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EV's - On Topic!!!

  • 1.  EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2022 15:55

    Ladies and Gentlemen

     

    This is strictly about EVs and whether they make sense for our business (or any business where you drive a lot).  I am considering buying one in a year or two.  They are expensive and right now there's a long waiting list for a Tesla, although I haven't settled on a brand.  Of course, the cost of your electricity matters.  Don Page posted about his plug-in hybrid last month and said that normally his cost per mile was about the same for gas and electricity but that currently electricity wins with the high price of gas.  For me, electricity would be a clear winner.  In Tacoma, we pay $0.085 per kWh, while Jon pays $0.32.  Jon made an interesting point about the tax deductions, but I'd like to hear more about the cost of driving.

     

    I will be doing my own online research, but just wanted to see if anyone else has an EV or plug-in hybrid and has looked carefully at the total cost of ownership and then figured their likely cost per mile over the life of the vehicle.  Cars can last for decades, so there are some unknowns, if you have considered the issue, I'd be interested in hearing about it.



  • 2.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Posted 08-08-2022 17:28
    I recommend a Plug-in Hybrid. The distance per full charge is less than a full EV, 42-50 miles on my Rav 4 Prime. But then gas/hybrid takes over when the charge is minimal.
    Then in hybrid mode it is gas and self-charging electric. Currently hybrid mpg is ~44 and drops to 33-36 in the cold months. Likewise, m/kWh drops from 3.5 to ~2.7.
    As of my last electric bill, electricity here is $.32/ kWh.

    I don't have to worry about distance driving and looking for a charging station, which costs more than plugging in at home just as a payphone costs more. The owner of the charging station wants to make a profit and pays the same amount for electricity as you. I imagine there will come a time when charging stations will have lines and you'll need to wait hours to charge. Think, Service Areas along highways. Remember the gas lines? With the gas/elec combo, you just keep going like the Energizer Bunny.

    Tomorrow, I'm tuning about 45 miles away (Provincetown) and with a full charge I can make it there and then rely on the hybrid mode to get me back and plug in again. On regular house current it takes about 12 hours to fully charge my car. There are fast-charging outlets available but are costly to purchase and have installed.

    Bottom line is that I enjoy driving in electric mode more than I do in hybrid. It's quieter and there's plenty of power for my purposes. Right now, a bonus is the mileage deduction plus electricity as business expense deduction; at least until the IRS catches on.

    Oil change is every 5K miles and supposedly the brakes will last longer with the use of the electric motors to slow you down (regenerative braking). With full EV there is no oil to change. The plug-in aspect costs about $10K more than a straight hybrid. I've heard people say that $10K buys a lot of gas but then you don't get to silently cruise along.
    Motorheads will always prefer gas or diesel but you don't have to be a tree-hugger to appreciate the electric mode.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 3.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 00:21
    Having recently purchased a gas car (Subaru Impreza) at $5000 over the msrp I'm not sure Evs are at such a premium. I have some friends who have had both Tesla and Chevy Volt and they actually prefer the Volt fwiw 





  • 4.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 00:29

    Jon, Patrick, Geoff and Susan –

     

    Thank you for all that.  I learned a few things.  I do wish that plug-in hybrids were the opposite of what they are now.  That is, I wish they had a substantial electric range like 150-200 miles with a small gas-powered generator just for those times when you run out of charge and need to make it home.

     

    Jon, I don't mean to be critical, but the Energizer Bunny is an all-electric bunny, not a hybrid.






  • 5.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2022 17:58
    I've been "window shopping" for an EV, while continuing to drive my 2019 gas-only RAV4. Previously I had a Prius and a Prius V. As per Jon Page's posts about the RAV4 Prime, the Boston Globe had a paragraph about that model today, quite positive. The VW iD.4 is a "full" EV that I test drove, and it's quite nice. About a 4 month wait list. There's a bunch of other EVs that one can put a deposit down on, but dealers don't have one on site to test drive. I was a bit intrigued by the brand new Toyota B74X, but the dealers doesn't have a show model available, and the dealer that I usually do business is selling them for $10K more than MSRP! 
    A seller's market!

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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  • 6.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2022 22:16
    I'm driving a 2021 Corolla Hybrid. I'm getting about 56mpg.  A gas fill up, about 11 gallons, will take me about 600 miles. I use it for both work and pleasure, but about 80% of mileage is work related. I keep a detailed record of work miles because work miles get deducted at tax time at about 58¢/mile. Since I'm leasing it I get all maintenance for free. I'm sure there's something wrong with my math, (which I have no doubt someone here will take me to task on), but as near as I can figure, not counting the cost of gas but including the lease payments, I feel like with the tax write off of 58¢/mi, I'm close to driving the car for free. Lots of trunk storage, and an action, if carefully set above the arm rests, will neatly sit across the back seat when they're folded down. OK, it's not a EV, but it still relies on battery power for a large percentage of it's mileage. I am posting here just for comparison.

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 7.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-08-2022 23:15

    Loren, I haven't totally worked the numbers, but I find the VW id.4 to be an excellent value for money. They also include three years of free charging if you use their own network.

