CAUT

I watched both videos. I marveled at the second one (that finally we get to witness the attack phase), but was not convinced by the first one (proposing that it's the attack where we should make our judgements about the tuning). I can believe that there are some technicians who have the speed of response to decide what a string needs in 0.5 seconds; among all of us, threre's an endless variety about how to tune. But as a practical matter, were I one of these people, I think I'd still wish to base my reaction not on the chaos of the attack (BTW, who's behavior varies significantly with the force of impact) instead what it settles out to for the after-prompt sound. It would be like basing your expectation that your toddler would grow up to be a responsible, happy citizen, only on the frequency and power of their tantrums. 

I've watched the development of PianoScope over the last two years. Frank has consistently asked for technician response and responded quickly to many suggestions. The app is extremely adaptable to user preferences.

This particular video was made with a Fazioli piano. I don't know to what extent the variables so nicely measured would be audible. I certainly don't hear the pitch drop of a few hundredths of a cent.

But what if the same tests were performed on the lowest plainwire string of a Yamaha GH-1?

Could this program in effect offer a way to quantify the poor behavior of a foreshortened scale or the irregular impedance of a poorly made soundboard?

Could it measure and demonstrate the improvements made by adding riblets or bridge weights?

Hi Ed:

I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.

I've watched the development of PianoScope over the last two years. Frank has consistently asked for technician response and responded quickly to many suggestions. The app is extremely adaptable to user preferences.

This particular video was made with a Fazioli piano. I don't know to what extent the variables so nicely measured would be audible. I certainly don't hear the pitch drop of a few hundredths of a cent.

But what if the same tests were performed on the lowest plainwire string of a Yamaha GH-1?

Could this program in effect offer a way to quantify the poor behavior of a foreshortened scale or the irregular impedance of a poorly made soundboard?

Could it measure and demonstrate the improvements made by adding riblets or bridge weights?

Paul:

I've used PianoScope since its early days. Frank kindly made the display more adjustable in response to my request. 

I especially like being able to adjust the display to the tonal "noisiness' of the piano. For example, you can adjust the "line" indicator to drop out when the pitch is within, say 0.5 cents but continue to adjust the pin using the strobe for, say, a very slow upward drift. On a fine piano, I might set the line for 0.2 cents. On a weary piano with lots of string noise, perhaps at 1 cent. I will continue to work with the strobe display, but the line has told me I'm in the ballpark.

Being able to adjust the thickness of the red line, the scale of the display and the strobe for speed and fuzziness helps me with some visual perception problems. I think we all have our perceptual quirks, and the adaptability of PianoScope helps us find the display that minimizes visual strain.

As I am retired I don't have many opportunities to use PianoScope, but I can say it is also very adaptable to harpsichord tuning.

Hi Ed:

I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.

I've watched the development of PianoScope over the last two years. Frank has consistently asked for technician response and responded quickly to many suggestions. The app is extremely adaptable to user preferences.

This particular video was made with a Fazioli piano. I don't know to what extent the variables so nicely measured would be audible. I certainly don't hear the pitch drop of a few hundredths of a cent.

But what if the same tests were performed on the lowest plainwire string of a Yamaha GH-1?

Could this program in effect offer a way to quantify the poor behavior of a foreshortened scale or the irregular impedance of a poorly made soundboard?

Could it measure and demonstrate the improvements made by adding riblets or bridge weights?

Hi Ed:

I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.

I've watched the development of PianoScope over the last two years. Frank has consistently asked for technician response and responded quickly to many suggestions. The app is extremely adaptable to user preferences.

This particular video was made with a Fazioli piano. I don't know to what extent the variables so nicely measured would be audible. I certainly don't hear the pitch drop of a few hundredths of a cent.

But what if the same tests were performed on the lowest plainwire string of a Yamaha GH-1?

Could this program in effect offer a way to quantify the poor behavior of a foreshortened scale or the irregular impedance of a poorly made soundboard?

Could it measure and demonstrate the improvements made by adding riblets or bridge weights?

