Pianotech

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it. 
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

If you mute the string slightly offset from midway after the damper has landed, what happens? And if you mute it exactly at midway, what happens?

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

James Arledge has a great video on longitudinal waves in a piano string. This might be what's occurring in your L. 

https://pianostrings.com/LONGITUDINAL.htm

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

Three additional things i look for are:
1. If the damper felt runs across the whole damper head.  Which only makes it harder to seat.
2. A loose agraffe. 
3. Bass string winding problems. They could be bad, loose, wrong length. And if a bi-chord has a diameter mismatch..

-chris


------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key, and Mammoths are not extinct."
865-986-7720 (text only please)
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10/1/2022 11:19:00 AM
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: RE: rogue harmonic

Three additional things i look for are:
1. If the damper felt runs across the whole damper head.  Which only makes it harder to seat.
2. A loose agraffe. 
3. Bass string winding problems. They could be bad, loose, wrong length. And if a bi-chord has a diameter mismatch..

-chris


------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key, and Mammoths are not extinct."
865-986-7720 (text only please)
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

I encountered something similar on a Steinway D.
Here are some questions:
Is the distance between the front termination and the damper wire about 1/5 of the string length? The fifth harmonic of F is A.
Is F2 a bichord string?
Is the A harmonic vibrating vertically or horizontally? A horizontal string vibration can pivot through the damper by slightly rotating the damper wire.
So, try slightly detuning the F2 at the 5th harmonic, so that the strings are out of phase and will not cooperate to rotate the damper.
On the Steinway F2 is a trichord, and a slight detuning made a better blend crossing to the bass bridge. The complaint had been an after ring after playing a staccato A. With the detuning, the after ring damped itself in about a half second.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

Ed: brilliant. 

Question: How does one determine if the A harmonic is vibrating vertically or horizontally? By simply observing the movement of the string, I assume? 

Thanks. 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 12:40
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: rogue harmonic

I encountered something similar on a Steinway D.
Here are some questions:
Is the distance between the front termination and the damper wire about 1/5 of the string length? The fifth harmonic of F is A.
Is F2 a bichord string?
Is the A harmonic vibrating vertically or horizontally? A horizontal string vibration can pivot through the damper by slightly rotating the damper wire.
So, try slightly detuning the F2 at the 5th harmonic, so that the strings are out of phase and will not cooperate to rotate the damper.
On the Steinway F2 is a trichord, and a slight detuning made a better blend crossing to the bass bridge. The complaint had been an after ring after playing a staccato A. With the detuning, the after ring damped itself in about a half second.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

Nancy,

Also try tightening up the guide rail bushing so as to reduce/prevent side to side movement of the damper. IOW this will strengthen its damping effect (assumingthere is some slop there). My first method would be to remove the damper wire, apply a couple of drops of VS-profelt to the bushing WITHOUT any caul. Let it do its thing and dry. Then install the damper and you will probably need to re-regulate its position so as to damp both strings equally.

If that does little or nothing I would lengthen (probably) the damper felt on the side toward which the harmonic is coming from (possibly both sides if I feel like it).

Finally, if neither of those work, a slight amount of lead solder added to ONE SIDE of the damper head (asymmetrical damping) should enhance its capabilities. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 13:19
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: rogue harmonic

Ed: brilliant.

Question: How does one determine if the A harmonic is vibrating vertically or horizontally? By simply observing the movement of the string, I assume?

Thanks. 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 12:40
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: rogue harmonic

I encountered something similar on a Steinway D.
Here are some questions:
Is the distance between the front termination and the damper wire about 1/5 of the string length? The fifth harmonic of F is A.
Is F2 a bichord string?
Is the A harmonic vibrating vertically or horizontally? A horizontal string vibration can pivot through the damper by slightly rotating the damper wire.
So, try slightly detuning the F2 at the 5th harmonic, so that the strings are out of phase and will not cooperate to rotate the damper.
On the Steinway F2 is a trichord, and a slight detuning made a better blend crossing to the bass bridge. The complaint had been an after ring after playing a staccato A. With the detuning, the after ring damped itself in about a half second.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

Touch the tip of the damper on the side and see if the after ring stops. Note that on the D this damper is cantilevered from the bushing hole because it's next to the plate strut.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 13:19
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: rogue harmonic

Ed: brilliant.

Question: How does one determine if the A harmonic is vibrating vertically or horizontally? By simply observing the movement of the string, I assume?

