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Snap! Bass bichord.

  • 1.  Snap! Bass bichord.

    Member
    Posted 20 days ago
    Kawai grand. Top bass string, the rightmost string of the bichord A#2, snapped at the tuning pin. 
     
    Three options occur, and I'd like your thoughts.
     
    Option 1. Splice a new length of piano wire, with a tuners knot. (I tried, and embarrassedly failed twice, called the customer to look, and she said Let's order a new string.) (But I still want to know if you think option 1 is the preferred choice.)
     
    Option 2. Order and install one new string from JD Grandt or equiv. (Providing all needed measurements as well as the old string.)
     
    or Option 3. Order and install BOTH A#2 strings, even though the leftmost string is intact. Because consider: the inharmonicity of the leftmost A#2 string is almost certainly not going to precisely match the new string's inharmonicity. There's a high likelihood that this note will always have a beat if the two strings have different origin stories. Or so it seems to me. Maybe... hmm.
     
    Your thoughts?


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    Jason Kanter
    Lynnwood WA
    (425) 830-1561
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  • 2.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Posted 20 days ago
    Hi, Jason,

    Because, as you note in Option 3, there inevitably issues with inharmonicity with mis-matched strings, my default is to replace both and be done with it.

    You didn’t mention the age or condition of the piano generally, is it time to restring the instrument altogether?

    Kind regards.

    Horace




  • 3.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago
    I'll either splice or replace both strings. Admittedly I've never _tried_ doing just one, but I have followed up on pianos where this has been done -- and sure enough the unison inharmonicity didn't match.






  • 4.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Member
    Posted 19 days ago

    Also, the cost for a single string order is within a couple of dollars of two strings; shipping costs are the same (at least with Mapes).

     

    John Ginter

    Plum Piano Restoration, Inc.

    e-mail: john@plumpiano.com

     






  • 5.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago

    I prefer option 3 first, but if that's not possible due to the budget, I'd go with option 2. I've seen quite a few single string replacements on a bass bichord unison, and most have no problem with an odd sound or untunable beat as long as the measurements were taken correctly and the string was actually made to those measurements. Where you generally run into problems is where the new string wasn't duplicated properly, thus option 3 being my first choice. After all, what comes may not actually match the original but if both the strings in the bichord are the same, no one will notice as long as the difference isn't too much.

    I've never had good success splicing a bass string. I know other technicians who've done this successfully, but about half the time I've tried it, I've been unsuccessful.  The other half of the time, I'm just not happy with the results. I'll do it if I have to, but in my opinion, a new string is almost always the better option. 



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    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    www.FromZeroToSixFiguresBook.com
    www.PianoCraftTechnicalSchool.com
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  • 6.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago

    Jason,

    I ALWAYS try splicing first, as 95% of the time it works, is quick, and retains the original properties of the unison.  However, if the splice fails upon pulling to pitch, my concern is: which part failed...the old, or the new?  I was advised long ago to use a half gauge larger wire in the new material (precisely why I don't know, but seems to work almost all the time). If the break point appears to be in the old wire, my MO changes to replacement, at which point I generally lobby for option 3 (unless the whole thing is just a PSO and nobody really cares except to keep it running). 

    You say you tried twice and failed. This too has happened to me and one starts running out of space and wire to try again. If splicing is not your forte, sometimes poor technique can bring this about. If though, you're good and you know it, it is likely absolute time for replacement, with a warning to the client that this may be an indicator of what is to come. (30-40 years of age is the tipping point for this).

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 7.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago
    This is also pertinent to the Best Reason to attend convention thread. I had a bass string break (a double) on a S&S 'L' recently. I opted to splice the broken string. Not only is it cheaper, but the tuning stabilized much faster.
    Well, I had almost got the string up to pitch when BANG!, it broke. So I ordered TWO strings so that I would have them made at the same time by the same person. It will take the strings longer to stabilize but that's life.

    Now for the Best Reason part: at the Cincinnati convention (1979?), Doug Strong (the head tech at IU in Bloomington) posted a notice on the PTG bulletin board that he would show people how to splice a string. So we met in the lobby and he did. It is a good skill to develop. If you have never done it before, it is worthwhile to practice it. I remember doing just that on a piano in the shop where I worked. The piano was due to be restrung. I raised the pitch almost an octave before it broke!
    Like Del Fandrich, health problems have limited my attendance at conventions the past 6 years but I encourage everyone to go if you can. There have been many excellent posts on the subject and the variety of classes has increased over the years. 