I'm reminded of the quote "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."

The app does a great job of snipping out a tiny piece of information. It would be useful to know if tuning using that snippet results in a better sound. But there's so much more going on when a note plays that is not shown.

The TuneLab spectrum display (or any RTA spectrum display) shows pitch and volume over time, which greatly helps me make my own best judgement, especially in tasks like measuring a pitch for a tuning exam. The SAT LED display similarly presents a small subset of the available information.

When aircraft altimeters were first digitized, the numbers would snap to their new values, like a thermometer or any other simple meter. Pilots soon discovered that the old rolling wheels of digits gave additional critical information, specifically a fine display of the rate of change of altitude. Digital altimeters were changed to mimic the old rolling wheels.

Secondly, I disagree with the value of tuning to a tenth of a cent. That's about as useful as tuning to a hundredth of a cent, or mowing a lawn to a tenth of a millimeter. It would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge: when you get to one end, go back and start over, because it's all changed.

The one part of the piano where focusing on a time slice would be useful are the notes beginning an octave above the highest damper. I wish TuneLab would freeze the display before the sympathetic vibration of the lower notes kicks in (like when tuning F7 to C8). I usually lay a mute on those lower strings (thanks to Don Mannino's class).

--Cy--

------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Fairfax, VA
http://www.shusterpiano.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 02-17-2023 19:41
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

Hi Ed:

I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com


Original Message:
Sent: 02-17-2023 12:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I've watched the development of PianoScope over the last two years. Frank has consistently asked for technician response and responded quickly to many suggestions. The app is extremely adaptable to user preferences.

This particular video was made with a Fazioli piano. I don't know to what extent the variables so nicely measured would be audible. I certainly don't hear the pitch drop of a few hundredths of a cent.

But what if the same tests were performed on the lowest plainwire string of a Yamaha GH-1?

Could this program in effect offer a way to quantify the poor behavior of a foreshortened scale or the irregular impedance of a poorly made soundboard?

Could it measure and demonstrate the improvements made by adding riblets or bridge weights?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

I had about an hour long conversation with steve yesterday and tried to help him (as a scientist) to understand that many of us tuners (who are definitely NOT scientists) have come to believe that tuning actual "perfecto" unison is not necessarily the best thing from a musical standpoint. True, we certainly don't want beats in our unisons, however slight deviations from absolute phase unity can lend a rather more pleasant sound (which the coupling action of the bridge structure then unifies in the aftersound), and can actually improve sustain and melodic color, etc.

After some discussion he seemed to understand this (though not actually agreeing, he fully understood what I was saying).  I indicated that I felt this software tweak could have some value in doing this little unison tweak. I also indicated that there are some pianos that won't tolerate any deviation from "perfect" wherein Frank's feature could have value as well. 

He was surprised to learn that we analog tuners actually have analog ways of reproducing this digital feature to a very close degree (maybe not one tenth of a cent but certainly in the ballpark), and have had this ability for a long time but we don't write scholarly peer-reviewed articles on it (like he's used to in his field). 

We had a good chat. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 02-18-2023 08:40
From: Cy Shuster
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I'm reminded of the quote "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."

The app does a great job of snipping out a tiny piece of information. It would be useful to know if tuning using that snippet results in a better sound. But there's so much more going on when a note plays that is not shown.

The TuneLab spectrum display (or any RTA spectrum display) shows pitch and volume over time, which greatly helps me make my own best judgement, especially in tasks like measuring a pitch for a tuning exam. The SAT LED display similarly presents a small subset of the available information.

When aircraft altimeters were first digitized, the numbers would snap to their new values, like a thermometer or any other simple meter. Pilots soon discovered that the old rolling wheels of digits gave additional critical information, specifically a fine display of the rate of change of altitude. Digital altimeters were changed to mimic the old rolling wheels.

Secondly, I disagree with the value of tuning to a tenth of a cent. That's about as useful as tuning to a hundredth of a cent, or mowing a lawn to a tenth of a millimeter. It would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge: when you get to one end, go back and start over, because it's all changed.

