Pianotech

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

I do not approach regulation as let me set it to the manufacturer spec and see if it works. I look at how is the piano working and what needs to happen to make it work better. 

66-7 mm key height is not crazy especially if it is the entire keyboard (not just the middle) and there are very few paper punchings. It is better to have more room for the jacks to get out from under the butt and add punchings to control aftertouch than to have no room and bobbling hammers! 

Also most uprights like this come with these shims from the factory, if i saw that I would not assume them to be an issue. 

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

And (just to add a detail to Christina's comnents) if all other clearances and external markers are working okay (e.g., keyslip, keyblocks, fallboard, etc) I would leave things as they are. Why complicate your life for no good reason? 😕 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I do not approach regulation as let me set it to the manufacturer spec and see if it works. I look at how is the piano working and what needs to happen to make it work better. 

66-7 mm key height is not crazy especially if it is the entire keyboard (not just the middle) and there are very few paper punchings. It is better to have more room for the jacks to get out from under the butt and add punchings to control aftertouch than to have no room and bobbling hammers! 

Also most uprights like this come with these shims from the factory, if i saw that I would not assume them to be an issue. 

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Bobbling hammers due to not enough after touch. Two ways to cure. Increase dip, reduce blow. Y you seem focused on maintaining 44mm blow at all costs.

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Michael, 

in regards to your question "I wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others", the 4 fundamental regulation parameters of Blow B, Dip D, Letoff L and Aftertouch A are related in the action ratio R equation as R = (B-L)/(D-A).

R is fixed for any piano and usually about 5. In other words the ratio of the net hammer travel to net key travel is about 5.

The actual value of R is not do important, it's only the fixed relationship between these 4 variables that's important.  R between 4.5 and 5.2 is not unusual across different pianos.

So from the equation you can see that if you increase letoff L, say from 1mm to 1.5.mm,  then you need to increase aftertouch A to fit the action ratio for that piano.

I hope I'm not overdoing this explanation; once you grasp the reason for this relationship of the 4 basic parameters, you can get flexible with you regulation to suit your desired dip and aftertouch.

After that, back-check, key height, Jack travel, etc, will soon fall into place as you work your way through the regulation.

Always set some sample keys BEFORE changing anything. When your happy, take the plunge and regulate across the keyboard.

Cheers

Peter

Downunder pianos

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Michael-

See if your chapter can loan you a vertical action model. 

It helps a lot to see the action working from the side.

You can explore the range of possible specs, making sure you get efficient function for different key dip and hammer blow settings.

You can see the loss motion gap between the jack tip and the hammer butt.

Michael, 

in regards to your question "I wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others", the 4 fundamental regulation parameters of Blow B, Dip D, Letoff L and Aftertouch A are related in the action ratio R equation as R = (B-L)/(D-A).

R is fixed for any piano and usually about 5. In other words the ratio of the net hammer travel to net key travel is about 5.

The actual value of R is not do important, it's only the fixed relationship between these 4 variables that's important.  R between 4.5 and 5.2 is not unusual across different pianos.

So from the equation you can see that if you increase letoff L, say from 1mm to 1.5.mm,  then you need to increase aftertouch A to fit the action ratio for that piano.

I hope I'm not overdoing this explanation; once you grasp the reason for this relationship of the 4 basic parameters, you can get flexible with you regulation to suit your desired dip and aftertouch.

After that, back-check, key height, Jack travel, etc, will soon fall into place as you work your way through the regulation.

Always set some sample keys BEFORE changing anything. When your happy, take the plunge and regulate across the keyboard.

Cheers

Peter

Downunder pianos

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Michael-

See if your chapter can loan you a vertical action model. 

It helps a lot to see the action working from the side.

You can explore the range of possible specs, making sure you get efficient function for different key dip and hammer blow settings.

You can see the loss motion gap between the jack tip and the hammer butt.

Michael, 

in regards to your question "I wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others", the 4 fundamental regulation parameters of Blow B, Dip D, Letoff L and Aftertouch A are related in the action ratio R equation as R = (B-L)/(D-A).

R is fixed for any piano and usually about 5. In other words the ratio of the net hammer travel to net key travel is about 5.

The actual value of R is not do important, it's only the fixed relationship between these 4 variables that's important.  R between 4.5 and 5.2 is not unusual across different pianos.

