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readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

  • 1.  readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-20-2023 13:16

    Greetings,

    I will spare you the backstory, but we are about to glue some WNG heels and shank rests onto their wippen bodies. WNG recommends high viscosity CA gel. It is likely that these wippens will need to be reconfigured down the road, so we are wondering if there is an adhesive that is reliable enough to not come apart is usage, but is readily reversible when the time comes to swap out and relocate the heels.

    Can anyone out there make an informed recommendation?

    Thanks,

    Alan



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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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  • 2.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-21-2023 12:05

    Alan,

    I don't know for sure, however if I was faced with this I would (using a spare) glue the heel on with the tiniest two drops of CA you can muster. Then let a day or two go by for full cure. Then apply heat (judiciously of course) with heat gun and see if you can get them apart (probably with slip joint pliers on the heel) without damaging anything. If that works then it probably wouldn't be that big of a job to separate them all when the time comes. 

    If that were to prove fruitless, I might try an acetone based adhesive such as Fabri-tac or possibly Aleen's. Fabri-tac is pretty strong in use but will melt. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-21-2023 12:46
    Hi Alan, I've been experimenting with whole ton of glues and WNG shanks into upright butts as well into wood. I have to say that for hanging the hammers on the shanks with a little bit of scuffing of the shanks titrbond quick and thick does a pretty excellent job in non extreme environments.  Most glues just won't do a sufficient job at holding with the strength that we need in shank into upright butt scenario or for wippen cushion attachment. But I did find that the e6000 glue even though it remains relatively flexible should have sufficient hold for something like shank rests. For the wippen cushion you might do a test or two as I'm sure you can remove it fairly easily with some light pressure but if it has a tight fit I bet you that glue will hold up. Anyway, please do share your results.  Best,  



    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-21-2023 14:53

    Yes, the 6000 is also an acetone based adhesive. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Posted 10-21-2023 16:09

    B-72 might be worth a test. It's often used as an adhesive at higher concetrations in conservation for repairing ceramics, fossils, etc. and is definitely reversible. I usually see around 40-80% concentration weight:volume for adhesive use. Either acetone or 190+ proof alcohol would work (acetone preferable in this case due to faster dry time-it shouldn't interact with the nylon plastic WNG uses as a base). It's pretty low viscosity, but can be thickened with fumed silica (often used to thicken epoxy).

    When you mix it, suspend the B-72 pellets in a cheesecloth in the solvent. It'll help keep it in contact with the solvent instead of the bottom of the jar.

    I haven't tried it as an alternative to CA quite like this, but I use it fix cracked ivory a lot. I keep some in an empty nail polish bottle.



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    Mathias Walters
    North Charleston SC
    (843) 619-7593
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-21-2023 18:48

    Hi Alan,

    We have a similar situation in our shop when we redesign an action for new keys and action parts (or whole stacks).  We have to make an educated guess at the magic line and heel height before the build so we can set things up and make sure it all works.  We only use two wippens on notes 1 and 88. We glue up the heels with Roo glue (Pianotek / Schaff). I was surprised that it's quite a strong bond, not as strong as CA Gel glue, but strong enough since there's almost no stress on that joint. At the end of the process we may change the heels a mm or two.
    In any case, Roo glue releases with heat quite nicely.  We do find cleaning the Roo glue out is a time consuming chore though, so the 2nd set you may want to stick with Roo glue if it works reliably. I don't know if it would work to reglue later with CA glue mixed with Roo glue.
    -Dean


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    Dean Reyburn, RPT
    Reyburn Pianoworks
    Reyburn CyberTuner
    1-616-498-9854
    dean@reyburn.com
    www.reyburnpianoworks.com
    www.cybertuner.com
    www.reyburntools.com
    Facebook: www.facebook.com/dean.reyburn
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Posted 10-21-2023 18:54

    If Roo glue is working, there's a conservation adhesive I use on keytops called Jade R that is similar to a PVA glue (PVC-E, Aileen's, Titebond Melamine, etc.). It is fully reversible with water. I thought the PVA family of glues would be too rubbery. Jade R is just a little thinner than PVC-E, but is still very tacky and handles very similarly.



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    Mathias Walters
    North Charleston SC
    (843) 619-7593
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-24-2023 10:30

    I glued some knuckles to WNG shanks with Pianotek's PVC-E to try out the position, meaning to go back and use CA on them later. The bond was so strong I left them alone. It's been 5 years or so with no problem.



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    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-02-2023 12:23

    Alan,

    What did you end up doing with this?

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-02-2023 14:54
    Roo.




    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: readily reversible adhesive for WNG heel-to-wippen glue-up

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-02-2023 15:47

    👍 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message