Pianotech

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

I suspect that the tuning pin holes were not reamed prior to restringing with oversize pins.  I once serviced a 1857 Steinway concert grand that had the most awful

jumpy pins. Nearly impossible to tune!

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Several possibilities.

1. The old holes are glazed.  Reaming in advance of installing new pins can help.  Not sure what you can do after the fact.
2. The new oversized pin is bottoming out on the compression shelf at the bottom of the hole.  The first pin compresses the block when it's driven in.  That creates a narrowing of the hole at the bottom of the hole where the pin ends.  If the new o/s pin bottoms out on that narrower shelf you'll get tremendous friction there and that can cause problems. To avoid, drill out that shelf before installing the new o/s pin or use a shorter pin.  The fix would be to uncouple the string and back out the pin a bit.  Lots of work and danger of creating flag-polling issues.
3. The new o/s pin is just too tight.  Going from a 2/0 to a 4/0 can sometimes create a problem.  Remedy is to back off the tension and then work the tuning pin back and forth 10 - 12 times (1/3 to 1/2 turns), until it loosens up.  

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

David,

Your #2 possible diagnosis is one I've never heard before but it now makes a lot of sense. I've never felt one as bad as this, and it being global from bass to treble is also rather unique. Thank you for this insight. Exactly why I posted this. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Several possibilities.

1. The old holes are glazed.  Reaming in advance of installing new pins can help.  Not sure what you can do after the fact.
2. The new oversized pin is bottoming out on the compression shelf at the bottom of the hole.  The first pin compresses the block when it's driven in.  That creates a narrowing of the hole at the bottom of the hole where the pin ends.  If the new o/s pin bottoms out on that narrower shelf you'll get tremendous friction there and that can cause problems. To avoid, drill out that shelf before installing the new o/s pin or use a shorter pin.  The fix would be to uncouple the string and back out the pin a bit.  Lots of work and danger of creating flag-polling issues.
3. The new o/s pin is just too tight.  Going from a 2/0 to a 4/0 can sometimes create a problem.  Remedy is to back off the tension and then work the tuning pin back and forth 10 - 12 times (1/3 to 1/2 turns), until it loosens up.  

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Peter

You might be able to test to see if that's the case by uncoupling one string and backing it out a full turn, or more, and see if that solves the problem.  

I always drill out that shelf when installing O/S pins, if not use a shorter pin. Typically, when I go up from 2/0 I go to a lo-torque 3.5/0.  So first I just insert a #3 drill bit by hand (not attached to a drill--just to test the fit).  The drill should insert easily without binding on the side of the hole and you will feel where it bottoms out at that shelf.  Using a hand held drill, insert the bit without the drill on until it hits that shelf, then pull the trigger and just punch out that shelf.  That should do it.  If you are replacing tuning pin bushings, do that before you insert the bushings.  

David,

Your #2 possible diagnosis is one I've never heard before but it now makes a lot of sense. I've never felt one as bad as this, and it being global from bass to treble is also rather unique. Thank you for this insight. Exactly why I posted this. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Several possibilities.

1. The old holes are glazed.  Reaming in advance of installing new pins can help.  Not sure what you can do after the fact.
2. The new oversized pin is bottoming out on the compression shelf at the bottom of the hole.  The first pin compresses the block when it's driven in.  That creates a narrowing of the hole at the bottom of the hole where the pin ends.  If the new o/s pin bottoms out on that narrower shelf you'll get tremendous friction there and that can cause problems. To avoid, drill out that shelf before installing the new o/s pin or use a shorter pin.  The fix would be to uncouple the string and back out the pin a bit.  Lots of work and danger of creating flag-polling issues.
3. The new o/s pin is just too tight.  Going from a 2/0 to a 4/0 can sometimes create a problem.  Remedy is to back off the tension and then work the tuning pin back and forth 10 - 12 times (1/3 to 1/2 turns), until it loosens up.  

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Thank you. I will retain this for the future. In this case there will not be any "repair" effort AFAIK as it really should get replaced at this point.  My re-pinnings also get the Lo-torq pins. They are the best IMO. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter

You might be able to test to see if that's the case by uncoupling one string and backing it out a full turn, or more, and see if that solves the problem.  

