Pianotech

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

The system cycles. When the room is dry, the humidifier cuts in, and operates until the higher limit of the set range is reached. At that point, the humidifier cuts out and the dehumidifier bars cut in, and remain in operation until the lower end of the set range is reached. If the ambient air is quite dry, the dehumidifier bars will not be on for very long. Conversely, if the ambient air is quite moist, the dehumidifier bars may never quite manage to get the humidity low enough that the humidifier even kicks in.

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

Thanks Floyd!

The system cycles. When the room is dry, the humidifier cuts in, and operates until the higher limit of the set range is reached. At that point, the humidifier cuts out and the dehumidifier bars cut in, and remain in operation until the lower end of the set range is reached. If the ambient air is quite dry, the dehumidifier bars will not be on for very long. Conversely, if the ambient air is quite moist, the dehumidifier bars may never quite manage to get the humidity low enough that the humidifier even kicks in.

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

The system cycles. When the room is dry, the humidifier cuts in, and operates until the higher limit of the set range is reached. At that point, the humidifier cuts out and the dehumidifier bars cut in, and remain in operation until the lower end of the set range is reached. If the ambient air is quite dry, the dehumidifier bars will not be on for very long. Conversely, if the ambient air is quite moist, the dehumidifier bars may never quite manage to get the humidity low enough that the humidifier even kicks in.

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

The system cycles. When the room is dry, the humidifier cuts in, and operates until the higher limit of the set range is reached. At that point, the humidifier cuts out and the dehumidifier bars cut in, and remain in operation until the lower end of the set range is reached. If the ambient air is quite dry, the dehumidifier bars will not be on for very long. Conversely, if the ambient air is quite moist, the dehumidifier bars may never quite manage to get the humidity low enough that the humidifier even kicks in.

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

Data loggers that track temperature and humidity are useful.  I use the EL-USB-2+.  You can use it to graph your data and visualize what is happening in the piano.

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

So, here's the deal...

Data loggers that track temperature and humidity are useful.  I use the EL-USB-2+.  You can use it to graph your data and visualize what is happening in the piano.

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

So, here's the deal...

Data loggers that track temperature and humidity are useful.  I use the EL-USB-2+.  You can use it to graph your data and visualize what is happening in the piano.

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

Unless those two pianos were purchased at the same time and have lived side by side this is not a valid observation.

So, here's the deal...

Data loggers that track temperature and humidity are useful.  I use the EL-USB-2+.  You can use it to graph your data and visualize what is happening in the piano.

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

Yes Larry. Purchased at the same time and are in identical rooms side by side. Yamaha GH1's #5976242 and 5976036.

Peter - That's exactly one of the problems I have with this system!! If it's not done PERFECTLY, then game over, it will not work properly. There's just too much room for error.

Another example: A very large church I tune for has a Sauter 275 grand with a double tank on it. It is plugged in and kept up (yes, it was professionally installed) but the piano needs tuned every month. I've been dismayed at how unstable this piano is. Last month when I tuned it it was remarkably stable (you know where I'm going with this). The Dampp Chaser had been unplugged. I wasn't sure if this was on purpose so when I asked my contact they said it was by accident. I'm tuning that piano tomorrow so I'll see where it's at.

I know many of you believe in this system and so I'm touching on something very near and dear to you. I really don't want to offend anyone but this has bothered me for a long time. I just haven't seen good results from it. Is there anyone out there who will acknowledge that this system could be flawed? That maybe something like MusicSorb is a valid humidity control system?

 

Unless those two pianos were purchased at the same time and have lived side by side this is not a valid observation.

So, here's the deal...

Data loggers that track temperature and humidity are useful.  I use the EL-USB-2+.  You can use it to graph your data and visualize what is happening in the piano.

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

It is certainly possible that the system has a defective component. A competent piano service technician should be able to diagnose and solve the problem. It may be improper set up of perfectly functioning parts.
Keep in mind, too, that any humidistat will gradually drift away from accuracy. It's unreasonable to assume that "all" 20+ years old systems will function flawlessly.

Yes Larry. Purchased at the same time and are in identical rooms side by side. Yamaha GH1's #5976242 and 5976036.

Peter - That's exactly one of the problems I have with this system!! If it's not done PERFECTLY, then game over, it will not work properly. There's just too much room for error.

Another example: A very large church I tune for has a Sauter 275 grand with a double tank on it. It is plugged in and kept up (yes, it was professionally installed) but the piano needs tuned every month. I've been dismayed at how unstable this piano is. Last month when I tuned it it was remarkably stable (you know where I'm going with this). The Dampp Chaser had been unplugged. I wasn't sure if this was on purpose so when I asked my contact they said it was by accident. I'm tuning that piano tomorrow so I'll see where it's at.

