CAUT

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Clark,

I would recommend using a down bearing gauge to "map out" the forward and rear down bearing angles before you remove the strings. This will give you an indication of whether the problem is due to excessive or inadequate down bearing. Remove the bridge pins and sand down the cap in a manner that will correct any errors. Re-notch if necessary. If your rear is negative more than the front is positive you will need to sand down the aliquots. Ideally, you want a positive down bearing on both sides, although a negative in the rear is okay, up to a certain point. It's important that the speaking side is positive to at least 2 degrees. Also, you want to sand down enough material to "erase" the accumulated string groves – a primary cause of false beats. I would recommend replacing the bridge pins with new exact size pins and CA them into the bridge. Finally, be sure to reshape the capo bar – another source of false beats.

Twenty-three years ago, I restrung a "D" at our community hall using this process and to this day the there are no false beats – including note #88.

Roger Gable

P.S. I noted you wanted to only restring the top 2 octaves. If you can't lift the plate to remove the bridge pins and sand down the cap, you may be up against an impossibility.

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Thank you, Roger.   I'm going to lower tension, but not remove the plate.  So, not sure how I'll approach but I hope to get rid of most if the false beats.  Thanks again!   Clark

Clark,

I would recommend using a down bearing gauge to "map out" the forward and rear down bearing angles before you remove the strings. This will give you an indication of whether the problem is due to excessive or inadequate down bearing. Remove the bridge pins and sand down the cap in a manner that will correct any errors. Re-notch if necessary. If your rear is negative more than the front is positive you will need to sand down the aliquots. Ideally, you want a positive down bearing on both sides, although a negative in the rear is okay, up to a certain point. It's important that the speaking side is positive to at least 2 degrees. Also, you want to sand down enough material to "erase" the accumulated string groves – a primary cause of false beats. I would recommend replacing the bridge pins with new exact size pins and CA them into the bridge. Finally, be sure to reshape the capo bar – another source of false beats.

Twenty-three years ago, I restrung a "D" at our community hall using this process and to this day the there are no false beats – including note #88.

Roger Gable

P.S. I noted you wanted to only restring the top 2 octaves. If you can't lift the plate to remove the bridge pins and sand down the cap, you may be up against an impossibility.

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Thank you, Roger.   I'm going to lower tension, but not remove the plate.  So, not sure how I'll approach but I hope to get rid of most if the false beats.  Thanks again!   Clark

Clark,

I would recommend using a down bearing gauge to "map out" the forward and rear down bearing angles before you remove the strings. This will give you an indication of whether the problem is due to excessive or inadequate down bearing. Remove the bridge pins and sand down the cap in a manner that will correct any errors. Re-notch if necessary. If your rear is negative more than the front is positive you will need to sand down the aliquots. Ideally, you want a positive down bearing on both sides, although a negative in the rear is okay, up to a certain point. It's important that the speaking side is positive to at least 2 degrees. Also, you want to sand down enough material to "erase" the accumulated string groves – a primary cause of false beats. I would recommend replacing the bridge pins with new exact size pins and CA them into the bridge. Finally, be sure to reshape the capo bar – another source of false beats.

Twenty-three years ago, I restrung a "D" at our community hall using this process and to this day the there are no false beats – including note #88.

Roger Gable

P.S. I noted you wanted to only restring the top 2 octaves. If you can't lift the plate to remove the bridge pins and sand down the cap, you may be up against an impossibility.

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Fred

Totally understand the confusion.  

In this case there was a gap between the shoulder of the nose bolt and the under side of the plate and as mentioned above was about 1/4" or more.  The previous person setting up the plate had left the gap and then only tightened down the nut we see on the top to accommodate any provision for down bearing and leaving the gap.  So raising it more that the 1/4" would have raised the plate and reduced the DB as you suggest.   I hope that we all understand that the plate is to be trapped securely between that shoulder and the top nut which keeps the plate from rising or changing position.  

In this case raising the nose bolt to meet the plate or a few thousandths of an inch below the resting point of the plate, in other words just a bit of tension or preload on the plate toward the floor to accommodate any rise in the plate is now accounted for.  I can't imagine the consequences of simply tightening the top nut and moving the plate down the 1/4" to the shoulder of the nose bolt in its previous position.  So raising it and measuring with a dial gauge got us to the right spot.  I used a figure of .003-.005" as a healthy number.  I know there are others who exceed that and some by a great deal.  