So from the equation you can see that if you increase letoff L, say from 1mm to 1.5.mm,  then you need to increase aftertouch A to fit the action ratio for that piano.

I hope I'm not overdoing this explanation; once you grasp the reason for this relationship of the 4 basic parameters, you can get flexible with you regulation to suit your desired dip and aftertouch.

After that, back-check, key height, Jack travel, etc, will soon fall into place as you work your way through the regulation.

Always set some sample keys BEFORE changing anything. When your happy, take the plunge and regulate across the keyboard.

Cheers

Peter

Downunder pianos

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Michael, 

in regards to your question "I wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others", the 4 fundamental regulation parameters of Blow B, Dip D, Letoff L and Aftertouch A are related in the action ratio R equation as R = (B-L)/(D-A).

R is fixed for any piano and usually about 5. In other words the ratio of the net hammer travel to net key travel is about 5.

The actual value of R is not do important, it's only the fixed relationship between these 4 variables that's important.  R between 4.5 and 5.2 is not unusual across different pianos.

So from the equation you can see that if you increase letoff L, say from 1mm to 1.5.mm,  then you need to increase aftertouch A to fit the action ratio for that piano.

I hope I'm not overdoing this explanation; once you grasp the reason for this relationship of the 4 basic parameters, you can get flexible with you regulation to suit your desired dip and aftertouch.

After that, back-check, key height, Jack travel, etc, will soon fall into place as you work your way through the regulation.

Always set some sample keys BEFORE changing anything. When your happy, take the plunge and regulate across the keyboard.

Cheers

Peter

Downunder pianos

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Thanks Peter. I 'understand' this- both theoretically and practically- at least on a fundamental level, and that understanding is certainly going to crystallize the more that I regulate. Which is part of the reason for making this thread and trying to aim as precisely as I can at what the manufacturer says 'spec' is- so that way I have a better feel for where/how/why certain adjustments may be out of sync with what the spec sheet says. 

I do wish I had a firmer grasp on how each spec interrelates with the others- as obviously there is more than one viable combination of adjustments for an acceptable regulation- that'll come with experience I guess. 

So far- the filed hammers seem to necessitate a closer blow distance - and I'm having trouble with bobbling if I keep let off as close as the 3mm and dip at 10.5- So the best compromise I can find so far is 65mm key height,  44mm blow, 11 dip and about 4mm let off- Though some hammers seem to want to bobble more than others

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:59
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael, 

In the end remember that any printed "specs" are simply a starting point/guideline. Ultimately we need to tailor this to these to the task at hand. In time (largely by making mistakes) we learn the limits of variability in these specs. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-23-2025 07:53
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Ed,

Did you forget to include the link? No video seen. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 22:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Key height is established by the back rail, where the back end of the key rests, and by the balance rail and punchings, which hold the key in its rest position. The front rail punchings limit the downward travel of the key. Keydip is the travel distance these adjustments allow. You could raise both the balance and front rails and the keydip would stay the same, or you could lower both, and the keydip would stay the same. Or you could make many adjustments, gross and subtle. Generally key height is established by the case parts near the keys. There must be enough difference between the proposed key height and the dip allowed by the front rail to give adequate key movement to cycle the action.

Ultimately the keydip established how much energy of motion you can use to operate the system. This energy is delivered to the action by the capstan.

Keydip/capstan rise + energy in.

If the action is properly regulated, the blow distance establishes how much energy of motion will be needed to operate the action. For proper action cycling, the energy input and energy usage must be well-balanced, and the action must not have "gaps," i.e. lost motion.

Generally we begin by creating an established key dip, usually 3/8" or 1cm.  Then we must adjust the action to work with that amount of key motion. Ultimately we decide this by testing our favorite blow distance to see if we can get a good cycling result from the action.

I strongly recommend to begin by working with one note in octave 4 until you get good function, then try to duplicate it octaves 2,3,5 &6. This will tell you a lot about the piano, including any irregularities. From there you can make your proposed specs. Test by putting back all the case parts to be sure you have clearance of the keys. Then remove the case parts, set key height across the piano and set blow distance, then make all the regulation adjustments in between.

Study this video to get a sense of how all the action parts interact for efficient response.

Hang in there!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-22-2025 20:40
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

The last regulation I did was after I filed the hammers. I'm realizing now how important it is to actually WRITE DOWN the various specs arrived at. Lesson learned here. 