The one part of the piano where focusing on a time slice would be useful are the notes beginning an octave above the highest damper. I wish TuneLab would freeze the display before the sympathetic vibration of the lower notes kicks in (like when tuning F7 to C8). I usually lay a mute on those lower strings (thanks to Don Mannino's class).

--Cy--

------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Fairfax, VA
http://www.shusterpiano.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 02-17-2023 19:41
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

Hi Ed:

I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

I had about an hour long conversation with steve yesterday and tried to help him (as a scientist) to understand that many of us tuners (who are definitely NOT scientists) have come to believe that tuning actual "perfecto" unison is not necessarily the best thing from a musical standpoint. True, we certainly don't want beats in our unisons, however slight deviations from absolute phase unity can lend a rather more pleasant sound (which the coupling action of the bridge structure then unifies in the aftersound), and can actually improve sustain and melodic color, etc.

After some discussion he seemed to understand this (though not actually agreeing, he fully understood what I was saying).  I indicated that I felt this software tweak could have some value in doing this little unison tweak. I also indicated that there are some pianos that won't tolerate any deviation from "perfect" wherein Frank's feature could have value as well. 

He was surprised to learn that we analog tuners actually have analog ways of reproducing this digital feature to a very close degree (maybe not one tenth of a cent but certainly in the ballpark), and have had this ability for a long time but we don't write scholarly peer-reviewed articles on it (like he's used to in his field). 

We had a good chat. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 02-18-2023 08:40
From: Cy Shuster
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I'm reminded of the quote "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."

The app does a great job of snipping out a tiny piece of information. It would be useful to know if tuning using that snippet results in a better sound. But there's so much more going on when a note plays that is not shown.

The TuneLab spectrum display (or any RTA spectrum display) shows pitch and volume over time, which greatly helps me make my own best judgement, especially in tasks like measuring a pitch for a tuning exam. The SAT LED display similarly presents a small subset of the available information.

When aircraft altimeters were first digitized, the numbers would snap to their new values, like a thermometer or any other simple meter. Pilots soon discovered that the old rolling wheels of digits gave additional critical information, specifically a fine display of the rate of change of altitude. Digital altimeters were changed to mimic the old rolling wheels.

Secondly, I disagree with the value of tuning to a tenth of a cent. That's about as useful as tuning to a hundredth of a cent, or mowing a lawn to a tenth of a millimeter. It would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge: when you get to one end, go back and start over, because it's all changed.

The one part of the piano where focusing on a time slice would be useful are the notes beginning an octave above the highest damper. I wish TuneLab would freeze the display before the sympathetic vibration of the lower notes kicks in (like when tuning F7 to C8). I usually lay a mute on those lower strings (thanks to Don Mannino's class).

--Cy--

------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Fairfax, VA
http://www.shusterpiano.com
------------------------------

I had about an hour long conversation with steve yesterday and tried to help him (as a scientist) to understand that many of us tuners (who are definitely NOT scientists) have come to believe that tuning actual "perfecto" unison is not necessarily the best thing from a musical standpoint. True, we certainly don't want beats in our unisons, however slight deviations from absolute phase unity can lend a rather more pleasant sound (which the coupling action of the bridge structure then unifies in the aftersound), and can actually improve sustain and melodic color, etc.

After some discussion he seemed to understand this (though not actually agreeing, he fully understood what I was saying).  I indicated that I felt this software tweak could have some value in doing this little unison tweak. I also indicated that there are some pianos that won't tolerate any deviation from "perfect" wherein Frank's feature could have value as well. 

He was surprised to learn that we analog tuners actually have analog ways of reproducing this digital feature to a very close degree (maybe not one tenth of a cent but certainly in the ballpark), and have had this ability for a long time but we don't write scholarly peer-reviewed articles on it (like he's used to in his field). 

We had a good chat. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 02-18-2023 08:40
From: Cy Shuster
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I'm reminded of the quote "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."