Again, I feel strongly that we need to account for these things and not assume that someone else did the job right or conditions could have changed since the piano was last assembled.  

BTW the piano, even after only a half dozen or so "real" tunings is wonderfully stable where it was not before.  

I have run into the nose bolt scenario described above in a number of other pianos which were notably unstable, particularly in treble one.  Fixed the plate seating and all is well.  It's an easy observation with a flashlight and mirror or perhaps a borescope.  I found one on line which attaches to my cell phone so I can take pictures as well.  Too bad I didn't think of it in this instance.  Device can be found in the Micro-Mark catalogue for under $50.  It's a great addition to the shop.  

Mike

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

As Fred said, coat the bridge pins with some sort of mold release. Otherwise, the pins will never come out. Any attempt to remove them will ruin the bridge and any tool employed to do so. Then you will have to manufacture a new bridge next time the board has to be replaced. And in the short term, you will no longer have the ability to affect any repairs to the bridge or to recap on the existing belly. 

You indicated intent to restring the top two sections then later just to drop the tension. If the strings were overpulled as you suspect, reusing them will not fully resolve the problem. You'll need to put new wire on. Use plugs or Lo-tork pins if the holes are too large for anything over a 4/0. 

Michael, I am not familiar with the XM wire. Could you please elaborate with a source to purchase?

Dave

Fred

Totally understand the confusion.  

In this case there was a gap between the shoulder of the nose bolt and the under side of the plate and as mentioned above was about 1/4" or more.  The previous person setting up the plate had left the gap and then only tightened down the nut we see on the top to accommodate any provision for down bearing and leaving the gap.  So raising it more that the 1/4" would have raised the plate and reduced the DB as you suggest.   I hope that we all understand that the plate is to be trapped securely between that shoulder and the top nut which keeps the plate from rising or changing position.  

In this case raising the nose bolt to meet the plate or a few thousandths of an inch below the resting point of the plate, in other words just a bit of tension or preload on the plate toward the floor to accommodate any rise in the plate is now accounted for.  I can't imagine the consequences of simply tightening the top nut and moving the plate down the 1/4" to the shoulder of the nose bolt in its previous position.  So raising it and measuring with a dial gauge got us to the right spot.  I used a figure of .003-.005" as a healthy number.  I know there are others who exceed that and some by a great deal.  

Again, I feel strongly that we need to account for these things and not assume that someone else did the job right or conditions could have changed since the piano was last assembled.  

BTW the piano, even after only a half dozen or so "real" tunings is wonderfully stable where it was not before.  

I have run into the nose bolt scenario described above in a number of other pianos which were notably unstable, particularly in treble one.  Fixed the plate seating and all is well.  It's an easy observation with a flashlight and mirror or perhaps a borescope.  I found one on line which attaches to my cell phone so I can take pictures as well.  Too bad I didn't think of it in this instance.  Device can be found in the Micro-Mark catalogue for under $50.  It's a great addition to the shop.  

Mike

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

As Fred said, coat the bridge pins with some sort of mold release. Otherwise, the pins will never come out. Any attempt to remove them will ruin the bridge and any tool employed to do so. Then you will have to manufacture a new bridge next time the board has to be replaced. And in the short term, you will no longer have the ability to affect any repairs to the bridge or to recap on the existing belly. 

You indicated intent to restring the top two sections then later just to drop the tension. If the strings were overpulled as you suspect, reusing them will not fully resolve the problem. You'll need to put new wire on. Use plugs or Lo-tork pins if the holes are too large for anything over a 4/0. 

Michael, I am not familiar with the XM wire. Could you please elaborate with a source to purchase?

Dave

Fred

Totally understand the confusion.  

In this case there was a gap between the shoulder of the nose bolt and the under side of the plate and as mentioned above was about 1/4" or more.  The previous person setting up the plate had left the gap and then only tightened down the nut we see on the top to accommodate any provision for down bearing and leaving the gap.  So raising it more that the 1/4" would have raised the plate and reduced the DB as you suggest.   I hope that we all understand that the plate is to be trapped securely between that shoulder and the top nut which keeps the plate from rising or changing position.  

