Are we taking a risk? Yes, but it is a calculated one based on an inspection of ... wait for it... the MSDS...a disclosure required by law...for this product, as well as significant usage in other industrial and recreational areas. 

Use it at your own risk and report your results both positive or negative (I already have one negative). If not interested, or the risk is too great for you, don't use it. It may be new to us, but it's been around a long time and has a track record of its own. Check it out. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-25-2023 07:50
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

Thank you for the timely input on this new lubricant. Two questions- do we yet know how it works on action centers in situ without disassembly? And is this Essex an anomaly or was this a common problem  in the era it was made?

Grateful for your input.

David

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-25-2023 07:35
From: Patrick Draine
Subject: Essex action centers

I haven't tried out this new-to-piano-technicians lubricant, but what I've read doesn't indicate it is harmless to wooden parts.

------------------------------
Patrick Draine RPT
Billerica MA
(978) 663-9690

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 16:21
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Essex action centers

Hi, Peter,

You are correct. I was incorrectly simplifying.

It's clear from some of the posts on a couple of sites that cater to competition fishing, different folks use both of these products in similar; yet also different ways. Noted in a couple of posts on one list was that neither of these should be mixed with petroleum-based products.

Reading the MSDS sheets for the two products makes the differentiation between them clear.

Hopefully, this will turn out to be something really useful for us.

Thanks very much.

Kind regards.

Horace






  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 11/24/2023 4:02:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: Essex action centers

I wouldn't call it "diluted"  but rather it has a solvent in it intended forbuse with metal. The 321 does not contain this solvent. I believe this is the only difference and the 321 is intended for use where there may be plastic involved.  This assumes I read the website correctly. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 14:45
From: Horace Greeley
Subject: Essex action centers

Hi, Alan,

No...TSI321 is the "undiluted" version. TSI301 is the "diluted" version.

It's looking like a number of us are experimenting with this stuff. It certainly gets rave reviews from a number of various markets.

I've ordered both versions; and am hoping to be playing with them soon.

Kind regards.

Horace




  Original Message


Original Message:
Sent: 11/24/2023 1:27:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: RE: Essex action centers

Has the lubricant under discussion in this thread migrated from TSI321 to TSI301?

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 11:14
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Essex action centers

I made a video of TSI301 removing Verdigris on action centers and a rep spring.

"Better to see it with your own eyes, rather than read a claim in an ad it is." Yoda

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybiMKywjWrM&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am61zjmAuNLDoyD2hRyxQuqR&index=3

-chris

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations

"The Piano Whisperer"
Maker of the finest maximum output piano soundboards. (Osage Orange Bridge Caps, Norway Spruce Panels, Engineered Ribs, Sustain Bar)

Inventor of Inertia Touch Wave (Real Dynamic Inertia Control and Smoothness)

865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 09:30
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

Thanks Peter-

I have some arriving tomorrow. I ordered it unrelated to this to test it for myself.

D

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 09:05
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Essex action centers

David,

Get some TSI 301 and see what that will do. I for one would be interested. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 08:02
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Perhaps Daniel DeBiasio (head of Piano Technical Services at Steinway) could offer some advice on this matter. Or at least give us a clue what the actual manufacturer (Young Chang, later Pearl River, as I understand it) recommends?

I'd suggest David Brown inform the owner of best practice solutions to the problem, in descending order of expense: parts replacement ($$$ unless they're under warranty), reaming the bushing & repinning a la Don Mannino's excellent classes, or the various chemical "solution" (alcohol/water, fairly standard for non-verdigris'd bushing/pins), etc. This should help change the perspective the customer might develop ("you charged $XXX to tune & fix the problem but notes are still sticking!!").

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

PS I see the instrument is 16 years old, well beyond any piano warranty periods I am familiar with. Still, the company that distributes & sells them ought to give some advice when asked.

Perhaps Daniel DeBiasio (head of Piano Technical Services at Steinway) could offer some advice on this matter. Or at least give us a clue what the actual manufacturer (Young Chang, later Pearl River, as I understand it) recommends?

