Pianotech

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Hi Norman,

First of all can we as piano technicians give the Piano Life Saver company the repect they deserve by reffering to them by there present name, not Dampp-Chaser. They officially changed their name years ago.

Norman, If you play the piano, my suggestion would be to install a Piano Life Saver (PLS) system in your own piano and prove to yourself whether you think they have value.

It could be one of the best purchases you have made for you as a piano owner and as a business owner. As a business owner it could be a nice stream of income if you decide that the PLS systems do have value.

To take it one step further, if you own a grand and install a PLS system, after detrmining how you perceive that working, then put a string cover on it and see how your instrument reacts to that. My experience has been it helps to stabilize the instrument even more. Same applies to an upright, except it would be a Mylar back cover, not a string cover.

My philosophy is: if I'm going to sell something to a customer then I need to sell it to myself first. In considering what we are talking about here, this one experiment has added an income stream to my business and helped preserve the three instruments my wife and I own. She is a piano instructor with two grands in her studio and a upright in the house.  

Doug Mahard - CT chapter

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Doug ... I totally agree with your post. Our humidity on the coast is year round and state wide as well. I have a full system on my Yamaha G2 along with a string cover made with 100% wool and the piano looks like it just came from the factory. There are many situations here where both a whole house humidifier and dehumidifier are advisable but in older homes it is impossible. Room humidifiers and dehumidifiers are also effective solutions but often clients do not want to have to empty a water tank, do not like the noise some units make or do not want a unit to detract from the setting.

Properly sized and installed Piano Life Savers system are highly effective. I have a number of churches with full and partial systems that have made their pianos extremely stable. Prior to the installs the pianos had no stability and some had persistent issues with slow/sticking keys and actions. 

I would never put a bowl of water on the bottom board of a vertical piano nor anything on the top of the plate of a grand. When I encounter old systems without humidistats I inform clients they are no longer recommended and for the most part are unsafe. Typically the electrical cords are dried out and fragile. Because they have no thermostat control they are on 24 x 7.   New full systems have reminder LEDs on them showing there is power to the unit , there is a blinking yellow light for low water and a red light for humidifier pad issues.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
(843) 325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 02-10-2023 08:24
From: Douglas Mahard
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi Norman,

First of all can we as piano technicians give the Piano Life Saver company the repect they deserve by reffering to them by there present name, not Dampp-Chaser. They officially changed their name years ago.

Norman, If you play the piano, my suggestion would be to install a Piano Life Saver (PLS) system in your own piano and prove to yourself whether you think they have value.

It could be one of the best purchases you have made for you as a piano owner and as a business owner. As a business owner it could be a nice stream of income if you decide that the PLS systems do have value.

To take it one step further, if you own a grand and install a PLS system, after detrmining how you perceive that working, then put a string cover on it and see how your instrument reacts to that. My experience has been it helps to stabilize the instrument even more. Same applies to an upright, except it would be a Mylar back cover, not a string cover.

My philosophy is: if I'm going to sell something to a customer then I need to sell it to myself first. In considering what we are talking about here, this one experiment has added an income stream to my business and helped preserve the three instruments my wife and I own. She is a piano instructor with two grands in her studio and a upright in the house.  

Doug Mahard - CT chapter

------------------------------
Douglas Mahard
Bethlehem CT
(203) 266-6688

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Ed,

Yes, this is an unfortunate requirement on these instruments. Whether the current slimmer tanks will fit in there or not I don't know. Sounds like a neg. The one I spoke if had the two tanks directly side by side right behind the keybed.  Slightly, but not horribly unsightly. Sure worked great though.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Ed,

Yes, this is an unfortunate requirement on these instruments. Whether the current slimmer tanks will fit in there or not I don't know. Sounds like a neg. The one I spoke if had the two tanks directly side by side right behind the keybed.  Slightly, but not horribly unsightly. Sure worked great though.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Ed,

Yes, this is an unfortunate requirement on these instruments. Whether the current slimmer tanks will fit in there or not I don't know. Sounds like a neg. The one I spoke if had the two tanks directly side by side right behind the keybed.  Slightly, but not horribly unsightly. Sure worked great though.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Ed, would they consider a PLS on a "wagon" under the piano? I have a European engineer client who built one for his new Yamaha C2. Different strokes …

Ed,

Yes, this is an unfortunate requirement on these instruments. Whether the current slimmer tanks will fit in there or not I don't know. Sounds like a neg. The one I spoke if had the two tanks directly side by side right behind the keybed.  Slightly, but not horribly unsightly. Sure worked great though.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Pat,

I have a client who desperately needs a PLS system but is paranoid about drilling any holes in the bottom of the piano. (Yes, I informed her that she already has many holes drilled in her piano...made no difference).