In this case raising the nose bolt to meet the plate or a few thousandths of an inch below the resting point of the plate, in other words just a bit of tension or preload on the plate toward the floor to accommodate any rise in the plate is now accounted for.  I can't imagine the consequences of simply tightening the top nut and moving the plate down the 1/4" to the shoulder of the nose bolt in its previous position.  So raising it and measuring with a dial gauge got us to the right spot.  I used a figure of .003-.005" as a healthy number.  I know there are others who exceed that and some by a great deal.  

Again, I feel strongly that we need to account for these things and not assume that someone else did the job right or conditions could have changed since the piano was last assembled.  

BTW the piano, even after only a half dozen or so "real" tunings is wonderfully stable where it was not before.  

I have run into the nose bolt scenario described above in a number of other pianos which were notably unstable, particularly in treble one.  Fixed the plate seating and all is well.  It's an easy observation with a flashlight and mirror or perhaps a borescope.  I found one on line which attaches to my cell phone so I can take pictures as well.  Too bad I didn't think of it in this instance.  Device can be found in the Micro-Mark catalogue for under $50.  It's a great addition to the shop.  

Mike

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

As Fred said, coat the bridge pins with some sort of mold release. Otherwise, the pins will never come out. Any attempt to remove them will ruin the bridge and any tool employed to do so. Then you will have to manufacture a new bridge next time the board has to be replaced. And in the short term, you will no longer have the ability to affect any repairs to the bridge or to recap on the existing belly. 

You indicated intent to restring the top two sections then later just to drop the tension. If the strings were overpulled as you suspect, reusing them will not fully resolve the problem. You'll need to put new wire on. Use plugs or Lo-tork pins if the holes are too large for anything over a 4/0. 

Michael, I am not familiar with the XM wire. Could you please elaborate with a source to purchase?

Dave

Fred

Totally understand the confusion.  

In this case there was a gap between the shoulder of the nose bolt and the under side of the plate and as mentioned above was about 1/4" or more.  The previous person setting up the plate had left the gap and then only tightened down the nut we see on the top to accommodate any provision for down bearing and leaving the gap.  So raising it more that the 1/4" would have raised the plate and reduced the DB as you suggest.   I hope that we all understand that the plate is to be trapped securely between that shoulder and the top nut which keeps the plate from rising or changing position.  

In this case raising the nose bolt to meet the plate or a few thousandths of an inch below the resting point of the plate, in other words just a bit of tension or preload on the plate toward the floor to accommodate any rise in the plate is now accounted for.  I can't imagine the consequences of simply tightening the top nut and moving the plate down the 1/4" to the shoulder of the nose bolt in its previous position.  So raising it and measuring with a dial gauge got us to the right spot.  I used a figure of .003-.005" as a healthy number.  I know there are others who exceed that and some by a great deal.  

Again, I feel strongly that we need to account for these things and not assume that someone else did the job right or conditions could have changed since the piano was last assembled.  

BTW the piano, even after only a half dozen or so "real" tunings is wonderfully stable where it was not before.  

I have run into the nose bolt scenario described above in a number of other pianos which were notably unstable, particularly in treble one.  Fixed the plate seating and all is well.  It's an easy observation with a flashlight and mirror or perhaps a borescope.  I found one on line which attaches to my cell phone so I can take pictures as well.  Too bad I didn't think of it in this instance.  Device can be found in the Micro-Mark catalogue for under $50.  It's a great addition to the shop.  

Mike

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

I assume he means Paulello XM. I've gotten Paulello wire from J.D. Grandt a couple times...

As Fred said, coat the bridge pins with some sort of mold release. Otherwise, the pins will never come out. Any attempt to remove them will ruin the bridge and any tool employed to do so. Then you will have to manufacture a new bridge next time the board has to be replaced. And in the short term, you will no longer have the ability to affect any repairs to the bridge or to recap on the existing belly. 

You indicated intent to restring the top two sections then later just to drop the tension. If the strings were overpulled as you suspect, reusing them will not fully resolve the problem. You'll need to put new wire on. Use plugs or Lo-tork pins if the holes are too large for anything over a 4/0. 

Michael, I am not familiar with the XM wire. Could you please elaborate with a source to purchase?

Dave

Fred

Totally understand the confusion.  

