Pianotech

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note? 

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations. 

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

If the becket is halfway through the tuning pin hole, you'll get this kind of instability. I'd replace that wire or use the existing wire to make a new becket.

------------------------------
John Formsma
New Albany MS

"Sneak up on optimal."
--Ron Nossaman
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2022 5:18:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note? 

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations. 

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2022 5:38:00 PM
From: Edward Foote
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

I had this problem on a Steinway S.  It turned out to be a hitch pin slowly leaning forward, which affected two strings of a tri-chord.  I eventually found that there was a sand pocket in the plate and had to relocate the pin almost 1/2 inch back from where it was supposed to be.  

   You may also find that there is a becket slowly pulling out of the pin.... 

Regards, 

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2022 5:18:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note? 

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations. 

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Hello Geoff,
Sounds indeed like a hitch pin problem as Edward mentioned. 
I had a customer with the same problem that his Hobart M Cable grand had. It was a little over 10 years old but the Steinway Piano Gallery where he bought this piano,  replaced the entire piano.
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
(678) 416-8055
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I ran into this on another Steinway grand and it turned out to be a string that was slowly slipping its windings at the hitch pin end.  Drove me nuts for weeks until I realized the length of the wrap wasn't the same as its neighbors.

------------------------------
Mike Kurta, RPT
N. Michigan chapter
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 23:17
From: Petrus Janssen
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Hello Geoff,
Sounds indeed like a hitch pin problem as Edward mentioned.
I had a customer with the same problem that his Hobart M Cable grand had. It was a little over 10 years old but the Steinway Piano Gallery where he bought this piano,  replaced the entire piano.
Peter

------------------------------
Petrus Janssen
Peachtree City GA
(678) 416-8055

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Hi, Geoff

Back in the early to mid '90s I worked for a Yamaha dealer and ran into this a couple of times. It was the hitch pin bending forward, as Ed replied and Petrus supported. I can't say that this is definitely the issue, but strongly urge you to look at it.

Chuck Cook

------------------------------
[Chuck] [Cook] [RPT]
[Cook's Piano Service
[Griffin] [GA]
[770-229-4298]
[800-390-4298]
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 14:49
From: Charles Cook
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Hi, Geoff

Back in the early to mid '90s I worked for a Yamaha dealer and ran into this a couple of times. It was the hitch pin bending forward, as Ed replied and Petrus supported. I can't say that this is definitely the issue, but strongly urge you to look at it.

Chuck Cook

------------------------------
[Chuck] [Cook] [RPT]
[Cook's Piano Service
[Griffin] [GA]
[770-229-4298]
[800-390-4298]

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 8/13/2022 3:26:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 14:49
From: Charles Cook
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Hi, Geoff

Back in the early to mid '90s I worked for a Yamaha dealer and ran into this a couple of times. It was the hitch pin bending forward, as Ed replied and Petrus supported. I can't say that this is definitely the issue, but strongly urge you to look at it.

Chuck Cook

------------------------------
[Chuck] [Cook] [RPT]
[Cook's Piano Service
[Griffin] [GA]
[770-229-4298]
[800-390-4298]

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Once you remove the string, you'll be able to grip the hitch pin to see if it is solid or not.  Is the string tapped to the plate at the hitch pin?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 17:00
From: Edward Foote
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

>>OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?<<

Well..... The first thing I did was notify the dealer that he would need to fix it, and his technician refused, preferring to watch me do it. I had to get the indemnification out of the way before I started drilling holes in a new $50,000 instrument.  

   Not knowing where the edges of the defect might be, and somewhat constrained by limited area to place a new pin, I marked off 1/2" behind the original position with a hard steel punch. I did this through a piece of masking tape in an attempt to avoid chipping the finish.    I then drilled a 1/16" pilot hole on about a 15-20º angle.  All seemed solid so I then followed it up with a bit that was .002" under the size of the new hitch pin and tapped it in.  

  Caveat:  Iron is easy to drill,  and easy to "wallow" out a hole when aiming for these kinds of tolerances, so a visual cue as to angle is not a bad idea.  a piece of wire in a block, a protractor taped to the plate, etc.  Use a drop of oil, a steady hand, and don't go too fast, maybe 500 rpm. Keep the feed slow enough so you don't catch the bit and break it off in there!    I also put a piece of sticky paper (spider trap) on the soundboard under the area I was working to catch any debris or oil that might fall through. 

   I won't say it wasn't a little nerve-wracking, with visions of earthquake-like fissures opening up and running away from the hole, causing the string tension to explode the plate into shrapnel which mangled all of us gathered around.....

   Maybe it is a short becket slipping out of the tuning pin.  I replaced the string on this one before risking armageddon, but in my case, it wasn't that.  