I know many of you believe in this system and so I'm touching on something very near and dear to you. I really don't want to offend anyone but this has bothered me for a long time. I just haven't seen good results from it. Is there anyone out there who will acknowledge that this system could be flawed? That maybe something like MusicSorb is a valid humidity control system?

 

Unless those two pianos were purchased at the same time and have lived side by side this is not a valid observation.

So, here's the deal...

Data loggers that track temperature and humidity are useful.  I use the EL-USB-2+.  You can use it to graph your data and visualize what is happening in the piano.

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

Scott,

I'm seeing what appears to be a pattern here. These "faulty" systems have been installed by someone else...is it possible that they have all been installed by the same person? (Just a reasoned guess here).

Secondly, it seems that most of the ones you're unhappy with are in institutional environments...yes? (Church, school, etc). These types of environments are typically rather extreme and often (but not always) require a circulating ventilation system that brings in outside air more so than a typical (closed) home heating system. This air flow can cause the stat to operate somewhat erratically, which is why an undercover (on grands) is helpful and recommended (as well as a full top cover).

Thirdly, the fact that so many others of us have generally positive results with this system argues against the idea that the system in itself is flawed. It is stated quite plainly in the DC installation instructions that proper positioning of components (and moving air flow avoidance) is IMPORTANT to proper function. (Similar to a whole house A/C system design...to operate ideally there are specific parameters that must be considered with the installation. If these are ignored or not considered [poor installation], the effectiveness of the system will suffer and the occupants will not be comfortable DAMHIK...in fact there are specific similarities between these two systems). Part of our job as professionals is to be able to diagnose and correct this sort of thing (where possible).

Finally, of course the system is not perfect nor a panacea...AND maintenence is required (pad changing, etc). If tap water is being used in any of these systems there is going to be major crud removal necessary on a regular basis otherwise performance will be compromised. Is this being done? Or is it being ignored? (Again the a/c illustration comes to mind as needing regular maintenance).

There is always a reason...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

It is certainly possible that the system has a defective component. A competent piano service technician should be able to diagnose and solve the problem. It may be improper set up of perfectly functioning parts.
Keep in mind, too, that any humidistat will gradually drift away from accuracy. It's unreasonable to assume that "all" 20+ years old systems will function flawlessly.

Yes Larry. Purchased at the same time and are in identical rooms side by side. Yamaha GH1's #5976242 and 5976036.

Peter - That's exactly one of the problems I have with this system!! If it's not done PERFECTLY, then game over, it will not work properly. There's just too much room for error.

Another example: A very large church I tune for has a Sauter 275 grand with a double tank on it. It is plugged in and kept up (yes, it was professionally installed) but the piano needs tuned every month. I've been dismayed at how unstable this piano is. Last month when I tuned it it was remarkably stable (you know where I'm going with this). The Dampp Chaser had been unplugged. I wasn't sure if this was on purpose so when I asked my contact they said it was by accident. I'm tuning that piano tomorrow so I'll see where it's at.

I know many of you believe in this system and so I'm touching on something very near and dear to you. I really don't want to offend anyone but this has bothered me for a long time. I just haven't seen good results from it. Is there anyone out there who will acknowledge that this system could be flawed? That maybe something like MusicSorb is a valid humidity control system?

 

Unless those two pianos were purchased at the same time and have lived side by side this is not a valid observation.

So, here's the deal...

Data loggers that track temperature and humidity are useful.  I use the EL-USB-2+.  You can use it to graph your data and visualize what is happening in the piano.

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

Scott,

I'm seeing what appears to be a pattern here. These "faulty" systems have been installed by someone else...is it possible that they have all been installed by the same person? (Just a reasoned guess here).

Secondly, it seems that most of the ones you're unhappy with are in institutional environments...yes? (Church, school, etc). These types of environments are typically rather extreme and often (but not always) require a circulating ventilation system that brings in outside air more so than a typical (closed) home heating system. This air flow can cause the stat to operate somewhat erratically, which is why an undercover (on grands) is helpful and recommended (as well as a full top cover).

Thirdly, the fact that so many others of us have generally positive results with this system argues against the idea that the system in itself is flawed. It is stated quite plainly in the DC installation instructions that proper positioning of components (and moving air flow avoidance) is IMPORTANT to proper function. (Similar to a whole house A/C system design...to operate ideally there are specific parameters that must be considered with the installation. If these are ignored or not considered [poor installation], the effectiveness of the system will suffer and the occupants will not be comfortable DAMHIK...in fact there are specific similarities between these two systems). Part of our job as professionals is to be able to diagnose and correct this sort of thing (where possible).