I'd suggest David Brown inform the owner of best practice solutions to the problem, in descending order of expense: parts replacement ($$$ unless they're under warranty), reaming the bushing & repinning a la Don Mannino's excellent classes, or the various chemical "solution" (alcohol/water, fairly standard for non-verdigris'd bushing/pins), etc. This should help change the perspective the customer might develop ("you charged $XXX to tune & fix the problem but notes are still sticking!!").

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

I agree with discussing the matter with the owner with full disclosure of risk/reward/benefit/failure/relative cost. 

I would be surprised if the manufacturer says anything beyond: "Do whatever you think is best in consultation with the owner"...on an out of warranty instrument. 

I will be interested in the final result, whatever it happens to be. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

PS I see the instrument is 16 years old, well beyond any piano warranty periods I am familiar with. Still, the company that distributes & sells them ought to give some advice when asked.

Perhaps Daniel DeBiasio (head of Piano Technical Services at Steinway) could offer some advice on this matter. Or at least give us a clue what the actual manufacturer (Young Chang, later Pearl River, as I understand it) recommends?

I'd suggest David Brown inform the owner of best practice solutions to the problem, in descending order of expense: parts replacement ($$$ unless they're under warranty), reaming the bushing & repinning a la Don Mannino's excellent classes, or the various chemical "solution" (alcohol/water, fairly standard for non-verdigris'd bushing/pins), etc. This should help change the perspective the customer might develop ("you charged $XXX to tune & fix the problem but notes are still sticking!!").

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Some of the wood has a "mottled" appearance to it suggesting the piano has or was in a high humidity location. As for the verdigis deposit perhaps it is a reaction to something in the action cloth that oozed out from the cloth or high moisture making felt wet. I have not heard of the problem in the Essex or Boston models . It would be good to know where the piano was made 16 years ago. Hopefully this is a one-off 

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

All-

Thank you for the responses. Once the retailer and owner come to an agreement I'll report back.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-27-2023 11:13
From: James Kelly
Subject: Essex action centers

Some of the wood has a "mottled" appearance to it suggesting the piano has or was in a high humidity location. As for the verdigis deposit perhaps it is a reaction to something in the action cloth that oozed out from the cloth or high moisture making felt wet. I have not heard of the problem in the Essex or Boston models . It would be good to know where the piano was made 16 years ago. Hopefully this is a one-off 

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 08:02
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

For tight action centers, such as those with verdigris, I use the old-fashioned hand reamer.  Let's see if I have an accurate summary of using TS1321:  (a) developed for the fishing industry, (b) has unlabeled ingredients, (c) that might have an effect on wooden parts, (d) has a particular Manufacturer's Safety Data Sheet that should be reviewed, (e) has no long term use experience with pianos, and (f) is not used by piano OEMs.  Did I omit anything? :-)

Regards, Norman

Norm,

It appears that you summarized things quite well. However, since it was actually developed back in the Apollo space program days (maybe they actually do fish in space...I don't know) it has an established track record in industrial applications (like many things we "consumers" never heard of before...even with the all-knowing internet). 

As always...don't drink the stuff, and use with caution (if desired) until you're fully satisfied with its efficacy. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-01-2023 08:15
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

Thank you for the responses. Once the retailer and owner come to an agreement I'll report back.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-27-2023 11:13
From: James Kelly
Subject: Essex action centers

Some of the wood has a "mottled" appearance to it suggesting the piano has or was in a high humidity location. As for the verdigis deposit perhaps it is a reaction to something in the action cloth that oozed out from the cloth or high moisture making felt wet. I have not heard of the problem in the Essex or Boston models . It would be good to know where the piano was made 16 years ago. Hopefully this is a one-off 

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 08:02
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Peter (and someone else) wrote: "For tight action centers, such as those with verdigris, I use the old-fashioned hand reamer".

I hope by "old-fashioned" we're all referring to the Mannino broaches, or self-made broaches (rough up an appropriate size center pin with a file, place in a pin vise or handle. Not the # 153 reamer sold by Schaff. Easy to trash a bushing using that one.  