Regards,  

Original Message:
Sent: 8/13/2022 3:26:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 14:49
From: Charles Cook
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Hi, Geoff

Back in the early to mid '90s I worked for a Yamaha dealer and ran into this a couple of times. It was the hitch pin bending forward, as Ed replied and Petrus supported. I can't say that this is definitely the issue, but strongly urge you to look at it.

Chuck Cook

------------------------------
[Chuck] [Cook] [RPT]
[Cook's Piano Service
[Griffin] [GA]
[770-229-4298]
[800-390-4298]

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 8/13/2022 10:49:00 PM
From: Jon Page
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Once you remove the string, you'll be able to grip the hitch pin to see if it is solid or not.  Is the string tapped to the plate at the hitch pin?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 17:00
From: Edward Foote
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

>>OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?<<

Well..... The first thing I did was notify the dealer that he would need to fix it, and his technician refused, preferring to watch me do it. I had to get the indemnification out of the way before I started drilling holes in a new $50,000 instrument.  

   Not knowing where the edges of the defect might be, and somewhat constrained by limited area to place a new pin, I marked off 1/2" behind the original position with a hard steel punch. I did this through a piece of masking tape in an attempt to avoid chipping the finish.    I then drilled a 1/16" pilot hole on about a 15-20º angle.  All seemed solid so I then followed it up with a bit that was .002" under the size of the new hitch pin and tapped it in.  

  Caveat:  Iron is easy to drill,  and easy to "wallow" out a hole when aiming for these kinds of tolerances, so a visual cue as to angle is not a bad idea.  a piece of wire in a block, a protractor taped to the plate, etc.  Use a drop of oil, a steady hand, and don't go too fast, maybe 500 rpm. Keep the feed slow enough so you don't catch the bit and break it off in there!    I also put a piece of sticky paper (spider trap) on the soundboard under the area I was working to catch any debris or oil that might fall through. 

   I won't say it wasn't a little nerve-wracking, with visions of earthquake-like fissures opening up and running away from the hole, causing the string tension to explode the plate into shrapnel which mangled all of us gathered around.....

   Maybe it is a short becket slipping out of the tuning pin.  I replaced the string on this one before risking armageddon, but in my case, it wasn't that.  

Regards,  

Original Message:
Sent: 8/13/2022 3:26:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 14:49
From: Charles Cook
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Hi, Geoff

Back in the early to mid '90s I worked for a Yamaha dealer and ran into this a couple of times. It was the hitch pin bending forward, as Ed replied and Petrus supported. I can't say that this is definitely the issue, but strongly urge you to look at it.

Chuck Cook

------------------------------
[Chuck] [Cook] [RPT]
[Cook's Piano Service
[Griffin] [GA]
[770-229-4298]
[800-390-4298]

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

How often is there a sand pocket in a plate ? would this be considered a defect and a warranty issue ?  I am not sure I would want to attempt the repair Ed did

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2022 09:57
From: Gary Messling
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

I've had a similar problem at the becket on a Bergman AF-108 (Young-Chang) in 2010. I had been tuning it since it was delivered new in 2003. As I recall, I only really noticed it was slipping on the day the becket broke. I simply cut the remaining becket end to clean up the string end and bent a new becket. I still tune it pretty regularly; it's been fine ever since.

Since this in not exactly what's happening with the problem in question, maybe it is the hitch pin. If so, if this is not single tied string, do both string segments drop in pitch?

To check the hitch pin, can't you just let up on the tension of both segments and give the pin a wiggle? That way you don't need to replace the string if the pin is not the problem. If it's not broke...

Best

Original Message:
Sent: 8/13/2022 10:49:00 PM
From: Jon Page
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Once you remove the string, you'll be able to grip the hitch pin to see if it is solid or not.  Is the string tapped to the plate at the hitch pin?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 17:00
From: Edward Foote
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

>>OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?<<

Well..... The first thing I did was notify the dealer that he would need to fix it, and his technician refused, preferring to watch me do it. I had to get the indemnification out of the way before I started drilling holes in a new $50,000 instrument.  

   Not knowing where the edges of the defect might be, and somewhat constrained by limited area to place a new pin, I marked off 1/2" behind the original position with a hard steel punch. I did this through a piece of masking tape in an attempt to avoid chipping the finish.    I then drilled a 1/16" pilot hole on about a 15-20º angle.  All seemed solid so I then followed it up with a bit that was .002" under the size of the new hitch pin and tapped it in.  

