Pianotech

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

If the hammers are way too hard (strong assumption here considering the make) pianissimo will be difficult no matter what. But generally my first order of business (assuming pinning is not a culprit) is to get weight off the hammers. A good strong filing with significant felt removal (especially down on the shoulders and away from the strike where excess felt is useless), staple removal sometimes, increasing side taper, trimming all excess wood from the tail area (inside particularly), etc. Every gram at the hammer equals 5 grams at the key, so there's a lot of bang for the buck here. This may allow you to begin removing lead from the keys.

You might want to measure the spec of hammershank centerpiece to center of knuckle (roller) core and tell us what that is.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hi Peter,

16 mm cones to mind for the knuckle centre to hammer flange centre, but I'll check that again to confirm.

As for the hammer mass, there's a problem. I just love the tone of the original fat hammers, and so am loathe to interfere with them.

I know, I'm probably avoiding the inevitable but I've pretty well got them singing sweetly 🎶 after considerable effort from vice grips (credit to Stephan Brady "Under the lid") to needling.

I'm a bit scared of irreversible loss of felt 😔.

But also, if hammer mass is a problem, granted, then seems that as we move up the piano, high tenor to treble, the regulation should improve? which it doesn't.??

Cheers

If the hammers are way too hard (strong assumption here considering the make) pianissimo will be difficult no matter what. But generally my first order of business (assuming pinning is not a culprit) is to get weight off the hammers. A good strong filing with significant felt removal (especially down on the shoulders and away from the strike where excess felt is useless), staple removal sometimes, increasing side taper, trimming all excess wood from the tail area (inside particularly), etc. Every gram at the hammer equals 5 grams at the key, so there's a lot of bang for the buck here. This may allow you to begin removing lead from the keys.

You might want to measure the spec of hammershank centerpiece to center of knuckle (roller) core and tell us what that is.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the hammer checking and rep spring tension.  Many of these pianos have hammers that were tailed before hanging, so that when the hammers were hung the tails will not be perpendicular to the hammer shanks.  So the backchecks are angled to match the tails.  This puts some strain on the hammer flanges, and less than ideal checking.  With an action like this, I would sand the tails square  and make sure the proper curvature is created for optimum checking.  The repetition will improve for sure.  Also, make sure the rep spring tension is not too high.  You didn't mention what the checking distance is, but that will interact with the spring tension.  Often we tend to increase the tension if the hammer doesn't rise according to spec, but there may be another reason the hammers aren't rising or rising too fast.  If checking is too high, you'll have to increase the tension to see much hammer rise.  Friction of the knuckle/jack/window will also affect the situation.  You might spray some lubrilon or other lubrication on the jacks and window to help out.  If the springs are too strong, you won't be able to get much control in light playing.

Hi Peter,

16 mm cones to mind for the knuckle centre to hammer flange centre, but I'll check that again to confirm.

As for the hammer mass, there's a problem. I just love the tone of the original fat hammers, and so am loathe to interfere with them.

I know, I'm probably avoiding the inevitable but I've pretty well got them singing sweetly 🎶 after considerable effort from vice grips (credit to Stephan Brady "Under the lid") to needling.

I'm a bit scared of irreversible loss of felt 😔.

But also, if hammer mass is a problem, granted, then seems that as we move up the piano, high tenor to treble, the regulation should improve? which it doesn't.??

Cheers

If the hammers are way too hard (strong assumption here considering the make) pianissimo will be difficult no matter what. But generally my first order of business (assuming pinning is not a culprit) is to get weight off the hammers. A good strong filing with significant felt removal (especially down on the shoulders and away from the strike where excess felt is useless), staple removal sometimes, increasing side taper, trimming all excess wood from the tail area (inside particularly), etc. Every gram at the hammer equals 5 grams at the key, so there's a lot of bang for the buck here. This may allow you to begin removing lead from the keys.

You might want to measure the spec of hammershank centerpiece to center of knuckle (roller) core and tell us what that is.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hi Peter,

16 mm cones to mind for the knuckle centre to hammer flange centre, but I'll check that again to confirm.

As for the hammer mass, there's a problem. I just love the tone of the original fat hammers, and so am loathe to interfere with them.