Wadaya have?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Ed, would they consider a PLS on a "wagon" under the piano? I have a European engineer client who built one for his new Yamaha C2. Different strokes …

Ed,

Yes, this is an unfortunate requirement on these instruments. Whether the current slimmer tanks will fit in there or not I don't know. Sounds like a neg. The one I spoke if had the two tanks directly side by side right behind the keybed.  Slightly, but not horribly unsightly. Sure worked great though.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Ed, would they consider a PLS on a "wagon" under the piano? I have a European engineer client who built one for his new Yamaha C2. Different strokes …

Ed,

Yes, this is an unfortunate requirement on these instruments. Whether the current slimmer tanks will fit in there or not I don't know. Sounds like a neg. The one I spoke if had the two tanks directly side by side right behind the keybed.  Slightly, but not horribly unsightly. Sure worked great though.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------

Scott,

1) Since the system is "always on" you may have simply touched it during its cycle off from the humidifier and it should shortly cycle back to the humidifier. However if you're saying that the rods were hot all the time you were there  that would likely indicate something else.

2) If the Stat is located too close to the humidifier (or such that it is receiving too much feedback from the humidifier) this will incline the system towards a lower RH cycle point. 

3) The possibility exists that someone switched the plugs on the Stat, putting the white one in the dehumidifier side and the dehumidifiers into the white humidifier socket. As dumb as this sounds, I have encountered it at least twice. (Occasionally movers mess it up too).

4) There is a remote possibility that the Stat has gone bonkers. Rare, but it happens. If this is suspected I would contact the manufacturer and discuss it. 

There may be something else I'm not thinking of right now as well. I would urge you (even if you disagree with the systems) to learn everything about them so as to be able to maintain existing ones, as well as diagnose and correct possible install errors that might occur. It's more professional (IMO) to do this than to say: "find someone who deals with these things..." (this may not not be how you handle the matter anyway). At any rate it probably should be checked out to be sure.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Had a customer today with a Dampp Chaser system on their Yamaha grand and the heater bars were hot. The humidity is 28% in the room. Why would the heater bars be on? It's a new system on a nice rebuilt 1993 Yamaha G3. I didn't install the system, I don't install them. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! 

------------------------------
"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 22:52
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Maggie,

Just a week or two ago I disconnected the humidifier portion of a system (and told the owners why...they understood) since virtually every time I have come to tune the thing the humidifier is dry. I explained that it's better to have a maintenance-free "half-a-system" than to have an erratically maintained full system ("Sumpins' better than 'nuttin").

Years ago I also raised this issue about a "zero point" on the humidistat and was told that they had in fact looked into that (quite possibly referring to Robert's offer), but decided not to go that route since the cost to change everything (for too little improvement in performance) was prohibitive. 

Covers certainly do make a difference (top and bottom in a grand). Enclosing the system as much as possible seems to be one of the most effective upgrades. 

I recall a Bosendorfer Imperial at the French Embassy in DC (when I was there) that was a real "bear" to keep in shape. At one point a double PLS system was installed on it and it's stability became solid as a rock. (This was one of the older units with about double the surface area of water as the current units). Really transformed that piano. I have no idea what the current status is since I've been gone from there for over 15 years. 

One area where the system does not work well is if there is actively moving air near it. It seems to scramble its brain so it doesn't quite know what to do. Therefore if strong circulating air currents exist (such as is often the case in institutional settings) performance is likely to be less than optimal.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 13:12
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Hi All,

There are some great responses here! I'd like to add a few things. 

Peter - Re your #2, I have had situations in which the humidity range exceeded both extremes of 35% and 65%.  With a particular piano the system couldn't keep up, and I may never know what it would have been like if it didn't have the system at all. The humid summer in a BOG was so damaging that the strings were rusty, the action was constantly fighting friction, mold was growing everywhere both inside and out, and the pins were becoming loose in the block from the extremes. I talked with the PLS peeps about it and they were horrified that someone would put a relatively expensive Yamaha grand in that environment. It is hard to explain to the educated how the uneducated can have a hard time understanding things, and it is hard to explain to the uneducated that the environment they have lived in their entire life, which they see as normal, isn't suitable for an instrument they want. 

Here is my take on Norman's points...

1) Most of my customers can't afford a whole house humidity system, but I have 2 who do and their pianos are so stable that I have educated them but left the final decision of installing a PLS up to them. They have opted to not and their pianos are in fantastic shape. *shrug* My experience with a room humidifier & dehumidifier has been poor. For whatever reason, they just don't do what a PLS does. My experience with water in or under a piano is that it is a waste of time and can attract mosquitoes or other unpleasant larvae. 

