Pianotech

Back to discussions
Expand all | Collapse all

Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

  • 1.  Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2024 09:50

    https://www.morningstar.com/news/business-wire/20240624583426/fideress-research-uncovers-potential-anticompetitive-effects-in-the-grand-piano-market



    ------------------------------
    John Minor
    The Piano Shop Inc
    Champaign IL
    thepianoshopcu@gmail.com
    www.thepianoshopcu.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2024 10:10

    Not to mention their monopolistic approach to restricting the supply of Steinway replacement parts.  



    ------------------------------
    David Stanwood
    stanwoodpiano.com
    stanwood@tiac.net
    508-693-1583
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Posted 06-25-2024 10:38

    Here is more information 

    https://fideres.com/are-piano-buyers-being-played_/



    ------------------------------
    Tim Michaels
    pianotechtim@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2024 22:21

    This article seems as if it was AI generated. 

     I have my own opinions of what Steinway and Sons has done over the years, but that's not here nor there.  They have done what businesses have always done, which is to make as much profit as possible.  It's called Capitalism.  Just like Kleenex, everything else is just tissue.  Steinway has always built a top-tier piano, with no expense withheld, and marketed it better than anyone else.  Is that a surprise?  They have tried to corner the market in every way possible, and commanded prices that only a certain sector can afford.  If they work a deal with schools and conservatories to give discounts, isn't that good business?  I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary in this article, nor anything sinister, unethical, or immoral.  And they aren't the only ones commanding hefty prices.  In fact, there are pianos that cost a lot more, but have less market share.  Is that bad for the consumer?  Are they stifling sales of other pianos, sending them out of business?  No.  We should be lamenting the influx of cheap pianos from Korea and China, which has effectively shut down many of our own US-based manufacturers, and put most of our rebuilding shops out of business.  If Steinway had cut prices to the bone and put the more expensive brands on notice, just to garner market share, would we not have the same opinion that they are being unfair?  As much as we might want to demon-ize their "unfair" business practices, with high prices, inroads with schools and venues, I can't see anything that I'd want to petition some government entity to impose sanctions.  At least for the moment, we have a free country.  And anyone with a desire to create a piano company is free to do so, and wrestle with the established piano manufacturers.  Instead, I see them maintaining a high standard of quality and value that keep competitors working hard to match.  If you want to buy a diamond, you have to pay the price.  DeBeers has done a similar business model, even if it's to sell a piece of polished rock.  Otherwise, cubic zirconia is a pal to a gal.  I see no point ragging on the one company that keeps a lot of us in business, even it it's just rebuilding them or tuning.  If you can't afford one, buy something else.  No one is forcing you.

    On 6/25/2024 7:37 AM, Timothy Michaels via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    010001904fd4aedd-57171460-9a90-4bb6-add0-1119f7244fb2-000000@email.amazonses.com">
    Here is more information fideres.com/are-piano-buyers-being-played_ ------------------------------ Tim Michaels pianotechtim@gmail.com ------... -posted to the "Pianotech" community



    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2024 17:10

    Paul: I don't agree with that attitude.  Reminds me of "America, love it or leave it".  How about change it.  Anti-monopoly legislation is exactly what keeps capitalism from getting out of hand.  There's a difference between trying to increase market share and using that monopoly to undermine fair trade practices.  I don't know what we should expect from someone who made billions shorting the housing market in 2008 but that's what it is.  Steinway, btw, has not always made a superior product, they've had periods where their manufacturing had problems and even with these skyrocketing prices the consistency of manufacturing (take a look at touchweight for example) is all over the place.  Why don't they use that high profit margin to make a more consistent product or spend more time on the pre-shipment details to justify those prices and less of that profit suing or threatening to sue rebuilders who offer high quality rebuilding services.  I think the answer is obvious, it's an attempt to muscle into the competitive rebuilding market by intimidation and not by, necessarily, producing a better product.   



    ------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2024 16:01

    What about right to repair laws?



    ------------------------------
    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2024 17:31

    The fideres.com story is certainly a gumbo of information. Interesting that they are using some data from S&S promotional literature obtained at a used piano store.  They also conflate sales of S&S pianos with revenue from Steinway Inc.'s many other holdings. 

    Given that the world is producing over 600,000 pianos a year, Steinway's 2,500, both NY and Germany, should be kept in perspective. 

    One thing is certain, in terms of branding, Steinway is certainly one of the most successful in modern history. 



    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Posted 06-25-2024 17:42
    Hi, Steven,

    Also appropriate to note is that production in both NY and Hamburg has long been adjusted to ensure what amounts to annual sell-outs.

    Kind regards.

    Horace




      Original Message


    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2024 17:57

    Horace, another thing that boggles my mind is that apparently one half of their sales in 2021 included their Spirio mechanisms. What can be made of that? Other than that cost is no object for their client base. 



    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Posted 06-25-2024 18:04
    Now, Steven...you know very well that there's nothing to see here...move along, please...

    This is part of why Foster's book should be required reading.

    Kind regards.