The app does a great job of snipping out a tiny piece of information. It would be useful to know if tuning using that snippet results in a better sound. But there's so much more going on when a note plays that is not shown.

The TuneLab spectrum display (or any RTA spectrum display) shows pitch and volume over time, which greatly helps me make my own best judgement, especially in tasks like measuring a pitch for a tuning exam. The SAT LED display similarly presents a small subset of the available information.

When aircraft altimeters were first digitized, the numbers would snap to their new values, like a thermometer or any other simple meter. Pilots soon discovered that the old rolling wheels of digits gave additional critical information, specifically a fine display of the rate of change of altitude. Digital altimeters were changed to mimic the old rolling wheels.

Secondly, I disagree with the value of tuning to a tenth of a cent. That's about as useful as tuning to a hundredth of a cent, or mowing a lawn to a tenth of a millimeter. It would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge: when you get to one end, go back and start over, because it's all changed.

The one part of the piano where focusing on a time slice would be useful are the notes beginning an octave above the highest damper. I wish TuneLab would freeze the display before the sympathetic vibration of the lower notes kicks in (like when tuning F7 to C8). I usually lay a mute on those lower strings (thanks to Don Mannino's class).

--Cy--

------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Fairfax, VA
http://www.shusterpiano.com


Original Message:
Sent: 02-17-2023 19:41
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

Hi Ed:

I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com


Original Message:
Sent: 02-17-2023 12:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I've watched the development of PianoScope over the last two years. Frank has consistently asked for technician response and responded quickly to many suggestions. The app is extremely adaptable to user preferences.

This particular video was made with a Fazioli piano. I don't know to what extent the variables so nicely measured would be audible. I certainly don't hear the pitch drop of a few hundredths of a cent.

But what if the same tests were performed on the lowest plainwire string of a Yamaha GH-1?

Could this program in effect offer a way to quantify the poor behavior of a foreshortened scale or the irregular impedance of a poorly made soundboard?

Could it measure and demonstrate the improvements made by adding riblets or bridge weights?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

I had about an hour long conversation with steve yesterday and tried to help him (as a scientist) to understand that many of us tuners (who are definitely NOT scientists) have come to believe that tuning actual "perfecto" unison is not necessarily the best thing from a musical standpoint. True, we certainly don't want beats in our unisons, however slight deviations from absolute phase unity can lend a rather more pleasant sound (which the coupling action of the bridge structure then unifies in the aftersound), and can actually improve sustain and melodic color, etc.

After some discussion he seemed to understand this (though not actually agreeing, he fully understood what I was saying).  I indicated that I felt this software tweak could have some value in doing this little unison tweak. I also indicated that there are some pianos that won't tolerate any deviation from "perfect" wherein Frank's feature could have value as well. 

He was surprised to learn that we analog tuners actually have analog ways of reproducing this digital feature to a very close degree (maybe not one tenth of a cent but certainly in the ballpark), and have had this ability for a long time but we don't write scholarly peer-reviewed articles on it (like he's used to in his field). 

We had a good chat. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 02-18-2023 08:40
From: Cy Shuster
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I'm reminded of the quote "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."

The app does a great job of snipping out a tiny piece of information. It would be useful to know if tuning using that snippet results in a better sound. But there's so much more going on when a note plays that is not shown.

The TuneLab spectrum display (or any RTA spectrum display) shows pitch and volume over time, which greatly helps me make my own best judgement, especially in tasks like measuring a pitch for a tuning exam. The SAT LED display similarly presents a small subset of the available information.

When aircraft altimeters were first digitized, the numbers would snap to their new values, like a thermometer or any other simple meter. Pilots soon discovered that the old rolling wheels of digits gave additional critical information, specifically a fine display of the rate of change of altitude. Digital altimeters were changed to mimic the old rolling wheels.

Secondly, I disagree with the value of tuning to a tenth of a cent. That's about as useful as tuning to a hundredth of a cent, or mowing a lawn to a tenth of a millimeter. It would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge: when you get to one end, go back and start over, because it's all changed.