Thanks. 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 12:40
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: rogue harmonic

I encountered something similar on a Steinway D.
Here are some questions:
Is the distance between the front termination and the damper wire about 1/5 of the string length? The fifth harmonic of F is A.
Is F2 a bichord string?
Is the A harmonic vibrating vertically or horizontally? A horizontal string vibration can pivot through the damper by slightly rotating the damper wire.
So, try slightly detuning the F2 at the 5th harmonic, so that the strings are out of phase and will not cooperate to rotate the damper.
On the Steinway F2 is a trichord, and a slight detuning made a better blend crossing to the bass bridge. The complaint had been an after ring after playing a staccato A. With the detuning, the after ring damped itself in about a half second.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

Maggie --

In the Arledge video he demonstrates how to test. I believe he just brushes the string along its length to set up a longitudinal wave that travels back and forth from termination point to termination point rather than an up/down wave.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 13:19
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: rogue harmonic

Ed: brilliant.

Question: How does one determine if the A harmonic is vibrating vertically or horizontally? By simply observing the movement of the string, I assume?

Thanks. 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 12:40
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: rogue harmonic

I encountered something similar on a Steinway D.
Here are some questions:
Is the distance between the front termination and the damper wire about 1/5 of the string length? The fifth harmonic of F is A.
Is F2 a bichord string?
Is the A harmonic vibrating vertically or horizontally? A horizontal string vibration can pivot through the damper by slightly rotating the damper wire.
So, try slightly detuning the F2 at the 5th harmonic, so that the strings are out of phase and will not cooperate to rotate the damper.
On the Steinway F2 is a trichord, and a slight detuning made a better blend crossing to the bass bridge. The complaint had been an after ring after playing a staccato A. With the detuning, the after ring damped itself in about a half second.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

Thanks, Geoff. I'm asking about horizontal vs vertical, though, as opposed to longitudinal. I understand a string vibrates in a circle/oval, but Ed has pointed out that the oval can affect damper seating depending on where the widest part of the oval is directed. Thanks, Ed! I would not have thought about it in this way. Cool.

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 17:27
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: rogue harmonic

Maggie --

In the Arledge video he demonstrates how to test. I believe he just brushes the string along its length to set up a longitudinal wave that travels back and forth from termination point to termination point rather than an up/down wave.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 13:19
From: Maggie Jusiel
Subject: rogue harmonic

Ed: brilliant.

Question: How does one determine if the A harmonic is vibrating vertically or horizontally? By simply observing the movement of the string, I assume?

Thanks. 

------------------------------
Maggie Jusiel, RPT
Athens, WV
(304)952-8615
mags@timandmaggie.net

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 12:40
From: Ed Sutton
Subject: rogue harmonic

I encountered something similar on a Steinway D.
Here are some questions:
Is the distance between the front termination and the damper wire about 1/5 of the string length? The fifth harmonic of F is A.
Is F2 a bichord string?
Is the A harmonic vibrating vertically or horizontally? A horizontal string vibration can pivot through the damper by slightly rotating the damper wire.
So, try slightly detuning the F2 at the 5th harmonic, so that the strings are out of phase and will not cooperate to rotate the damper.
On the Steinway F2 is a trichord, and a slight detuning made a better blend crossing to the bass bridge. The complaint had been an after ring after playing a staccato A. With the detuning, the after ring damped itself in about a half second.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413

Original Message:
Sent: 10-01-2022 08:23
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it.
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

If the edge of the damper is at a node, that would account for your observation, Nancy. A shorter damper might be better than a longer damper. The point would be to move the edge of the damper away from the node. To experiment, remove that piece of damper felt and slide the edge away from its current position. You wouldn’t need to glue in in to test this. Slidling it back and forth and/or shortening it would test whether the A stops sounding.

Bob Anderson, RPT
Tucson, AZ


Original Message:
Sent: 10/1/2022 8:23:00 AM
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it. 
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10/2/2022 10:23:00 AM
From: Robert Anderson
Subject: RE: rogue harmonic

If the edge of the damper is at a node, that would account for your observation, Nancy. A shorter damper might be better than a longer damper. The point would be to move the edge of the damper away from the node. To experiment, remove that piece of damper felt and slide the edge away from its current position. You wouldn’t need to glue in in to test this. Slidling it back and forth and/or shortening it would test whether the A stops sounding.

Bob Anderson, RPT
Tucson, AZ


Original Message:
Sent: 10/1/2022 8:23:00 AM
From: Nancy Salmon
Subject: rogue harmonic

I care for a Baldwin L. When one plays any A on this piano, and releases it, an A continues to ring. After much searching the source was found to be F2 bichord.
The F2 damper functions properly; lifts and falls at the right time and mutes the F2 completely. The harmonic is coming from the length of strings between the damper and the bridge. More force on the damper doesn't seem to affect the ringing.
I'm looking for ideas on how to deal with this. The owner is quite distracted by it. 
New, longer damper felt on the F2? weights on the damper lever? Softer or harder damper felt?
In 45 years I've never run into this sympathetic vibration.
Thanks for any ideas, Nancy Salmon, RPT
                                   LaVale, MD 21502

------------------------------
Nancy M. Salmon, RPT
Frostburg State University
LaVale, MD
301-729-4171
------------------------------