    Horace




      Original Message


    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2024 21:33

    Quote from article: "Steinway's market power is clear. In 2020, the company captured 39% of global acoustic piano sales"

    There is no way this can even be remotely true. If NY is producing about 1300 pianos annually, that's less than 5% of the 30,000 pianos sold in the United States. I tried to google what the annual sales of Boston and Essex are, but I wasn't finding much info. 

    When you read a factoid that is so obviously wrong and misleading, it's impossible to take the publication seriously. It makes me think of the 'Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect'



    ------------------------------
    Ryan Sowers RPT
    Olympia WA
    (360) 480-5648
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Posted 06-26-2024 01:06

    In 2020 the worldwide acoustic piano market was $822.7 million.

    76.3 percent of Steinway total sales( $416 million) were acoustic pianos. So Steinway acoustic piano sales in 2020 was a total of $317 million. $317million is 38% of the worldwide sales.

    The 38% is representing percent in sales as it states and makes no mention of quantity of pianos.



    ------------------------------
    Tim Michaels
    pianotechtim@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2024 01:39

    Tim, I think this is where Steinway pianos gets conflated with Steinway Musical Instruments Inc. which also includes Boston and Essex pianos, 4 different brands of brasswinds, 4 different brands of woodwinds, 3 brands of stringed instruments, Ludwig and Musser percussion, as well as Renner piano parts. This list may not be up to date. 

    As I pointed out earlier, worldwide over 600,000 pianos are being manufacturedt, Steinway's 3 piano brands represent a tiny fraction of that number. Yamaha claims to make "upwards of 100,000 pianos every year." Samick produces 50,000.

    Btw, Paul, interesting observation about wondering if the article is AI generated. I guess we have to be wary of that these days.



    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Posted 06-26-2024 02:02

    You are right.  Things are getting lumped together in those numbers. 
    This Initial Public Offering prospectus is some of the source material of the article. Very interesting read as I skim through sections. Only 1103 pages long. 

    http://pdf.secdatabase.com/2510/0001193125-23-073119.pdf



    ------------------------------
    Tim Michaels
    pianotechtim@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2024 07:40

    Remember that Steinway is now a private company. Not sure if Steinway Musical Instruments is still relevant.  Perhaps someone can

    clarify.



    ------------------------------
    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-26-2024 18:50

    Fideres is an economic research firm targeting law firms with information that can lead to profitable litigation. If for instance someone were to want to sue Steinway for anti-competitive practices they might hire Fideres to provide data to help them make the case. In this case I suspect Mr. Paulson's legal team would swat this one down in less than a day. Not mentioned in the article are the higher prices that Fazzioli and Bosendorfer (subsidiary of Yamaha) charge for their 9 foot or larger pianos than Steinway charges for a model D.

    The piano market has gotten steadily smaller in the past 40 years and Steinway has done a good job vertically integrating their manufacturing chain. The purchases of Kelly Plate, Kluge Keyboards and Renner made the company far less vulnerable to a supplier going out of business or being purchased by a hostile competitor. Cases in point would be American Felt and Filter, Herrburger Brooks and Pratt Read. 

    I agree that the company has made some unfortunate choices regarding action parts,decals and relationships with our profession in general. Our organization steadfastly refused to make any effort to entreat them to do otherwise at the time when it might have had an effect.

    Recently I had opportunity to service a new Bosendorfer 225 and as I pulled the action, a Kluge keyset and a Renner topstack and hammers, I thought to myself: Golly, there sure is a lot of Steinway in this here Bosendorfer. :>)



    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Fideres's Research Uncovers Potential Anticompetitive Effects in the Grand Piano Market

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-29-2024 00:19

    Anyone of us who read this article with more than a passing regard for accuracy would immediately sense that these numbers don't add up.  As Karl so astutely pointed out,  Fideres is in the business of supplying background for legal firms engaging in class actions, arbitrage and other forms of corporate warfare.  This article was written by a lawyer for another lawyer, neither of whom would have any experience with the real world of pianos.  

    In America we refer to attorneys as "lawyers" which gives the connotation that like "sawyers" who in olden times sawed wood, they "do" law.  Other languages would say "advocate" which gives a truer sense for what they are engaged in.  Lawyers represent both sides of an argument.  For most of us, life is full of simple dichotomies: good and bad, black and white, just and injust.   But there is nothing simplistic about the law; it has innumerable shades of gray and only in Hollywood movies does truth usually triumph in the end.  Any good lawyer would pride himself on his ability to argue his way out of an indefensible position and those who are truly gifted and quite without shame aspire to become politicians where they garner not only big bucks but popular acclaim for their rhetorical gymnastics.  

    This "research paper" was cobbled together--like who's gonna know the difference, we're all lawyers here, right?--with the first statistics they could grab to promote one side of an argument.  Perhaps Fideres is capable (given some real fiscal incentive) of producing something more resembling reality, but this is only what would be called in this brave new world "click-bait." And we clicked on it, didn't we?



    ------------------------------
    Cecil Snyder RPT
    Torrance CA
    (310) 542-7108
    ------------------------------

    Original Message