I always drill out that shelf when installing O/S pins, if not use a shorter pin. Typically, when I go up from 2/0 I go to a lo-torque 3.5/0.  So first I just insert a #3 drill bit by hand (not attached to a drill--just to test the fit).  The drill should insert easily without binding on the side of the hole and you will feel where it bottoms out at that shelf.  Using a hand held drill, insert the bit without the drill on until it hits that shelf, then pull the trigger and just punch out that shelf.  That should do it.  If you are replacing tuning pin bushings, do that before you insert the bushings.  

David,

Your #2 possible diagnosis is one I've never heard before but it now makes a lot of sense. I've never felt one as bad as this, and it being global from bass to treble is also rather unique. Thank you for this insight. Exactly why I posted this. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Several possibilities.

1. The old holes are glazed.  Reaming in advance of installing new pins can help.  Not sure what you can do after the fact.
2. The new oversized pin is bottoming out on the compression shelf at the bottom of the hole.  The first pin compresses the block when it's driven in.  That creates a narrowing of the hole at the bottom of the hole where the pin ends.  If the new o/s pin bottoms out on that narrower shelf you'll get tremendous friction there and that can cause problems. To avoid, drill out that shelf before installing the new o/s pin or use a shorter pin.  The fix would be to uncouple the string and back out the pin a bit.  Lots of work and danger of creating flag-polling issues.
3. The new o/s pin is just too tight.  Going from a 2/0 to a 4/0 can sometimes create a problem.  Remedy is to back off the tension and then work the tuning pin back and forth 10 - 12 times (1/3 to 1/2 turns), until it loosens up.  

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

What are Lo-torq pins?

Thank you. I will retain this for the future. In this case there will not be any "repair" effort AFAIK as it really should get replaced at this point.  My re-pinnings also get the Lo-torq pins. They are the best IMO. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter

You might be able to test to see if that's the case by uncoupling one string and backing it out a full turn, or more, and see if that solves the problem.  

I always drill out that shelf when installing O/S pins, if not use a shorter pin. Typically, when I go up from 2/0 I go to a lo-torque 3.5/0.  So first I just insert a #3 drill bit by hand (not attached to a drill--just to test the fit).  The drill should insert easily without binding on the side of the hole and you will feel where it bottoms out at that shelf.  Using a hand held drill, insert the bit without the drill on until it hits that shelf, then pull the trigger and just punch out that shelf.  That should do it.  If you are replacing tuning pin bushings, do that before you insert the bushings.  

David,

Your #2 possible diagnosis is one I've never heard before but it now makes a lot of sense. I've never felt one as bad as this, and it being global from bass to treble is also rather unique. Thank you for this insight. Exactly why I posted this. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Several possibilities.

1. The old holes are glazed.  Reaming in advance of installing new pins can help.  Not sure what you can do after the fact.
2. The new oversized pin is bottoming out on the compression shelf at the bottom of the hole.  The first pin compresses the block when it's driven in.  That creates a narrowing of the hole at the bottom of the hole where the pin ends.  If the new o/s pin bottoms out on that narrower shelf you'll get tremendous friction there and that can cause problems. To avoid, drill out that shelf before installing the new o/s pin or use a shorter pin.  The fix would be to uncouple the string and back out the pin a bit.  Lots of work and danger of creating flag-polling issues.
3. The new o/s pin is just too tight.  Going from a 2/0 to a 4/0 can sometimes create a problem.  Remedy is to back off the tension and then work the tuning pin back and forth 10 - 12 times (1/3 to 1/2 turns), until it loosens up.  

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Description from Schaff:

"Patented Lo-Torq Tuning Pins allow restringing in the original pinblock using oversized pins, but keeping the head a tuning-friendly 2/0. Great for restringing entire piano or a bass section only."

The head including the area of the string coil is the same dimensions as a 2/0 pin to avoid the coarser tuning feel of an oversized pin. I have no experience but the other day my mentor Gary Telleen described why he sometimes uses them.

What are Lo-torq pins?

Thank you. I will retain this for the future. In this case there will not be any "repair" effort AFAIK as it really should get replaced at this point.  My re-pinnings also get the Lo-torq pins. They are the best IMO. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter

You might be able to test to see if that's the case by uncoupling one string and backing it out a full turn, or more, and see if that solves the problem.  