I know, I'm probably avoiding the inevitable but I've pretty well got them singing sweetly 🎶 after considerable effort from vice grips (credit to Stephan Brady "Under the lid") to needling.

I'm a bit scared of irreversible loss of felt 😔.

But also, if hammer mass is a problem, granted, then seems that as we move up the piano, high tenor to treble, the regulation should improve? which it doesn't.??

Cheers

If the hammers are way too hard (strong assumption here considering the make) pianissimo will be difficult no matter what. But generally my first order of business (assuming pinning is not a culprit) is to get weight off the hammers. A good strong filing with significant felt removal (especially down on the shoulders and away from the strike where excess felt is useless), staple removal sometimes, increasing side taper, trimming all excess wood from the tail area (inside particularly), etc. Every gram at the hammer equals 5 grams at the key, so there's a lot of bang for the buck here. This may allow you to begin removing lead from the keys.

You might want to measure the spec of hammershank centerpiece to center of knuckle (roller) core and tell us what that is.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hi Peter,

16 mm cones to mind for the knuckle centre to hammer flange centre, but I'll check that again to confirm.

As for the hammer mass, there's a problem. I just love the tone of the original fat hammers, and so am loathe to interfere with them.

I know, I'm probably avoiding the inevitable but I've pretty well got them singing sweetly 🎶 after considerable effort from vice grips (credit to Stephan Brady "Under the lid") to needling.

I'm a bit scared of irreversible loss of felt 😔.

But also, if hammer mass is a problem, granted, then seems that as we move up the piano, high tenor to treble, the regulation should improve? which it doesn't.??

Cheers

If the hammers are way too hard (strong assumption here considering the make) pianissimo will be difficult no matter what. But generally my first order of business (assuming pinning is not a culprit) is to get weight off the hammers. A good strong filing with significant felt removal (especially down on the shoulders and away from the strike where excess felt is useless), staple removal sometimes, increasing side taper, trimming all excess wood from the tail area (inside particularly), etc. Every gram at the hammer equals 5 grams at the key, so there's a lot of bang for the buck here. This may allow you to begin removing lead from the keys.

You might want to measure the spec of hammershank centerpiece to center of knuckle (roller) core and tell us what that is.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

That's the right idea, although I don't know of the top of my head if eyeballing it from a photo is accurate enough.

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Fair enough. Let me see if I can slip a ruler inside the bracket to get a line. It looks like it could be within a bull's roar. 

But thanks for that nice piece of geometry property.

If you happen to have a link for the diagram, I'm still trying to find one.

Certainly seems to make sense that the parts meet at the common radius on the capstan for the smoothest locus. Like two gears mating on the centreline.  I like it. Very nice idea.

Cheers

That's the right idea, although I don't know of the top of my head if eyeballing it from a photo is accurate enough.

Hi Nathan,

Friction is probably on the low side.

Typical DW is 55g, UW is 35g, giving friction 10g. 

Action swing test showed some slow hammer centres, which I lubed, eased, repinned to give a fairly even swing. Bit on the loose side maybe.

I reasoned that with such heavy bass hammers, 12g or more, and heaps of key leads to disturb the key balance, a little on the light side of friction might be ok?

So centres seem okish. 

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

> However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank).

I think this is a rather misleading statement. The angle at which the jack touches the knuckle is less important than the alignment of the jack relative to the knuckle core. The jack, at rest, should be adjusted so that the back edge of the jack lines up with the back of the knuckle core. In the pic he posted it appears to me that he already has that adjustment set correctly. 

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

> However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank).

I think this is a rather misleading statement. The angle at which the jack touches the knuckle is less important than the alignment of the jack relative to the knuckle core. The jack, at rest, should be adjusted so that the back edge of the jack lines up with the back of the knuckle core. In the pic he posted it appears to me that he already has that adjustment set correctly. 

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank).

I think this is a rather misleading statement. The angle at which the jack touches the knuckle is less important than the alignment of the jack relative to the knuckle core. The jack, at rest, should be adjusted so that the back edge of the jack lines up with the back of the knuckle core. In the pic he posted it appears to me that he already has that adjustment set correctly. 

