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Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

  • 1.  Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Posted 04-19-2023 12:01
    Hi, All -- I'm currently restoring a Bosendorfer 170 from 1912, that has been in my wife's family since about 1915 or so (story for another time). Instrument is beginning to have difficulty holding tune in some registers. Consensus is that re-pinning is appropriate, and my questions relate to that. Some background:
    > I measured pin torque under string load and confirmed marginal (< 80 in/lbs) in many pins. Appears to have original 00 pins, so hardly a surprising result. In the overstrung basses pins are 000 and appear to be 90% original; the 10% that are a slightly different color mic out to be dimensionally identical to others. Pin torque in the overstrung register was consistently more robust as well.
     
    > Pinblock: I have the frame out to assess the Pinblock and to facilitate some minor soundboard repairs. Pinblock appears to be sufficiently sound to not mandate replacement (I'm up to the task, but heck of a project on this instrument)

    > After the pins were out and pinblock inspected, I saturated the sidewalls of all of the holes with thin cyanoacrylate. (It's an open hole pinblock, and in my experience in other situations, this helps seal end-grain and reduce moisture exchange during changing humidity, and hence improve dimensional stability.)

    > Plan is to replace original 00 pins with 000 pins (setting aside the overstrung region for a moment).  Will use Diamond pins.

    > Preliminary results from test pins: To test where things are now at and to get a sense of where and how from here, I installed both a new 00 pin (as a control to see how holes may have changed after CA saturation) and a new 000 pin. Torque to get 00 loose as if tuning is 80 in/lbs (better, but still marginal).  000 pin measured 183 in/lbs - high!  Granted, this is only 2 data points, and not under string tension.

    > My question is this: is a reading of 180 in/lbs typical for going up a pin size? If that's too high, would anyone recommend marginally boring out the holes with a drill / reamer sized for 000 pins? If so, I would use a portable drill-press indexed to the angle of the holes. I'm going to install a few more 000 test pins to generate additional data points, but I really wanted to tap the collective wisdom here.

    BTW, as you might have gathered, this is the first time doing a full restoration on a piano for me, and although I have repaired pianos from time to time, I would not presume to call myself a piano tech. I am however from a parallel universe, with a professional background in string instrument restoration, construction, research and instruction (violins, guitars, etc..)  Pianos are fascinating! This instrument will remain in our family, and we look forward to reproducing some of the house concerts the instrument was used for in Vienna prior to 1938 (story for another time).

    Thank you in advance (and more questions to come :-)
    JF



    --
    John Fabel  MS, IDSA
    Innovation, Entrepreneurship and Education 
    for Equity & Sustainability
    > Physics & Engineering Faculty, Amherst Regional High School
    > Generalist Entrepreneurial Mentor, Greentown Labs
    > Adjunct Professor,  Dept of Environmental Conservation / BCT
      
    University of Massachusetts/Amherst


  • 2.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Member
    Posted 04-19-2023 20:35

    80 inch lbs of torque is not bad at all 183 inch lbs is way to high !!! I have a chart that I will try to upload that shows the ideal range of torque with comments from way too loose to extremely tight. easy to tune, ideal, danger of slipping, danger of breaking. I have treated dozens and dozens of pin blocks in both vertical and grand pianos. CA glue is like a miracle drug and extremely effective. I have never had the need to remove the tuning pins like you have done. Furthermore you should removethe action and protect the keybed from glue dripping. If you are driving in pins make sure to support the pinblock or you will crack the block . DO NOT DRILL, REAM the block . The CA will fill the gap between the tuning pin threads and the sidewall of the existing hole in the block . You should stick with the 2.0 pins.  Check the torque on all of the A's, C's, random notes througout the scale. Treat the pins and after the CA cures measure the torque again. It is not uncommon to turn a 40 inch lb pin to an 80 inch lb torque



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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 3.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Member
    Posted 04-19-2023 23:39
      |   view attached

    This chart came from an article in the PTG Journal by Nick Gravange



    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Posted 04-22-2023 10:26
    Thank you all for your thoughtful, insightful and useful replies- much appreciated! I'm next going to gather more data through systematically reinstalling some 00 pins, and see where this points.
    I removed the pins for a number of reasons, not the least of which that it facilitated removal of the frame essential to assessing condition of the pin block. 
    Soundboard is in good shape; ditto crown and downbearing.
    For background, after being rescued out of Vienna in 1938 along with my wife's family, the piano lived in the greater NY area until arriving in my workshop in western MA in 2018. In my shop I've attempted to keep the instrument in the mid 40% RH range. (For other instruments I work on, this is neutral RH for this region, and this is where it will be living)
    Thanks again, JF 
    --
    John Fabel  MS, IDSA
    Innovation, Entrepreneurship and Education 
    for Equity & Sustainability
    > Physics & Engineering Faculty, Amherst Regional High School
    > Generalist Entrepreneurial Mentor, Greentown Labs
    > Adjunct Professor,  Dept of Environmental Conservation / BCT
      