2) I'm one of those who might swear the PLS (double-tank with undercover) made a different in a grand pin block. It was a Steinway D. I can't find any other explanation for loose pins starting to hold within a year of a PLS install. *shrug* It is still a concern of mine. 

3) This is one of 3 reasons I have started recommending half systems in certain situations. I am weary of finding systems that haven't been watered in quite a while. I explain to people that if they can't commit to keeping the water tank full, that it is better to have a half system to avoid the random, sudden introduction of humidity which, IMO, can do more harm than good. If they can commit to a full system, I recommend it. The other 2 reasons are that sometimes, as in my own home, the humidity rarely goes below 40%, and that some people can't afford a full system and/or their piano isn't worth the cost. 

4) I have often wondered about the switch and thought it would be better if it had at least one degree of "space" where both system halves would be off. Bob just confirmed my suspicion that this would be too expensive to bother with. Thanks for sharing, Bob! 

5) Most of the time, plugs end up behind verticals. When this doesn't happen, the problem is easily solved with an outlet cover (which also helps to keep cleaners/janitors from unplugging systems) and a grand undercover. I NEVER install anything without an undercover these days. In fact, I strongly encourage people with older systems to get them. They make a significant difference in my experience. 

6) Really? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the PLS peeps took precautions to avoid an accident in which one could become electrocuted if it were plugged in backwards. If not, that would be most concerning. 

Interesting stuff. Thanks! 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 02-12-2023 10:44
From: Robert Scott
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

Norman, I understand your point about the limitations of a SPDT switch controlled humidity system.  Even when the ambient humidity around the piano is perfect, such a system will still spend half its time actively evaporating water and the other half heating to reduce the humidity, resulting in a lot more water used than would be needed.  Of course in very dry or very humid ambient conditions the control system spends most of its time doing the right thing - either heating or evaporating as needed.  That said, I think as primitive as it is, the system is still a closed-loop control system with feedback that is highly effective.  So it is hard to justify refining the system to include a third state - where both evaporation and heating are turned off.  The humidity sensor they use now - the one that mechanically flips the SPDT switch, is very inexpensive.  Any more complex intelligent sensor and switching system would add greatly to the cost.  I tried to sell them on a design that I made years ago based on a microchip, but they didn't go for it.  As a business decision, I can see why.  I do think that the PLS system, even with its present limitations, is still far superior to any open-loop solution, such as placing containers of water in or around the piano.  With such a solution the amount of water that gets put into the air does not depend on how far the current humidity is from the desired value.

------------------------------
Robert Scott
Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
Hopkins MN

Original Message:
Sent: 02-08-2023 20:26
From: Norman Brickman
Subject: Piano Humidity Control

We know that control of humidity is important for pianos, both from a tuning stability perspective as well as to preserve the integrity of the instrument. I recommend and install dehumidifier systems and I maintain existing humidifying systems, but I do not recommend and have never installed a humidifying system in a piano. Do others agree with my position? If not, would you please explain the errors of my ways! I would appreciate it.

My reasons for being negative on piano-based humidifying control systems are:

1) My preference, for both humidifying and dehumidifying, is whole house humidity control as part of the HVAC system. For newer houses in my area this is a given – they already have it. My second choice for humidifying control is a room humidifier, like those sold on Amazon for around $100. Third choice is the old-fashioned approach of margarine cups filled with water in them and positioned on the plate of a grand or inside an upright.

2) In grands, a piano-based humidity control system is mounted underneath the soundboard and does not protect the pin block.

3) The homeowner needs to be sure to follow directions with water additives on humidifying systems to control bacteria and control mildew with standing water – from a health perspective. Also, the need in a geographical area like mine to use distilled water instead of our hard tap water.

4) From my observations, the humidistat in dual humidifying/dehumidifying piano-based systems is a mechanical SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw) relay set for 42% Relative Humidity. Therefore one function is always active. After the humidifier portion of the system puts enough moisture in the air to reach 42% RH, it turns on the drying rods to actively reduce humidity and thereby undo a portion of what it just achieved.

5) From a safety perspective, particularly with grand pianos, I personally do not consider it desirable to have electrical wiring and electrical connections within reach of small children or pets. Simultaneously having accessible water also associated with an electrical systems, in my view, further exacerbates the safety risk.

6) The newer humidistats have a polarized plug, which I think is very desirable. For those tuners servicing older systems with a non-polarized plug, I suggest replacement of the humidistat. This is because, with a SPDT humidistat controller as I indicated, there is a 50-50 chance of the switching being done on the ground side of the circuit and therefore 110-volts always being distributed.

Comments welcome. Regards, Norman

------------------------------
Norman Brickman
Potomac Piano Service
Potomac, Maryland
potomacpiano@verizon.net
https://potomacpiano.com
(301) 983.9321
------------------------------