In this case there was a gap between the shoulder of the nose bolt and the under side of the plate and as mentioned above was about 1/4" or more.  The previous person setting up the plate had left the gap and then only tightened down the nut we see on the top to accommodate any provision for down bearing and leaving the gap.  So raising it more that the 1/4" would have raised the plate and reduced the DB as you suggest.   I hope that we all understand that the plate is to be trapped securely between that shoulder and the top nut which keeps the plate from rising or changing position.  

In this case raising the nose bolt to meet the plate or a few thousandths of an inch below the resting point of the plate, in other words just a bit of tension or preload on the plate toward the floor to accommodate any rise in the plate is now accounted for.  I can't imagine the consequences of simply tightening the top nut and moving the plate down the 1/4" to the shoulder of the nose bolt in its previous position.  So raising it and measuring with a dial gauge got us to the right spot.  I used a figure of .003-.005" as a healthy number.  I know there are others who exceed that and some by a great deal.  

Again, I feel strongly that we need to account for these things and not assume that someone else did the job right or conditions could have changed since the piano was last assembled.  

BTW the piano, even after only a half dozen or so "real" tunings is wonderfully stable where it was not before.  

I have run into the nose bolt scenario described above in a number of other pianos which were notably unstable, particularly in treble one.  Fixed the plate seating and all is well.  It's an easy observation with a flashlight and mirror or perhaps a borescope.  I found one on line which attaches to my cell phone so I can take pictures as well.  Too bad I didn't think of it in this instance.  Device can be found in the Micro-Mark catalogue for under $50.  It's a great addition to the shop.  

Mike

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Dave

Here is the scoop on the Paullelo wire:

https://www.stephenpaulello.com/sites/default/files/paulello/intros-de-pages/stephenpaulellomusicwire.pdf

We have also used the style 0 and 1 on my romantic era piano, J B Streicher ca 1848.  The piano is 8' 2"  and we have finally found the right combo of strings to enhance the tone and tuning stability we were seeking.  Didn't work at all with modern wire which was on it when I received the piano.  We tried PureSound and liked the sound very, very much but well, let's just say it didn't work out.  It is now quite stable with good tone and duration, doesn't break strings and is pitched at A=430.  It's also been used for its first recording and several performances.  Oregon Bach Festival will use it this summer as well.  

With the 0 and 1 wire we have also been able to do a hybrid scale on a couple of our Steinway Bs.  Using it in the low tenor mitigates the awkward bass/tenor break so prevalent in these instrument.  The latest one, from 1978, completely solved the issue and concealed the break at notes #20-#21 and moved it up to c-b #27-28.

Mike

I assume he means Paulello XM. I've gotten Paulello wire from J.D. Grandt a couple times...

As Fred said, coat the bridge pins with some sort of mold release. Otherwise, the pins will never come out. Any attempt to remove them will ruin the bridge and any tool employed to do so. Then you will have to manufacture a new bridge next time the board has to be replaced. And in the short term, you will no longer have the ability to affect any repairs to the bridge or to recap on the existing belly. 

You indicated intent to restring the top two sections then later just to drop the tension. If the strings were overpulled as you suspect, reusing them will not fully resolve the problem. You'll need to put new wire on. Use plugs or Lo-tork pins if the holes are too large for anything over a 4/0. 

Michael, I am not familiar with the XM wire. Could you please elaborate with a source to purchase?

Dave

Fred

Totally understand the confusion.  

In this case there was a gap between the shoulder of the nose bolt and the under side of the plate and as mentioned above was about 1/4" or more.  The previous person setting up the plate had left the gap and then only tightened down the nut we see on the top to accommodate any provision for down bearing and leaving the gap.  So raising it more that the 1/4" would have raised the plate and reduced the DB as you suggest.   I hope that we all understand that the plate is to be trapped securely between that shoulder and the top nut which keeps the plate from rising or changing position.  

In this case raising the nose bolt to meet the plate or a few thousandths of an inch below the resting point of the plate, in other words just a bit of tension or preload on the plate toward the floor to accommodate any rise in the plate is now accounted for.  I can't imagine the consequences of simply tightening the top nut and moving the plate down the 1/4" to the shoulder of the nose bolt in its previous position.  So raising it and measuring with a dial gauge got us to the right spot.  I used a figure of .003-.005" as a healthy number.  I know there are others who exceed that and some by a great deal.  