For tight action centers, such as those with verdigris, I use the old-fashioned hand reamer.  Let's see if I have an accurate summary of using TS1321:  (a) developed for the fishing industry, (b) has unlabeled ingredients, (c) that might have an effect on wooden parts, (d) has a particular Manufacturer's Safety Data Sheet that should be reviewed, (e) has no long term use experience with pianos, and (f) is not used by piano OEMs.  Did I omit anything? :-)

Regards, Norman

Norm,

It appears that you summarized things quite well. However, since it was actually developed back in the Apollo space program days (maybe they actually do fish in space...I don't know) it has an established track record in industrial applications (like many things we "consumers" never heard of before...even with the all-knowing internet). 

As always...don't drink the stuff, and use with caution (if desired) until you're fully satisfied with its efficacy. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-01-2023 08:15
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

Thank you for the responses. Once the retailer and owner come to an agreement I'll report back.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-27-2023 11:13
From: James Kelly
Subject: Essex action centers

Some of the wood has a "mottled" appearance to it suggesting the piano has or was in a high humidity location. As for the verdigis deposit perhaps it is a reaction to something in the action cloth that oozed out from the cloth or high moisture making felt wet. I have not heard of the problem in the Essex or Boston models . It would be good to know where the piano was made 16 years ago. Hopefully this is a one-off 

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 08:02
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------

Patrick, I am the guilty party (the "someone else") who uses the Schaff #153 reamer. I really like it and recommend it. Works great. But you might be right – for someone without the experience or who for some reason can't handle the #153, having individual knurled center pins sounds like a good fallback approach. It is easy with the #153 to over-do the reaming and need to move up one pin size – takes some practice. Regards, Norman.

Peter (and someone else) wrote: "For tight action centers, such as those with verdigris, I use the old-fashioned hand reamer".

I hope by "old-fashioned" we're all referring to the Mannino broaches, or self-made broaches (rough up an appropriate size center pin with a file, place in a pin vise or handle. Not the # 153 reamer sold by Schaff. Easy to trash a bushing using that one.  

For tight action centers, such as those with verdigris, I use the old-fashioned hand reamer.  Let's see if I have an accurate summary of using TS1321:  (a) developed for the fishing industry, (b) has unlabeled ingredients, (c) that might have an effect on wooden parts, (d) has a particular Manufacturer's Safety Data Sheet that should be reviewed, (e) has no long term use experience with pianos, and (f) is not used by piano OEMs.  Did I omit anything? :-)

Regards, Norman

Norm,

It appears that you summarized things quite well. However, since it was actually developed back in the Apollo space program days (maybe they actually do fish in space...I don't know) it has an established track record in industrial applications (like many things we "consumers" never heard of before...even with the all-knowing internet). 

As always...don't drink the stuff, and use with caution (if desired) until you're fully satisfied with its efficacy. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 12-01-2023 08:15
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

Thank you for the responses. Once the retailer and owner come to an agreement I'll report back.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-27-2023 11:13
From: James Kelly
Subject: Essex action centers

Some of the wood has a "mottled" appearance to it suggesting the piano has or was in a high humidity location. As for the verdigis deposit perhaps it is a reaction to something in the action cloth that oozed out from the cloth or high moisture making felt wet. I have not heard of the problem in the Essex or Boston models . It would be good to know where the piano was made 16 years ago. Hopefully this is a one-off 

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 11-24-2023 08:02
From: David Brown
Subject: Essex action centers

All-

I saw a 16 year old Essex grand  this week that had severely sluggish jack and hammer centers which Protek would not remedy. Many centers/pins are green with a verdigris like appearance. Photo attached. I rarely service this brand and am wondering if this is common? I would be suspicious of repinning as a solution if there is already this level of contamination. Anyone familiar with Essex?

Many thanks in advance.

DB

------------------------------
David C. Brown RPT
Garland TX
tunermandb88.com
------------------------------