    The other brand new EV which interests me is the Sono Sion, made in Munich, which is intended to be very practical transportation without fancy dancy stuff. It has a plain kind of blocky look because the top, the sides, the front and the back are all covered with solar cells, made sturdy with a coating to prevent their damage. People trying out this car, which just went into production, can sometimes get as much as 100 miles of range per week just from leaving the car in the sun. One reason to keep it plain and each one the same color is to lower the costs of production. The car also has an app which enables the owner to plug it into the house to use the power for domestic needs, and also to charge another car with it. It can be charged from a normal outlet, as well as getting charge from another car.








  • 8.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 01:30
    From what I've seen, for now at least, the most economical car is the one you own. I'm working on squeezing every last mile out of my little 2006 Chevy Aveo. Last year I paid more than the value of the car to repair it. And it was worth it.

    Our family car right now is a Prius V (basically a wagon). It only gets 40mpg but that's better than a mini van and it has tons of space in the back. I'm totally sold on Prius. Its predecessor was also a Prius (1st generation) that we drove to 300k miles and then traded for the V because we needed more space. The V has around 240k miles and I fully expect to get at least another 100k out of it.

    For our next commuter car, I hope to get a Prius Prime plugin. The EV battery range is quite short: only 25 miles, but shaving that off a daily commute will add up. That's 25 miles per day, or over 6,000 miles per year that aren't adding wear and tear to the already long-lasting engine. And over $600/year saved on gas. Does that make it worth the extra upfront cost? I haven't run the numbers yet.

    The other consideration is the tax credits you get for buying an EV. Those are finicky, and change depending on the make, model, and your state. You could get up to $7500 off the cost of a new EV or $4000 off a used one, depending on if congress passes their "inflation" bill. States may have their own credits too. Washington waives their sales tax on EVs with a certain battery size. (Side note: Unfortunately the Prius Prime didn't make the cut, which is why you can't buy a new plug-in hybrid in Washington...Toyota sends them all elsewhere. You can't buy it in Oregon either, at least without paying an extra premium, because the dealers there are tired of people from Washington and California snapping up all their inventory before it even hits the floor.)

    I think used prices will come back to earth in a year or two, after the chip shortage and supply chain problems resolve and supply and demand find a better balance. Until then I'm hanging onto what I have.

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    Anthony Willey, RPT
    http://willeypianotuning.com
    http://pianometer.com
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  • 9.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-09-2022 05:56
    I agree keep what you have until it's no longer suitable. When I needed 4 wheel drive I got a used Toyota 4 runner. Life changes and I went to a Prius. 4 Runner sold for $2,000 with 450,000 miles on it.

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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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  • 10.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Posted 08-10-2022 09:54
    Anthony,

    I agree, my 2004 Toyota Matrix may not be for everyone and 30 MPG is not great but I have the luxury of restricting my travel distance and hours so I plan on driving it at least for the near future.

    I casually look at other cars of somewhat similar (medium-small) size and the one disappointment I have that I find in many models is the lack of "Fold Flat Seat-backs" (like the old station wagons had). I makes loading actions and other large/long items so much easier not having to deal with the hump and incline of the rear seat-back not folding flat. It might seem like a minor detail but alas, I'm resigned to the fact that that for way it looks now, I'll probably have to get by without it on my next car, whatever and whenever that is.
              
    Gary






  • 11.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Posted 08-10-2022 11:38
    Driving in EV mode is pure luxury. As with any luxury, there is a cost involved. The extent of the luxury you can afford dictates if you get a status symbol or utilitarian vehicle.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 12.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2022 13:25

    It'll take me a few years, saving up, because I want to buy an EV with cash instead of a loan, but I think that the SONO SION might be an excellent value for money everyday transportation vehicle, as they have planned for it to be. They are talking about making millions of them so many ordinary people can own one. I hope they do.






  • 13.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Posted 08-10-2022 14:03
    Susan and Petrus,

    Thanks!

    I'm putting those vehicles on my "Next car shopping list".

    Gary 







  • 14.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Posted 08-10-2022 15:37
    If it comes true, I'll want one: https://aptera.us/vehicle/

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    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
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  • 15.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-10-2022 13:23

    The SONO SION, newly in production, not available here for awhile, looks square and blocky due to being covered all over in solar cells, but it also has a rear seat folding totally flat, making a huge trunk area with no threshold in the rear to get over. And under the large flat area there's more storage space. Has a ton of room, plus a certain number of free miles provided by sunlight. Like most electrics, it starts up fast. While not a race car, it can manage 85 miles per hour on the freeway.






  • 16.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Posted 08-10-2022 15:34
    Let me put a plug in for a Plug-In Hybrid. You have the luxury of electric and the convenience of gasoline. Earlier this week when I had time to plug in often, I ran solely on electricity. Since I don't have a garage, plugging in is not recommended in wet weather so I've been driving yesterday and today on gas. Since the battery is minimal, I reset the mileage and I'm getting 48 mpg in HV mode. I can plug in on Friday when the weather clears and I have the time. In the meantime, I'm running on gas. The best of both worlds.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
    mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
    http://www.pianocapecod.com
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  • 17.  RE: EV's - On Topic!!!

    Posted 08-11-2022 11:10
    My all around car that I drive is a 2020 Kia Soul.  It has enough room in the back (with seats folded down) to haul any sort of action.  I usually drive the speed limit and get about 42 mpg overall city and interstate.  I have looked at the EVs, but the sticker price is scaring me away right now as my car is fully paid for.  :-)

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    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
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