Again, I feel strongly that we need to account for these things and not assume that someone else did the job right or conditions could have changed since the piano was last assembled.  

BTW the piano, even after only a half dozen or so "real" tunings is wonderfully stable where it was not before.  

I have run into the nose bolt scenario described above in a number of other pianos which were notably unstable, particularly in treble one.  Fixed the plate seating and all is well.  It's an easy observation with a flashlight and mirror or perhaps a borescope.  I found one on line which attaches to my cell phone so I can take pictures as well.  Too bad I didn't think of it in this instance.  Device can be found in the Micro-Mark catalogue for under $50.  It's a great addition to the shop.  

Mike

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Hi Fred,

I would be most interested in knowing the details for your protocol for inserting new pins with CA.  The McLube idea is very helpful.  I had a treble bridge in a Young Chang U-121 that had multiple fractures, and did a repair with thin CA.  I built a dam around the perimeter with masking tape, pulled the bridge pins and coated them with McLube, reinserted them, then filled up the fissures with CA, using CA accelerator as the level of the resin began approaching the top surface of the bridge.  Once everything was solid, I pulled the original bridge pins, and was surprised at how easily they came out.

I have used the epoxy protocol on almost every bridge I have repinned.  Your comment about leaving a better prospect for your successor hits home.  I did a search here in the forums with the terms "bridge +pins +epoxy +soldering" and received some comfort that future bridge work is possible on these instruments, but the Bösendorfer 200 that is awaiting refurbishing here is going to see CA and McLube when I tackle it.

What you have set forth thus far seems like it might well be considered as foundational information for a Journal article.

Dave

Here is the scoop on the Paullelo wire:

https://www.stephenpaulello.com/sites/default/files/paulello/intros-de-pages/stephenpaulellomusicwire.pdf

We have also used the style 0 and 1 on my romantic era piano, J B Streicher ca 1848.  The piano is 8' 2"  and we have finally found the right combo of strings to enhance the tone and tuning stability we were seeking.  Didn't work at all with modern wire which was on it when I received the piano.  We tried PureSound and liked the sound very, very much but well, let's just say it didn't work out.  It is now quite stable with good tone and duration, doesn't break strings and is pitched at A=430.  It's also been used for its first recording and several performances.  Oregon Bach Festival will use it this summer as well.  

With the 0 and 1 wire we have also been able to do a hybrid scale on a couple of our Steinway Bs.  Using it in the low tenor mitigates the awkward bass/tenor break so prevalent in these instrument.  The latest one, from 1978, completely solved the issue and concealed the break at notes #20-#21 and moved it up to c-b #27-28.

Mike

I assume he means Paulello XM. I've gotten Paulello wire from J.D. Grandt a couple times...

As Fred said, coat the bridge pins with some sort of mold release. Otherwise, the pins will never come out. Any attempt to remove them will ruin the bridge and any tool employed to do so. Then you will have to manufacture a new bridge next time the board has to be replaced. And in the short term, you will no longer have the ability to affect any repairs to the bridge or to recap on the existing belly. 

You indicated intent to restring the top two sections then later just to drop the tension. If the strings were overpulled as you suspect, reusing them will not fully resolve the problem. You'll need to put new wire on. Use plugs or Lo-tork pins if the holes are too large for anything over a 4/0. 

Michael, I am not familiar with the XM wire. Could you please elaborate with a source to purchase?

Dave

Fred

Totally understand the confusion.  

In this case there was a gap between the shoulder of the nose bolt and the under side of the plate and as mentioned above was about 1/4" or more.  The previous person setting up the plate had left the gap and then only tightened down the nut we see on the top to accommodate any provision for down bearing and leaving the gap.  So raising it more that the 1/4" would have raised the plate and reduced the DB as you suggest.   I hope that we all understand that the plate is to be trapped securely between that shoulder and the top nut which keeps the plate from rising or changing position.  

In this case raising the nose bolt to meet the plate or a few thousandths of an inch below the resting point of the plate, in other words just a bit of tension or preload on the plate toward the floor to accommodate any rise in the plate is now accounted for.  I can't imagine the consequences of simply tightening the top nut and moving the plate down the 1/4" to the shoulder of the nose bolt in its previous position.  So raising it and measuring with a dial gauge got us to the right spot.  I used a figure of .003-.005" as a healthy number.  I know there are others who exceed that and some by a great deal.  