Geoff,

This was assumed in the original statement, however it is acknowledged that an assumption makes an........

Nonetheless, action spread is very important to this configuration. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

> However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank).

I think this is a rather misleading statement. The angle at which the jack touches the knuckle is less important than the alignment of the jack relative to the knuckle core. The jack, at rest, should be adjusted so that the back edge of the jack lines up with the back of the knuckle core. In the pic he posted it appears to me that he already has that adjustment set correctly. 

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

The jack has maximum power when it's perpendicular to the hammer shank/knuckle. The jack is like a piston and is subject to timing, if that makes any sense. The jack center pin and dogleg are analogous to a crankshaft. 

 I'm guessing that in addition to jack and rep lever screws being turned almost to the end, the let off buttons had to be turned up to get appropriate let off.

When regulation screws need to be turned all the way in or out and felt needs to be trimmed to make the whippen work, that is a red flag.

The April 2019 Journal has an extensive article by Jim Laleggio on action spread etc.

However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank).

I think this is a rather misleading statement. The angle at which the jack touches the knuckle is less important than the alignment of the jack relative to the knuckle core. The jack, at rest, should be adjusted so that the back edge of the jack lines up with the back of the knuckle core. In the pic he posted it appears to me that he already has that adjustment set correctly. 

Geoff,

This was assumed in the original statement, however it is acknowledged that an assumption makes an........

Nonetheless, action spread is very important to this configuration. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

> However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank).

I think this is a rather misleading statement. The angle at which the jack touches the knuckle is less important than the alignment of the jack relative to the knuckle core. The jack, at rest, should be adjusted so that the back edge of the jack lines up with the back of the knuckle core. In the pic he posted it appears to me that he already has that adjustment set correctly. 

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

If all the previous recommendations fail to achieve your results, there is one more point to consider – the capstan to wippen contact point. Though it is recommended that the capstan pass through the balance pin to wippen flange bushing line at half blow there may be one other issue at play. First, check to see if there is an accumulated deep concave indentation on the wippen butt felt. That condition may be attributed to your touch problem as the capstan will be "climbing" up a hill during the last half stroke of the key. Also, the concaved wippen felt will throw off the action geometry because, for example, at half key stroke the capstan will not be in contact with the original engineered wippen profile. In effect, at half stroke, the key will not have raised the wippen to its proper half-stroke height – it will be slightly shy of its presumed rise. That condition would require you to increase the key dip or reduced hammer blow to achieve proper after touch. Unfortunately, making those adjustments in that manner would cause your let-off point to be misplaced in the key travel. It would be like throwing a baseball and letting loose too late in your arm stroke. You let go of the ball at the maximum mechanical advantage point of your arm stroke.

I believe I see in your photo there is an interface felt under the wippen profile felt. That interface felt, incorporated by many higher quality pianos, provides you a path to correct the concaving wippen felt problem. You can insert a bolstering felt between the two felts. I found that procedure to be very effective when dealing with aging pianos that just don't "line up" with the given manufacture's specifications.

I developed a tool to quickly insert the bolstering felt. If you find that my description of your problem is the culprit, I'll send you a picture of it. Maybe I'll manufacture it if enough interest is aired.

Roger

------------------------------
Roger Gable RPT
Gable Piano
Everett WA
(425) 252-5000

Original Message:
Sent: 08-10-2024 18:37
From: Peter Sharp
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Hello, I am seeking help and ideas with a fundamental issue with regulating my own Samick grand.

NSG-186, born 2011 in Korea. 

It is a question of touch response, specifically legato control at pianissimo. 

Whilst setting let-off as close as possible, say 2 mm in the tenor, with drop quite close say less than 2 mm beyond LO, for a dip of 10 mm measured over the front key pin, the blow is given as 43 mm. 

The dip includes an aftertouch of 0.8 to 1 mm

Thus the blow is quite less than usually suggested at say 47 mm. However, I prefer the dip remain at no more than 10 mm, over the pin, hence the blow restriction.

Now this regulation is not giving a touch control at strike, particularly when playing softly and legato.

Repetition is poor, as in soft trills.