The one part of the piano where focusing on a time slice would be useful are the notes beginning an octave above the highest damper. I wish TuneLab would freeze the display before the sympathetic vibration of the lower notes kicks in (like when tuning F7 to C8). I usually lay a mute on those lower strings (thanks to Don Mannino's class).

--Cy--

------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Fairfax, VA
http://www.shusterpiano.com


Original Message:
Sent: 02-17-2023 19:41
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

Hi Ed:

I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com


Original Message:
Sent: 02-17-2023 12:47
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I've watched the development of PianoScope over the last two years. Frank has consistently asked for technician response and responded quickly to many suggestions. The app is extremely adaptable to user preferences.

This particular video was made with a Fazioli piano. I don't know to what extent the variables so nicely measured would be audible. I certainly don't hear the pitch drop of a few hundredths of a cent.

But what if the same tests were performed on the lowest plainwire string of a Yamaha GH-1?

Could this program in effect offer a way to quantify the poor behavior of a foreshortened scale or the irregular impedance of a poorly made soundboard?

Could it measure and demonstrate the improvements made by adding riblets or bridge weights?

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Jim,<o:p></o:p>

I would take Richard's comment to you about unisons sounding better a day after being tuned (and possibly one or two other things he has ever uttered ;-) with a grain of salt.  Here's why…<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>

What happens as a tuning ages over time is random and arbitrary compared to the intentional and systematic approach that was described so well by Doctor of Pianos Peter Grey. To a certain extent, one can voice a note by how they tune the unison. Tuning for projection, sustain and overall better tonal perception is what Davenport himself and many others practice.<o:p> </o:p>

Best,<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>

Alan<o:p></o:p>

I had about an hour long conversation with steve yesterday and tried to help him (as a scientist) to understand that many of us tuners (who are definitely NOT scientists) have come to believe that tuning actual "perfecto" unison is not necessarily the best thing from a musical standpoint. True, we certainly don't want beats in our unisons, however slight deviations from absolute phase unity can lend a rather more pleasant sound (which the coupling action of the bridge structure then unifies in the aftersound), and can actually improve sustain and melodic color, etc.

After some discussion he seemed to understand this (though not actually agreeing, he fully understood what I was saying).  I indicated that I felt this software tweak could have some value in doing this little unison tweak. I also indicated that there are some pianos that won't tolerate any deviation from "perfect" wherein Frank's feature could have value as well. 

He was surprised to learn that we analog tuners actually have analog ways of reproducing this digital feature to a very close degree (maybe not one tenth of a cent but certainly in the ballpark), and have had this ability for a long time but we don't write scholarly peer-reviewed articles on it (like he's used to in his field). 

We had a good chat. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 02-18-2023 08:40
From: Cy Shuster
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I'm reminded of the quote "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."

The app does a great job of snipping out a tiny piece of information. It would be useful to know if tuning using that snippet results in a better sound. But there's so much more going on when a note plays that is not shown.

The TuneLab spectrum display (or any RTA spectrum display) shows pitch and volume over time, which greatly helps me make my own best judgement, especially in tasks like measuring a pitch for a tuning exam. The SAT LED display similarly presents a small subset of the available information.

When aircraft altimeters were first digitized, the numbers would snap to their new values, like a thermometer or any other simple meter. Pilots soon discovered that the old rolling wheels of digits gave additional critical information, specifically a fine display of the rate of change of altitude. Digital altimeters were changed to mimic the old rolling wheels.

Secondly, I disagree with the value of tuning to a tenth of a cent. That's about as useful as tuning to a hundredth of a cent, or mowing a lawn to a tenth of a millimeter. It would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge: when you get to one end, go back and start over, because it's all changed.

The one part of the piano where focusing on a time slice would be useful are the notes beginning an octave above the highest damper. I wish TuneLab would freeze the display before the sympathetic vibration of the lower notes kicks in (like when tuning F7 to C8). I usually lay a mute on those lower strings (thanks to Don Mannino's class).