Again, I feel strongly that we need to account for these things and not assume that someone else did the job right or conditions could have changed since the piano was last assembled.  

BTW the piano, even after only a half dozen or so "real" tunings is wonderfully stable where it was not before.  

I have run into the nose bolt scenario described above in a number of other pianos which were notably unstable, particularly in treble one.  Fixed the plate seating and all is well.  It's an easy observation with a flashlight and mirror or perhaps a borescope.  I found one on line which attaches to my cell phone so I can take pictures as well.  Too bad I didn't think of it in this instance.  Device can be found in the Micro-Mark catalogue for under $50.  It's a great addition to the shop.  

Mike

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT

Ok, so I started the project today.  The first thing I noted was that the capo was not that grooved.  Maybe leave well enough alone on that front?

  The next thing I noted was that I decided to replace the Strings from A4 up.  I removed the tension from the whole instrument, then just removed the strings starting on A4.  I pulled the bridge pin on A4 and measured at .0086.  Then I pulled the last bridge pin, and it measured .0086 also.

  Is it correct protocol  to have all of those bridge pins the same size?

Hi Fred,

I would be most interested in knowing the details for your protocol for inserting new pins with CA.  The McLube idea is very helpful.  I had a treble bridge in a Young Chang U-121 that had multiple fractures, and did a repair with thin CA.  I built a dam around the perimeter with masking tape, pulled the bridge pins and coated them with McLube, reinserted them, then filled up the fissures with CA, using CA accelerator as the level of the resin began approaching the top surface of the bridge.  Once everything was solid, I pulled the original bridge pins, and was surprised at how easily they came out.

I have used the epoxy protocol on almost every bridge I have repinned.  Your comment about leaving a better prospect for your successor hits home.  I did a search here in the forums with the terms "bridge +pins +epoxy +soldering" and received some comfort that future bridge work is possible on these instruments, but the Bösendorfer 200 that is awaiting refurbishing here is going to see CA and McLube when I tackle it.

What you have set forth thus far seems like it might well be considered as foundational information for a Journal article.

Dave

Here is the scoop on the Paullelo wire:

https://www.stephenpaulello.com/sites/default/files/paulello/intros-de-pages/stephenpaulellomusicwire.pdf

We have also used the style 0 and 1 on my romantic era piano, J B Streicher ca 1848.  The piano is 8' 2"  and we have finally found the right combo of strings to enhance the tone and tuning stability we were seeking.  Didn't work at all with modern wire which was on it when I received the piano.  We tried PureSound and liked the sound very, very much but well, let's just say it didn't work out.  It is now quite stable with good tone and duration, doesn't break strings and is pitched at A=430.  It's also been used for its first recording and several performances.  Oregon Bach Festival will use it this summer as well.  

With the 0 and 1 wire we have also been able to do a hybrid scale on a couple of our Steinway Bs.  Using it in the low tenor mitigates the awkward bass/tenor break so prevalent in these instrument.  The latest one, from 1978, completely solved the issue and concealed the break at notes #20-#21 and moved it up to c-b #27-28.

Mike

I assume he means Paulello XM. I've gotten Paulello wire from J.D. Grandt a couple times...

As Fred said, coat the bridge pins with some sort of mold release. Otherwise, the pins will never come out. Any attempt to remove them will ruin the bridge and any tool employed to do so. Then you will have to manufacture a new bridge next time the board has to be replaced. And in the short term, you will no longer have the ability to affect any repairs to the bridge or to recap on the existing belly. 

You indicated intent to restring the top two sections then later just to drop the tension. If the strings were overpulled as you suspect, reusing them will not fully resolve the problem. You'll need to put new wire on. Use plugs or Lo-tork pins if the holes are too large for anything over a 4/0. 

Michael, I am not familiar with the XM wire. Could you please elaborate with a source to purchase?

Dave

Fred

Totally understand the confusion.  

In this case there was a gap between the shoulder of the nose bolt and the under side of the plate and as mentioned above was about 1/4" or more.  The previous person setting up the plate had left the gap and then only tightened down the nut we see on the top to accommodate any provision for down bearing and leaving the gap.  So raising it more that the 1/4" would have raised the plate and reduced the DB as you suggest.   I hope that we all understand that the plate is to be trapped securely between that shoulder and the top nut which keeps the plate from rising or changing position.  