    Bob Anderson
    Tucson, AZ 





  • 8.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago
    Jason
    If this piano is under warranty, contact Kawai. This was a known problem, especially with the small pianos, GL 10. I would recommend replacing both strings, especially if they come from someone other than Kawai.
    Stewart Freedman
    Sent from my iPad




  • 9.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Member
    Posted 16 days ago

    Option 3  . Tying a knot is a great repair to make in an emergency but I would order two replacement strings. The cost of shipping needs to be factored in as well as trying to get a new string to stabilize to one that has been there  .  I had a Steinway grand with a thick single bass string that broke and I tied it However that string broke again. It was hard to do because of the core string thickness. I went home and found a spare that I had and returned to install it. Several years later it works perfectly ..... 



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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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  • 10.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Member
    Posted 8 days ago
    Now I have two bass strings to install tomorrow. JDGrandt's instructions are to put one full twist in the direction of the winding, fine. Here's my question. How sharp do I tune this new pair of strings? Customer knows they will stretch and migrate flatward, so ... 5 cents sharp? 2¢? 10¢? Or decide at the moment?


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    jason's cell 425 830 1561






  • 11.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago

    2 or 5 cents is almost nothing as the string(s) will likely drop a whole step within a week. 
    Depending upon how much the client plays and your relationship with them, one strategy might be to install the missing string and mute it off, then after giving it some time to stabilize, replacing the other string and muting that off. Otherwise they're going to have to put up with a wildly out of tune note for some time.Either way I find it takes two or three touch ups at best to get the string close to where you want it. That's my experience anyway. I'm interested in hearing how much others overpull a new bass string.



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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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  • 12.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago

    Jason,

    MUCH of the "stretch" in a bass string is tied up (forgive the pun) in the helical coil at the hitch pin.

    James Arledge came up with a great way to deal with this and accelerate the settling in process.  This involves pulling it sharp at least 50 cents, then using pliers to grasp the helical coil just behind the "tight" coil (the last finishing off coil). And wiggling the coil back and forth (with moderate force). You can actually watch the barrel coil turn as the helix tightens up. The tension will drop at least 100 cents in this first application.  Pull it up 50 cents sharp again (or whatever you're comfortable with) and repeat the procedure. It will likely drop back below pitch again. All you're doing is tightening the helix, which if left to itself, will take days and weeks and months to tighten up on it's own. This is what we refer to as "stretch". If you do this you will get 80% of it done and can leave it 5 cents sharp and come back in 2-3 weeks and retune it 2 cents sharp. 

    This protocol works extremely well. I am grateful to James for figuring it out and sharing it. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 13.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago

    I've never felt comfortable pulling a new bass string up +50¢. My usual protocol is to start my visit by installing the string as normal, pulling it about +20¢, and then trying to artificially stretch the string using the method Peter describes. Then, if I have to tune the piano, I'll tune it and do whatever else to complete the appointment. By the time I'm done with that, the new string(s) will be at least -30¢. I'll then pull them up to about +20¢, try to artificially stretch them again, and then finish by pulling them up to about +20¢ one more time. Then I'll come back in a few weeks and try to repeat the process, but this time only pulling them about +5¢. This method is slower but it's less stressful on my nerves than trying to pull it +50¢. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    www.FromZeroToSixFiguresBook.com
    www.PianoCraftTechnicalSchool.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago

    Benjamin, 

    I too "prefer" the less stressful protocol as you. IIRC James actually recommended 100 cents, but I could not bring myself to do that. 50 was about my max (if even that). But of course the point of it is "treat the problem, not the symptom"...the problem being the tightening of the helical coil, primarily. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 15.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Posted 8 days ago

    Hi all, 

    Not sure how important this is to the situation, but i believe the Arledge method of going 100 cents was the method he suggested for only 'his' strings.  Arledge designed his own machine for making bass strings which formed the string under full tension (why you didn't have to add any twists to them like traditional methods). As far as I know, all other bass string manufacturers apply the copper winding While under very low tension comparably.

    While I'm not certain; I believe it may not be wise to go 100 cents for traditional made bass strings.  We used his method of 100 cents on the Arledge strings when they were still in production in Nashville, but we have not tried that method with out other string makers, since none of them have ever described any method like that (as far as we know).

    Hard to double check since it appears all his technical information and teaching of his strings has since been taken down from his website at pianostrings.com



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    Matthew Walworth
    A.M.O. Pianos
    Lebanon, TN 37087
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  • 16.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago
    Thanks for sharing Peter. I look forward to trying this on my next bass string.

    I will also use a screwdriver and a hammer (usually my tuning hammer) to tap the “barrel” towards the hitchpin to help tighten the helix. The pitch drop from this is also significant.

    Joe Wiencek




  • 17.  RE: Snap! Bass bichord.

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 8 days ago

    Matthew,

    I do believe you correct on that assessment about Arledge. Even with his strings I could not bring myself to pull them that high, though the rest of the procedure works for all others. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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