--Cy--

------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Fairfax, VA
http://www.shusterpiano.com


Original Message:
Sent: 02-17-2023 19:41
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

Hi Ed:

I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Jim,<o:p></o:p>

I would take Richard's comment to you about unisons sounding better a day after being tuned (and possibly one or two other things he has ever uttered ;-) with a grain of salt.  Here's why…<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>

What happens as a tuning ages over time is random and arbitrary compared to the intentional and systematic approach that was described so well by Doctor of Pianos Peter Grey. To a certain extent, one can voice a note by how they tune the unison. Tuning for projection, sustain and overall better tonal perception is what Davenport himself and many others practice.<o:p> </o:p>

Best,<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>

Alan<o:p></o:p>

I had about an hour long conversation with steve yesterday and tried to help him (as a scientist) to understand that many of us tuners (who are definitely NOT scientists) have come to believe that tuning actual "perfecto" unison is not necessarily the best thing from a musical standpoint. True, we certainly don't want beats in our unisons, however slight deviations from absolute phase unity can lend a rather more pleasant sound (which the coupling action of the bridge structure then unifies in the aftersound), and can actually improve sustain and melodic color, etc.

After some discussion he seemed to understand this (though not actually agreeing, he fully understood what I was saying).  I indicated that I felt this software tweak could have some value in doing this little unison tweak. I also indicated that there are some pianos that won't tolerate any deviation from "perfect" wherein Frank's feature could have value as well. 

He was surprised to learn that we analog tuners actually have analog ways of reproducing this digital feature to a very close degree (maybe not one tenth of a cent but certainly in the ballpark), and have had this ability for a long time but we don't write scholarly peer-reviewed articles on it (like he's used to in his field). 

We had a good chat. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 02-18-2023 08:40
From: Cy Shuster
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I'm reminded of the quote "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."

The app does a great job of snipping out a tiny piece of information. It would be useful to know if tuning using that snippet results in a better sound. But there's so much more going on when a note plays that is not shown.

The TuneLab spectrum display (or any RTA spectrum display) shows pitch and volume over time, which greatly helps me make my own best judgement, especially in tasks like measuring a pitch for a tuning exam. The SAT LED display similarly presents a small subset of the available information.

When aircraft altimeters were first digitized, the numbers would snap to their new values, like a thermometer or any other simple meter. Pilots soon discovered that the old rolling wheels of digits gave additional critical information, specifically a fine display of the rate of change of altitude. Digital altimeters were changed to mimic the old rolling wheels.

Secondly, I disagree with the value of tuning to a tenth of a cent. That's about as useful as tuning to a hundredth of a cent, or mowing a lawn to a tenth of a millimeter. It would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge: when you get to one end, go back and start over, because it's all changed.

The one part of the piano where focusing on a time slice would be useful are the notes beginning an octave above the highest damper. I wish TuneLab would freeze the display before the sympathetic vibration of the lower notes kicks in (like when tuning F7 to C8). I usually lay a mute on those lower strings (thanks to Don Mannino's class).

--Cy--

------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Fairfax, VA
http://www.shusterpiano.com


Original Message:
Sent: 02-17-2023 19:41
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

Hi Ed:

I don't know if you have the app, or have tried it.  The inharmonicity curves show very clearly where there are scaling irregularities.  If you make experiments, you can take the measurement again and see any differences on the curves.  You can examine various octaves, and all intervals calculated from the inharmonicity measurements.  What you're able to do with that information I guess is up to you.  Because of the fact that every note is measured for inharmonicity, you can go in and see what is happening for each individual note.  On the lower notes in the tenor, the tension is much less, so you get a kind of 'boingy' effect.  Think like the low tenor of a Baldwin Studio Upright.  Unless you do some major changes there, I doubt much can be done.  Right now, with this capability, and the red line indicator, you can see how much a hard blow vs a soft blow affects the change in frequency during the attack, and at what time frame. That might help to understand what these GB-1 strings are doing. 