In this case raising the nose bolt to meet the plate or a few thousandths of an inch below the resting point of the plate, in other words just a bit of tension or preload on the plate toward the floor to accommodate any rise in the plate is now accounted for.  I can't imagine the consequences of simply tightening the top nut and moving the plate down the 1/4" to the shoulder of the nose bolt in its previous position.  So raising it and measuring with a dial gauge got us to the right spot.  I used a figure of .003-.005" as a healthy number.  I know there are others who exceed that and some by a great deal.  

Again, I feel strongly that we need to account for these things and not assume that someone else did the job right or conditions could have changed since the piano was last assembled.  

BTW the piano, even after only a half dozen or so "real" tunings is wonderfully stable where it was not before.  

I have run into the nose bolt scenario described above in a number of other pianos which were notably unstable, particularly in treble one.  Fixed the plate seating and all is well.  It's an easy observation with a flashlight and mirror or perhaps a borescope.  I found one on line which attaches to my cell phone so I can take pictures as well.  Too bad I didn't think of it in this instance.  Device can be found in the Micro-Mark catalogue for under $50.  It's a great addition to the shop.  

Mike

Clark et al:

Having just done this exercise I have a few additional comments.

Steinway D

The piano is located in the Jazz Studio here at U Oregon and gets constant use.  Any string from F5 up was not tunable without some electronic aid.  The pitch was not discernible by ear and even the ETD had some trouble.  There were a number of reasons to replace strings which included many broken/replaced strings, odd rendering in the capo section, most of the tenor range and generally not a good sounding instrument.  Stability in the room is suspect as well mostly due to climate issues.  We tried all the usual methods and the superglue helped a bunch but was not the answer we were seeking.  Soooo, off come the strings.  After they were removed we discovered that the notching was in no way acceptable.  There was little room to surface the bridge as the down bearing was minimal but with a deft hand could be done.  Here is the biggie--the plate was not properly seated on the nose bolts, the bolt for the bell was loose as well.  We lifted the plate enough to work under it and be able to get all the bridge pins out to do the work.  We don't have quite enough room to have the plate out of a large piano and be able to work around it.  Work was accomplished, the plate reseated with special attention to the nose bolts and new strings added.  Also, replaced the agraffes.  In addition we used Paullelo wire throughout with JD Grandt bass strings (Thanks for the great work John!!).  Also, because this piano gets hard use we used the XM wire in the "breaky section"--C5 to F7.  It has worked out great and one of the big differences has been how well the Paullelo wire settles out.  Much faster than others.  

Steinway B

Same job as above with the same materials.  This one was a string breaker as well in the same area and same combination of strings used.  We did not reshape the bridge but did reset the bridge pins using CA.  There was little denting of the bridge cap since no one before me abused the bridge by aggressive tapping down of the strings.  Dressed capo bar as we did on the D.  The biggie again was the setting of the plate.  All of the nose bolts were too low by as much as 1/4" (!!!) and the top nut tightened enough to be secure.  Again the bolt for the treble bell was loose.  Simply resetting the nose bolts achieved just enough bearing behind the bridge to give us positive bearing on both sides.  False beat problem solved.  Yes, there are a couple but overall an acceptable result.  

Some additional info.

We have had several pianos in practice rooms that were habitual string breakers, sometimes one per week.  As above we simply changed to the XM wire in the breaky section, problem solved.  In addition there was little if any change to the tuning and tone considerations with the new wire and thus invisible to the listener and the ETD as well.  Experiment was entirely successful.  It's about 3 hours to do the conversion vs. hours and hours of single replacements weekly.

Good luck with your project Clark.

Mike Reiter 

Hi, all.  I am about to restring the top octaves above the treble break of one of my university concert halls.  It was restrung a few years ago by someone else, and the top is full of false beats that you can't tune out ( at least I cant).  I am looking for a recommendation on a capo file from Stew Mac or someone(having never done a reshaping of a capo before).

  My thought is that it was pulled 100 cents high, so as to not have to tune it so many times, and in doing this, false beats were introduced throughout  the top 2 octaves.  I am not sure, but want to make this as good as I can by CA treating the bridge pins, reshaping the capo, and restringing.

   Thoughts??   Thank you.    

Clark A Sprague, RPT