I always drill out that shelf when installing O/S pins, if not use a shorter pin. Typically, when I go up from 2/0 I go to a lo-torque 3.5/0.  So first I just insert a #3 drill bit by hand (not attached to a drill--just to test the fit).  The drill should insert easily without binding on the side of the hole and you will feel where it bottoms out at that shelf.  Using a hand held drill, insert the bit without the drill on until it hits that shelf, then pull the trigger and just punch out that shelf.  That should do it.  If you are replacing tuning pin bushings, do that before you insert the bushings.  

David,

Your #2 possible diagnosis is one I've never heard before but it now makes a lot of sense. I've never felt one as bad as this, and it being global from bass to treble is also rather unique. Thank you for this insight. Exactly why I posted this. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Several possibilities.

1. The old holes are glazed.  Reaming in advance of installing new pins can help.  Not sure what you can do after the fact.
2. The new oversized pin is bottoming out on the compression shelf at the bottom of the hole.  The first pin compresses the block when it's driven in.  That creates a narrowing of the hole at the bottom of the hole where the pin ends.  If the new o/s pin bottoms out on that narrower shelf you'll get tremendous friction there and that can cause problems. To avoid, drill out that shelf before installing the new o/s pin or use a shorter pin.  The fix would be to uncouple the string and back out the pin a bit.  Lots of work and danger of creating flag-polling issues.
3. The new o/s pin is just too tight.  Going from a 2/0 to a 4/0 can sometimes create a problem.  Remedy is to back off the tension and then work the tuning pin back and forth 10 - 12 times (1/3 to 1/2 turns), until it loosens up.  

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

There's an article in the PTJ somewhere that discusses the mechanics behind them. Great design.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Description from Schaff:

"Patented Lo-Torq Tuning Pins allow restringing in the original pinblock using oversized pins, but keeping the head a tuning-friendly 2/0. Great for restringing entire piano or a bass section only."

The head including the area of the string coil is the same dimensions as a 2/0 pin to avoid the coarser tuning feel of an oversized pin. I have no experience but the other day my mentor Gary Telleen described why he sometimes uses them.

What are Lo-torq pins?

Thank you. I will retain this for the future. In this case there will not be any "repair" effort AFAIK as it really should get replaced at this point.  My re-pinnings also get the Lo-torq pins. They are the best IMO. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter

You might be able to test to see if that's the case by uncoupling one string and backing it out a full turn, or more, and see if that solves the problem.  

I always drill out that shelf when installing O/S pins, if not use a shorter pin. Typically, when I go up from 2/0 I go to a lo-torque 3.5/0.  So first I just insert a #3 drill bit by hand (not attached to a drill--just to test the fit).  The drill should insert easily without binding on the side of the hole and you will feel where it bottoms out at that shelf.  Using a hand held drill, insert the bit without the drill on until it hits that shelf, then pull the trigger and just punch out that shelf.  That should do it.  If you are replacing tuning pin bushings, do that before you insert the bushings.  

David,

Your #2 possible diagnosis is one I've never heard before but it now makes a lot of sense. I've never felt one as bad as this, and it being global from bass to treble is also rather unique. Thank you for this insight. Exactly why I posted this. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Several possibilities.

1. The old holes are glazed.  Reaming in advance of installing new pins can help.  Not sure what you can do after the fact.
2. The new oversized pin is bottoming out on the compression shelf at the bottom of the hole.  The first pin compresses the block when it's driven in.  That creates a narrowing of the hole at the bottom of the hole where the pin ends.  If the new o/s pin bottoms out on that narrower shelf you'll get tremendous friction there and that can cause problems. To avoid, drill out that shelf before installing the new o/s pin or use a shorter pin.  The fix would be to uncouple the string and back out the pin a bit.  Lots of work and danger of creating flag-polling issues.
3. The new o/s pin is just too tight.  Going from a 2/0 to a 4/0 can sometimes create a problem.  Remedy is to back off the tension and then work the tuning pin back and forth 10 - 12 times (1/3 to 1/2 turns), until it loosens up.  

I'm dealing with a 110 plus year old pinblock in a Mason & Hamlin AA that has 4/0 pins in it. They are TERRIBLY jumpy and sticking making it almost impossible to do any fine tuning work. 

Absolutely this pinblock needs replacement, however has anyone ever figured out for sure what causes this symptom? (I've heard theories). It's been a long time since I dealt with one this bad. Curious if anyone knows it's cause. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------