The key height is 73mm, well above "standard" of say 64mm, but keyslip cover is 4 mm with a square profile of 23 x 23 of key front.

The keyframe is bedded well, so i can't see any way to rdeuce the key height.

I suspect the key height is somehow causing the touch issue but really don't know how.

If anyone has any suggestions at all, i would be most appreciative. I'm definitely open to criticism and welcome out-there ideas.

I'll start with one myself: the Samick is probably not a good place to start for nice touch control 😔

Thank you

Peter Sharp (Australia)

Repetition springs are set just to give a definite rise from check, not too fast but reliable.

Back check is set in the range 12-15 mm

------------------------------
Peter Sharp
Armidale NSW
+61-439064948
------------------------------

The jack has maximum power when it's perpendicular to the hammer shank/knuckle. The jack is like a piston and is subject to timing, if that makes any sense. The jack center pin and dogleg are analogous to a crankshaft. 

 I'm guessing that in addition to jack and rep lever screws being turned almost to the end, the let off buttons had to be turned up to get appropriate let off.

When regulation screws need to be turned all the way in or out and felt needs to be trimmed to make the whippen work, that is a red flag.

The April 2019 Journal has an extensive article by Jim Laleggio on action spread etc.

However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank).

I think this is a rather misleading statement. The angle at which the jack touches the knuckle is less important than the alignment of the jack relative to the knuckle core. The jack, at rest, should be adjusted so that the back edge of the jack lines up with the back of the knuckle core. In the pic he posted it appears to me that he already has that adjustment set correctly. 

Geoff,

This was assumed in the original statement, however it is acknowledged that an assumption makes an........

Nonetheless, action spread is very important to this configuration. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

> However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank).

I think this is a rather misleading statement. The angle at which the jack touches the knuckle is less important than the alignment of the jack relative to the knuckle core. The jack, at rest, should be adjusted so that the back edge of the jack lines up with the back of the knuckle core. In the pic he posted it appears to me that he already has that adjustment set correctly. 

Additionally, if the jacks were binding at the cushion that is usually an indicator of too much dip (and AT). Typically we want the jack to just clear the knuckle (or centered between knuckle and whip stop cushion). 

It sounds like you already know that hammer blow spec is not set in stone, and neither is dip. However what is set in stone is that the jack (at hammer rest point) must be at 90° to the knuckle core (and technically the hammershank). This almost always requires the shank to be about a shank's thickness above the rest rail at rest. 

Remember that the further the jack is from the knuckle at full dip, the further it needs to travel to reset under the knuckle for the next cycle. 

BTW, what was your procedure for setting the BR studs?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter S, I'm starting to have deja vu of mistakes I've made by changing more than one thing at a time.

Others can correct me but I've always considered the action spread to be more or less sacrosanct. A couple of mm's is quite a bit. Also, restore the jack setting so it is 90º to the knuckle as Peter G suggested and then see where you're at. I think that might increase your dip. Are the let off buttons turned particularly up or down?

I have a question about the "A" and "B" marks on the frame next to the whippen rail. What is the significance of that? This would be tied in with action spread.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter G, I noticed that too but I think the first hammer is lower because it isn't held up by the rep. lever, even at that the next shank  isn't higher by much; it looks like the rest rail is already nearly bottomed out on its posts and quite close to the tops of the whippen flanges and the hammer blow is already quite short. Indeed, the jack regulating screw is nearly turned forward all the way so there's room to move there. The rep. lever regulation screw is turned down almost all the way. Confusing.

It would be interesting to know, per Geoff's point, where the strike point actually is on the hammers. Whether it's the hammers, shanks, or keyframe, something seems way off. The magic line seems to indicate that the capstans could be turned up some. 

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 16:36
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

Peter,

I'm also seeing from your photo that the hammershanks are resting (or VERY close to it) on the hammer "rest" rail, and that the jacks are not at 90° to the knuckles. This would be a serious issue that needs attention. 

And I too have bolstered many a whip cushion to restore the profile and cushion. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 14:52
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height

That's a much better explanation of the "magic line" thing I was babbling about.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 13:55
From: Roger Gable
Subject: Samick NSG-186 regulation key height