    University of Massachusetts/Amherst





  • 5.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Posted 04-23-2023 18:37
    Hi, all - based on feedback from you all, further data collection, and studying up, I've come to the conclusion that it'a clearly time to replace the pinblock. Job and a half on this instrument, hence my tinkering around a bit to see how the block would respond. However,      The objective at hand is to not only stay in tune, but to also hopefully have good tuning feel as well. Given the instrument and the level of restoration, and condition /apparent history of t he PB) it only makes sense.
     I'm thinking of using a Bolduc pinblock, which a lot of you seem to like and appears closer to the original in structure and material than the multi lam veneer boards. It also comes from not too far up the road from here. ( I actually have some very suitable quart-sawn Sugar Maple from our land that I milled up for instruments, but I'll resist the temptation). The pinblock is partly open, and has a relatively complex multi-level surface compared to other PB's I've seen. Among other things, it's bonded quite securely to the lock rail; based on specifics of construction, sequence-wise it looks like the PB and the lock rail may well have been joined prior to installation (but after block had been chalk fit to the frame). Although I no longer have my Bridgeport, I do still have a solid mill that I can use to drill the block. I'll be sure to be circling back for more insights on the finer points of drilling, etc.  Thanks again, (including for going easy on me :-)
    JF 
    --
    John Fabel  MS, IDSA
    Innovation, Entrepreneurship and Education 
    for Equity & Sustainability
    > Physics & Engineering Faculty, Amherst Regional High School
    > Generalist Entrepreneurial Mentor, Greentown Labs
    > Adjunct Professor,  Dept of Environmental Conservation / BCT
      
    University of Massachusetts/Amherst





  • 6.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-23-2023 19:06
    I think the Bolduc block is definitely the way to go.  I use them exclusively.  I also use 1/0 pins and use them with as much length as the block will allow.  I pre-drill with a .200" bit, then do the final fit with a .250" bit up to note 50 or so, at which time I switch to a .254" bit.  This gives me a consistent 120-125 in/lbs in the bottom half and closer to 110-115 in the top, which, after a couple of years has dropped 10% and remains stable after that.  Comfortable tuning with a great feel. I have never had a jumpy pin doing it this way. 

       The pre-drill protocol came out of Ron Nossaman's promotion of same, and gets around ALL of the heat problems associated with drilling blocks, as well as making any variability of  the feed speed somewhat irrelevant.  .  I think the accuracy of the hole is improved, too, as the second drilling is not being 'steered' by the point of the drill, but, rather , the sides.  The .050" difference allows me to eyeball how concentric the second drilling is before the drill's full diameter is in the hole.  

       I have tried the Falconwood, the Schaff, the Delignite, blocks, and Bolduc is, IMO, better than any of them.  
    Regards, 





  • 7.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-24-2023 10:30

    The other challenge will be if the pinblock in morticed into the sides of the case or whether each end sits on some kind of shelf like most more modern pinblocks.



    ------------------------------
    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
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  • 8.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2023 01:22

    In discussions involving pinblocks and tuning pins it is also helpful to include climate information if possible. Like: Where has the piano lived most of it life and where is the piano is living now. I like James Kelly comments. In particular: DO NOT DRILL, REAM the block 

    The Torque chart is helpful but personally I lean toward tighter pins because chipping and tuning are going to loosen things up not to mention climate effects.



    ------------------------------
    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-20-2023 08:36

    Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that 2/0 or 3/0 pins would be "original" in a Bosendorfer. 1/0 or close to it would be more likely as original. It sounds to me like this piano has been repinned/restrung at least once in its overdue lifespan. And the fact that it was not done with a consistent pin size should serve as a red flag that there were problems to come with. Those problems likely have not gone away.  😕 

    Just my thoughts on the matter.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 10.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Posted 04-22-2023 21:05

    John, yes, best of luck on your restoration work. In hindsight, it might have been nice if you had gotten technical advice before deciding to remove the tuning pins, remove the plate, and apply CA glue to the pin block. Even now you might want to consider hiring a piano tech professional to at least give you the benefit of their hands-on experience in areas like replacing the plate, fixing minor soundboard cracks, reinserting tuning pins for uniform torque, and more.

    Regards, Norman



    ------------------------------
    Norman Brickman
    Potomac Piano Service
    Potomac, Maryland
    potomacpiano@verizon.net
    https://potomacpiano.com
    (301) 983.9321
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Re-pinning Q, re moving from 00 to 000; Bosendorfer 170 from 1912

    Posted 04-25-2023 22:00

    On an instrument such as this, I suggest if you are doing any major work, try to copy the original specs and design intent as much as possible.
    The original pins in most European pianos of that time would have been 6.75 mm = .266".  Piano Forte Supply should be able to get these for you.
    Note that the pin block is most likely morticed into both sides of the cabinet. The pin blocks were installed before the inner pieces of the rim the above them were glued in.  There can also be hidden or buried screws.
    Bolduc has a method for replacing these kind of pin blocks.



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    Jurgen Goering
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