Refinements are being made and will be forthcoming soon to deal with some anomalies of this feature.  Curiously, it's a side-gig for Frank, so he has to find the time to work on it while he's doing his day job.  But yes, he's quite open to any suggestions and tries to implement any ideas very quickly.  Steve and I had a Zoom meeting this morning to discuss the new feature and answer questions. 

It appears that there is much inconsistency from note to note in how they respond to hard and soft blows.  I'm sure it also has to do with setting the pins while tuning and other factors in the tuning process.  I try to use the same technique on each pin so that each string has the same tension in the non speaking segments.  You can easily see where the tendency of the pitch changes are sharp or flat in spite of the indicator being very close.  The background "strobe" works very nicely for this.  Any left or right movement gives you hints of too much or too little tension that might affect the pitch of the note.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Jim,<o:p></o:p>

I would take Richard's comment to you about unisons sounding better a day after being tuned (and possibly one or two other things he has ever uttered ;-) with a grain of salt.  Here's why…<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>

What happens as a tuning ages over time is random and arbitrary compared to the intentional and systematic approach that was described so well by Doctor of Pianos Peter Grey. To a certain extent, one can voice a note by how they tune the unison. Tuning for projection, sustain and overall better tonal perception is what Davenport himself and many others practice.<o:p> </o:p>

Best,<o:p></o:p><o:p> </o:p>

Alan<o:p></o:p>

I had about an hour long conversation with steve yesterday and tried to help him (as a scientist) to understand that many of us tuners (who are definitely NOT scientists) have come to believe that tuning actual "perfecto" unison is not necessarily the best thing from a musical standpoint. True, we certainly don't want beats in our unisons, however slight deviations from absolute phase unity can lend a rather more pleasant sound (which the coupling action of the bridge structure then unifies in the aftersound), and can actually improve sustain and melodic color, etc.

After some discussion he seemed to understand this (though not actually agreeing, he fully understood what I was saying).  I indicated that I felt this software tweak could have some value in doing this little unison tweak. I also indicated that there are some pianos that won't tolerate any deviation from "perfect" wherein Frank's feature could have value as well. 

He was surprised to learn that we analog tuners actually have analog ways of reproducing this digital feature to a very close degree (maybe not one tenth of a cent but certainly in the ballpark), and have had this ability for a long time but we don't write scholarly peer-reviewed articles on it (like he's used to in his field). 

We had a good chat. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 02-18-2023 08:40
From: Cy Shuster
Subject: New Pianoscope Feature Freezes Pitch During Attack Phase

I'm reminded of the quote "Everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler."

The app does a great job of snipping out a tiny piece of information. It would be useful to know if tuning using that snippet results in a better sound. But there's so much more going on when a note plays that is not shown.

The TuneLab spectrum display (or any RTA spectrum display) shows pitch and volume over time, which greatly helps me make my own best judgement, especially in tasks like measuring a pitch for a tuning exam. The SAT LED display similarly presents a small subset of the available information.

When aircraft altimeters were first digitized, the numbers would snap to their new values, like a thermometer or any other simple meter. Pilots soon discovered that the old rolling wheels of digits gave additional critical information, specifically a fine display of the rate of change of altitude. Digital altimeters were changed to mimic the old rolling wheels.

Secondly, I disagree with the value of tuning to a tenth of a cent. That's about as useful as tuning to a hundredth of a cent, or mowing a lawn to a tenth of a millimeter. It would be like painting the Golden Gate Bridge: when you get to one end, go back and start over, because it's all changed.

The one part of the piano where focusing on a time slice would be useful are the notes beginning an octave above the highest damper. I wish TuneLab would freeze the display before the sympathetic vibration of the lower notes kicks in (like when tuning F7 to C8). I usually lay a mute on those lower strings (thanks to Don Mannino's class).

--Cy--

------------------------------
Cy Shuster, RPT
Fairfax, VA
http://www.shusterpiano.com