Finally, of course the system is not perfect nor a panacea...AND maintenence is required (pad changing, etc). If tap water is being used in any of these systems there is going to be major crud removal necessary on a regular basis otherwise performance will be compromised. Is this being done? Or is it being ignored? (Again the a/c illustration comes to mind as needing regular maintenance).

There is always a reason...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

It is certainly possible that the system has a defective component. A competent piano service technician should be able to diagnose and solve the problem. It may be improper set up of perfectly functioning parts.
Keep in mind, too, that any humidistat will gradually drift away from accuracy. It's unreasonable to assume that "all" 20+ years old systems will function flawlessly.

Yes Larry. Purchased at the same time and are in identical rooms side by side. Yamaha GH1's #5976242 and 5976036.

Peter - That's exactly one of the problems I have with this system!! If it's not done PERFECTLY, then game over, it will not work properly. There's just too much room for error.

Another example: A very large church I tune for has a Sauter 275 grand with a double tank on it. It is plugged in and kept up (yes, it was professionally installed) but the piano needs tuned every month. I've been dismayed at how unstable this piano is. Last month when I tuned it it was remarkably stable (you know where I'm going with this). The Dampp Chaser had been unplugged. I wasn't sure if this was on purpose so when I asked my contact they said it was by accident. I'm tuning that piano tomorrow so I'll see where it's at.

I know many of you believe in this system and so I'm touching on something very near and dear to you. I really don't want to offend anyone but this has bothered me for a long time. I just haven't seen good results from it. Is there anyone out there who will acknowledge that this system could be flawed? That maybe something like MusicSorb is a valid humidity control system?

 

Unless those two pianos were purchased at the same time and have lived side by side this is not a valid observation.

So, here's the deal...

Data loggers that track temperature and humidity are useful.  I use the EL-USB-2+.  You can use it to graph your data and visualize what is happening in the piano.

Thanks for all the info.! It's a Yamaha grand C3 #5391255. I didn't install the system and I don't install them. To be honest, I'm not a fan of them, but they're already installed in some pianos when I come to work on them, so I have to deal with them. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?  

I agree with most of what has been recommended here so I won't repeat any of that. Here in Southern California we seldom get weather conditions that warrant the full Life Saver system. I generally recommend only the de-humidifier and then only in areas close to the beach or where the piano lives in a screwy environment. The full systems I have installed were in homes, (I discourage the full system in institutions), where they really were needed, and they have been a tremendous help in maintaining stability. Personally, I have only once come across a system that was wired backwards by someone else. I have, however, had only one occasion where the humidistat failed on a system that I had installed. Dampp-Chaser was very concerned. They sent me a replacement and asked for the old one back. They even reported back to me that yes, the humidistat had failed.

I always carry a thermometer/hygrometer. I check both temperature and humidity at every piano I tune, every time I tune it. To get an accurate reading I place the instrument in the piano but out of my way so it gets a reading of the conditions in the piano and not from the room. If the piano is way out I compare today's reading with the reading from the last tuning. If it's very different I know that the problem is environmental. Having a thermometer/hygrometer can also be useful in quickly seeing if the LS system is working correctly. In the de-humidifier system that failed on me, and which I had installed, I found that the RH at the piano was very low but the heater bars were on. Once the humidistat was replaced the piano once again became stable.

I recommend this one because it's inexpensive and can be calibrated easily at home.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HDW58GS/ref=emc_b_5_i

There is a limit to what a full system can do, however. If the piano lives in, say, a large church that can't afford to keep the room stable between services then the system is going to be competing against that. Usually unsuccessfully. A piano cover helps but, from personal experience, not enough. Most institutions where I have installed a full system have a high failure rate because they are improperly maintained or repeatedly get unplugged, turned off, or damaged by people moving the piano without training. I, therefore, don't recommend them. A  system with the humidifier part installed MUST be watched and maintained by the customer regularly or it WILL cause instability. Pianos in homes have a much better chance of being willingly and happily maintained by their owners. Every once in a while, on full systems, I have to replace the humidifier pads but I generally experience no other problems.

If it were me working with your two pianos, knowing that they are in similar environments, and seeing that the one with the LS system installed is behaving badly and the other is fine, I would simply unplug the system and watch it over several tunings to see if removing it actually fixed the problem. I sometimes come across pianos that did not need humidity control but the customer was scared into installing one by an aggressive tuner wanting to make a sale. When they are installed on a piano that needs it, they work wonderfully. When they are installed on a piano that does not need it, they are more problematic than helpful. 

I've got a church with a Piano Life Saver system on it and right now the heater bars are on and the humidity in the room is 26 percent. I'm afraid it's going to dry out the piano! I checked where things were plugged in and it all looked correct. So, educate me here. Why are the heater bars on in a room that is that dry?