I managed to get it playing good- (thanks to the last regulation) (very happy with it as someone who has played piano forever) but how 'correct' the regulation was from a piano tech standpoint I still don't have the experience to judge. 

The only 'issue' that might perhaps point at the larger puzzle that I am aware of would be the relatively high stacks of punchings needed to get dip correct. 

Removing the shim material has caused things to sit down pretty close to the 65mm that the action handbook recommends- just needed a few punchings to get to where I wanted to be- but now i'm running into the issue of having some pretty major hammer bobbling unless I increase dip to around 12-13mm. Only had a chance to play with it for a few hours before work today- Planning on getting into it more tomorrow.

Can someone explain to me the relationship between key height and key dip? 

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 21:21
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Michael-

Your diagnosis should have been made before removing things and turning screws. When you meet the piano, it is full of information. All of the adjustments, punchings added, and so on record decisions made, for good (or bad) reasons. Once you change things, you have lost that information.

In particular, I'd want to know how well the action was working when you first met the piano, and if there were problems, were they similar in many areas or across the whole keyboard? For example, shallow keydip, weak blow, incomplete letoff or late checking, no aftertouch and shallow damper lift are all signs of a low balance rail. A high balance rail would give virtually opposite problems.

Then I would test regulate just a few notes, leaving the other notes alone, trying to only make changes that I can reverse until I have a clear idea of what the action needs.

Meanwhile that doesn't look like factory shimming. The best hypothesis I can offer is that the rail was low and someone shimmed it, then the keybed or case changed, probably due to humidity, and now the shimmed rail is too high. That's just my first guess, based on my experiences with pianos in a seasonally humid environment. You might shim the rail to a comfortable height, but leave the shims sticking out so you can pull them easily if the keybed rises.

Since you will be to some degree establishing the working specs, I'd suggest test regulating four notes across the piano to decide what to do, then shimming the balance rail to meet a comfortable height with room for a few punchings.

Good luck!

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 20:10
From: Peter Grey
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thats a lot of shim. Hmmm

When I see stuff like that I initially assume there's a reason for it. I'd like to find out that reason before doing anything drastic. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:46
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Photos

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 19:34
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I removed the shims, and it seems to me that there's an awful lot of shim material there- around 3mm. Is that really factory standard?

4mm on the back rail.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 17:29
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Thanks for the responses.

A follow up question- How would I know then, by examining the action- whether I would want to lower it (by removing the shims in this case?) What signs should I look for?

Part of my initial thought process is that everything is high across the board- and thats with very few punchings on the balance rail- and the keys aren't perfectly level as it is (not terrible but needs addressing) - thus any attempt at leveling the keys is going to mean adding more punchings, thus making everything even higher than it already is. 

If there's some wiggle room, than that's good to know- but how much? I've already got blow distance set to spec (47mm)- and I assume the action handbook is a pretty good set of guidelines to start from.

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448

Original Message:
Sent: 08-21-2025 12:53
From: Keith Roberts
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

Original Message:
Sent: 8/20/2025 11:32:00 AM
From: Michael Baker
Subject: How strictly to follow manufacturers keyboard regulation specs / keyframe shimming

I'm doing a full regulation on my Kohler and Cambell (samick) Kc-131     51 inch vertical for the second time 

1st time using any actual manufacturers specifications, as found in the ptg action handbook, using Samick's options as theyre the actual owner of the brand

I took Lucy Urlachers all day vertical regulation class at the convention (which was excellent btw)- and have been following her process outlined in the class

I'm at the point of leveling keys, and I find that across the board, everything is high- around 1.3-2mm as compared to the specs found in the handbook- which state I'm looking for 65mm. The measurement I got from the keys is having removed the balance rail punchings and using the thinnest rail felt that I have

Have a few questions here

1. I recall reading somewhere that not all manufacturers measure keyheight using the same measurements- some from keybed to top of keyslip, others keybed to bottom of keylip- can I get some clarification here?

2. Upon inspection of the keyframe, there is shimming material underneathe it- if I wanted to remove that, is it as simple as undoing the screws in the keyframe a bit to beable to pull it out and then screwing them down again? How tight? 

3. Lucy mentions in a video on youtube describing the process of regulation that its good to start with manufaucturers specs but that their not the end all be all 'theres a million reasons specifications might not work'

How do I go about determining when to go by them and when it might be a case to disregard them?

------------------------------
Michael Baker
Waldoboro ME
(207) 975-2448
------------------------------