  Caveat:  Iron is easy to drill,  and easy to "wallow" out a hole when aiming for these kinds of tolerances, so a visual cue as to angle is not a bad idea.  a piece of wire in a block, a protractor taped to the plate, etc.  Use a drop of oil, a steady hand, and don't go too fast, maybe 500 rpm. Keep the feed slow enough so you don't catch the bit and break it off in there!    I also put a piece of sticky paper (spider trap) on the soundboard under the area I was working to catch any debris or oil that might fall through. 

   I won't say it wasn't a little nerve-wracking, with visions of earthquake-like fissures opening up and running away from the hole, causing the string tension to explode the plate into shrapnel which mangled all of us gathered around.....

   Maybe it is a short becket slipping out of the tuning pin.  I replaced the string on this one before risking armageddon, but in my case, it wasn't that.  

Regards,  

Original Message:
Sent: 8/13/2022 3:26:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 14:49
From: Charles Cook
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Hi, Geoff

Back in the early to mid '90s I worked for a Yamaha dealer and ran into this a couple of times. It was the hitch pin bending forward, as Ed replied and Petrus supported. I can't say that this is definitely the issue, but strongly urge you to look at it.

Chuck Cook

------------------------------
[Chuck] [Cook] [RPT]
[Cook's Piano Service
[Griffin] [GA]
[770-229-4298]
[800-390-4298]

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 8/17/2022 10:27:00 AM
From: James Kelly
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

How often is there a sand pocket in a plate ? would this be considered a defect and a warranty issue ?  I am not sure I would want to attempt the repair Ed did

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2022 09:57
From: Gary Messling
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

I've had a similar problem at the becket on a Bergman AF-108 (Young-Chang) in 2010. I had been tuning it since it was delivered new in 2003. As I recall, I only really noticed it was slipping on the day the becket broke. I simply cut the remaining becket end to clean up the string end and bent a new becket. I still tune it pretty regularly; it's been fine ever since.

Since this in not exactly what's happening with the problem in question, maybe it is the hitch pin. If so, if this is not single tied string, do both string segments drop in pitch?

To check the hitch pin, can't you just let up on the tension of both segments and give the pin a wiggle? That way you don't need to replace the string if the pin is not the problem. If it's not broke...

Best

Original Message:
Sent: 8/13/2022 10:49:00 PM
From: Jon Page
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Once you remove the string, you'll be able to grip the hitch pin to see if it is solid or not.  Is the string tapped to the plate at the hitch pin?

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 17:00
From: Edward Foote
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

>>OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?<<

Well..... The first thing I did was notify the dealer that he would need to fix it, and his technician refused, preferring to watch me do it. I had to get the indemnification out of the way before I started drilling holes in a new $50,000 instrument.  

   Not knowing where the edges of the defect might be, and somewhat constrained by limited area to place a new pin, I marked off 1/2" behind the original position with a hard steel punch. I did this through a piece of masking tape in an attempt to avoid chipping the finish.    I then drilled a 1/16" pilot hole on about a 15-20º angle.  All seemed solid so I then followed it up with a bit that was .002" under the size of the new hitch pin and tapped it in.  

  Caveat:  Iron is easy to drill,  and easy to "wallow" out a hole when aiming for these kinds of tolerances, so a visual cue as to angle is not a bad idea.  a piece of wire in a block, a protractor taped to the plate, etc.  Use a drop of oil, a steady hand, and don't go too fast, maybe 500 rpm. Keep the feed slow enough so you don't catch the bit and break it off in there!    I also put a piece of sticky paper (spider trap) on the soundboard under the area I was working to catch any debris or oil that might fall through. 

   I won't say it wasn't a little nerve-wracking, with visions of earthquake-like fissures opening up and running away from the hole, causing the string tension to explode the plate into shrapnel which mangled all of us gathered around.....

   Maybe it is a short becket slipping out of the tuning pin.  I replaced the string on this one before risking armageddon, but in my case, it wasn't that.  

Regards,  

Original Message:
Sent: 8/13/2022 3:26:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

OK, we have two votes for defective hitch pin. I still think that replacing the string first would be a good experiment, but how would I go about repairing a defective hitch pin if that doesn't work?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-13-2022 14:49
From: Charles Cook
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Hi, Geoff

Back in the early to mid '90s I worked for a Yamaha dealer and ran into this a couple of times. It was the hitch pin bending forward, as Ed replied and Petrus supported. I can't say that this is definitely the issue, but strongly urge you to look at it.

Chuck Cook

------------------------------
[Chuck] [Cook] [RPT]
[Cook's Piano Service
[Griffin] [GA]
[770-229-4298]
[800-390-4298]

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Last week I went back to follow-up on some of the recommendations suggested here and I thought I would report back. I wound up lowering the tension on the L & C strings, (both the same wire), and checking the hitch pin. It was solid. The beckets were good and went all the way through the hole in the pin. I had previously CA glued the bridge pins so nothing to do there. Put the strings back on the pins and made sure the coils and the wind were both tight. Brought them back up to pitch and tapped down the wire at the hitch pin so it was seated solid as well as tapped the wrap at the point it left the pin to better define the wrap . I also made sure the wires, as they went around the bridge pins, were not only seated but also helped them a bit by sideways tapping the wires to tighten the curve around the pin. Leveled the strings on each side of the capo bar and gave a couple of taps to the strings as they left the tuning pin to, again, tighten the curves as the string left the pin. I then put just a couple of drops of CA on both tuning pins just for good measure. Brought the unisons back in and was done. About four days later I got a message from the customer letting me know how happy he was that the string was no longer going out. Thanks to everyone here for your recommendations.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Gripping the coil with parallel pliers, squeezing at the becket and giving a quarter turn counter-clockwise, four times (3 is not enough, 5 has no further affect) will help to coax the wire around the pin. The bottom coil tightens first, leaving the upper coils to slowly become tighter. When I've done this procedure, the pitch dropped anywhere from 60 cents to a minor third.  The pianos were definitely more stable afterwards.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-11-2022 01:15
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Last week I went back to follow-up on some of the recommendations suggested here and I thought I would report back. I wound up lowering the tension on the L & C strings, (both the same wire), and checking the hitch pin. It was solid. The beckets were good and went all the way through the hole in the pin. I had previously CA glued the bridge pins so nothing to do there. Put the strings back on the pins and made sure the coils and the wind were both tight. Brought them back up to pitch and tapped down the wire at the hitch pin so it was seated solid as well as tapped the wrap at the point it left the pin to better define the wrap . I also made sure the wires, as they went around the bridge pins, were not only seated but also helped them a bit by sideways tapping the wires to tighten the curve around the pin. Leveled the strings on each side of the capo bar and gave a couple of taps to the strings as they left the tuning pin to, again, tighten the curves as the string left the pin. I then put just a couple of drops of CA on both tuning pins just for good measure. Brought the unisons back in and was done. About four days later I got a message from the customer letting me know how happy he was that the string was no longer going out. Thanks to everyone here for your recommendations.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Jon --

That is exactly what I was trying to describe. Thanks.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 09-11-2022 09:57
From: Jon Page
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Gripping the coil with parallel pliers, squeezing at the becket and giving a quarter turn counter-clockwise will help to coax the wire around the pin. The bottom coil tightens first, leaving the upper coils to slowly become tighter. When I've done this procedure, the pitch dropped anywhere from 60 cents to a minor third.  The pianos were definitely more stable afterwards.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 09-11-2022 01:15
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

Last week I went back to follow-up on some of the recommendations suggested here and I thought I would report back. I wound up lowering the tension on the L & C strings, (both the same wire), and checking the hitch pin. It was solid. The beckets were good and went all the way through the hole in the pin. I had previously CA glued the bridge pins so nothing to do there. Put the strings back on the pins and made sure the coils and the wind were both tight. Brought them back up to pitch and tapped down the wire at the hitch pin so it was seated solid as well as tapped the wrap at the point it left the pin to better define the wrap . I also made sure the wires, as they went around the bridge pins, were not only seated but also helped them a bit by sideways tapping the wires to tighten the curve around the pin. Leveled the strings on each side of the capo bar and gave a couple of taps to the strings as they left the tuning pin to, again, tighten the curves as the string left the pin. I then put just a couple of drops of CA on both tuning pins just for good measure. Brought the unisons back in and was done. About four days later I got a message from the customer letting me know how happy he was that the string was no longer going out. Thanks to everyone here for your recommendations.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2022 17:18
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: One note continues to slip out of tune, quickly.

1985 Yamaha S400. Beautiful instrument. Stability for both this piano and customers previous piano was a bit problematic so I installed a Dampp Chaser dehumidifier system on this one. Helped a lot. I see it twice a year and it now rarely needs more than just a touch up tuning. Except for this one note. E5. The treble break is between C5 and C#5, this is the next note about C#5. Pinblock is good. Bridge is good, no cracks or obviously loose pins. Soundboard is good, no cracks. It's always just this one note that the unison goes out on within a day or so of tuning. And he's a busy jazz guy so he doesn't play unreasonably hard.

When I was there yesterday I thought it wouldn't hurt to CA glue the bridge pins for that note, more as a test than anything else. Less than 24 hours later customer lets me know it slipped. Fortunately he's sort of used to this and understands it's not my fault. I showed him how to touch up unisons several years ago so he keeps it within tolerable range between tunings. But this one note?

My next thought is perhaps it's one of the strings on that note that is having problems and I just need to replace that string. But before I do that I thought I would throw it out to everyone here for thoughts and recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------