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Steinway "40" basement scale

  • 1.  Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2024 07:29

    Has anyone here made the effort to rescale the Steinway "40"? I have one here that the owner is interested in seriously improving. A significant problem seems to be at the top of the bass, with a serious drop in volume crossing from the tenor into the bass. It gradually picks up as you descend though. 

    Is this in fact a scaling issue, and has anyone else fixed it successfully? Mechanically everything else seems fine (just old), much of which is likely to be upgraded. The serial is 305xxx.  I don't want to recommend restringing unless this problem can be successfully addressed.   Normally I wouldn't even bother but there is a degree of emotional attachment involved. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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  • 2.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Member
    Posted 02-17-2024 08:30

    Have you checked the bridge to soundboard glue joint in that area ? quick test by pushing down on the bridge with a screwdriver and playing the notes. String seating at the bridge pins and hitch pin as well as overall condition of the wound string. Do they improve by twisting ?



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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2024 10:15

    James,

    I have only made a cursory examination of the bridge/board joint but it does in fact LOOK quite good. I'll check that further of course.  Twisting both strings of the top bichord (already still had at least 1/2 turn in them and I added 1/2 more) "improved" the tone slightly (subjective), the sustain moderately (also somewhat subjective), but volume did not improve in the slightest. 

    I filed and mated the hammers top bass and bottom tenor resulting in essentially a similar tonal improvement in both, but still the volume difference is very dramatic. I tried a little extra mass loading on the bass bridge to no effect. I plan to try a riblet but have yet to do so. 

    I was hoping that someone else might have had a similar situation, analyzed the scale already, found an obvious flaw, and fixed the problem so I could confidently recommend an alteration/upgrade. I've had it happen once before when I determined (simply by sound and gut) that bass strings needed replacement, only to end up with ZERO improvement. Sounded exactly as it had before...bummer. Therefore if it is really just a quirk of this design (no I have not yet checked downbearing), then I see little benefit in suggesting string replacement. But if nobody has already tackled this then I'd have to send the string data to my maker and let him analyze it. Then I'm nearly committed, if you know what I mean.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Member
    Posted 02-17-2024 11:26

    I would check the condition of the hammer felt to determine if the hammers where over needled . A piano here in a church had been overvoiced with no power . Try interchanging a few hammers 



    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2024 12:00

    It seems to me that this has been discussed at some point in the last few years but I can't find it. I have run into to some model 40's with chronic string breakage in this area.



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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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  • 6.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2024 13:16

    That is on the docket, hammers that is.

    BTW  I just noticed that my title got changed to "basement" scale... 😉  don't know how that happened 

    Steve, anything you can dig up would be helpful. Just don't waste a lot of time trying. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2024 14:01

    Peter, I couldn't find anything recent about model 40, there was a conversation about 15 years ago but they were talking about the termination at the top of the piano. 

    You might ask JD Grandt, he keeps really good records and might know of a rescale.



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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2024 14:15

    Steve,

    Good idea.  Thx

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-17-2024 19:03

    When I get back in the shop I'm going to look very closely at the bridge/soundboard joint.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-18-2024 07:03

    Update:

    So the bridge is certainly tight to the board.  Therefore I decided to try alternatives. I added a riblet to the low tenor part of that bridge to try to mitigate some if it's excessive output. It helped to a small degree in volume and at the same time Improved its sustain. Then I retried mass loading of the top of the bass bridge (slightly different tactic) and that proved to be VERY helpful. Got a nice boost there which shows me that there is potential to even this little gremlin out. I suspect a combination of attacks will be the solution. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Member
    Posted 02-18-2024 12:36

    Keep us posted since it is useful to know what you did that worked and didn't work. One guideline I have used is that the whole is the sum of the parts. This was an extremely productive approach when I worked on a very noisy C7 action that had been in high humidity and neglected for years. I still would try some hammer swapping with neighboring hammers that have more volume as well as checking the pinning on the hammers and whips 



    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-20-2024 07:30

    Update:

    James, 

    Yes I did in fact add some weight to the hammershank on the apparent problem child top note of the bass, and as you suggested it provided an additional boost in the overall performance. I agree with the "sum of the parts" point of view. 

    Additionally I sent a note to Gregor Heller on the matter and he assured me that improvement can be made in that scale (not really a big surprise) 😉 . 

    The owner has decided to move ahead and put the piano back in the best possible shape so I have started ripping it all apart in the usual manner. My inclination is to complete the restring before doing much of anything on the action simply to see how much change is due to that vs how much the action puts into it. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2024 00:55

    Peter, Is this a Steinway Console? If so, and you are restringing, I would absolutely measure the speaking lengths and wire diameters. I would be happy to look at the scale at no charge and provide input. I was tutoring aural tuning for someone who was using his Steinway console and we could not hear the F3 - F4 temperament beats for crap. I was amazed at how bad it was. However this could also be from soundboard, or other,  problems. Wurlitzer spinits have a little history of being trashed by technicians but I had one the year I went to NBSS and it certainly helped me learn. For some reason, likely scaling, most Wurli spinits are really easy to hear the beats in the temperament section.



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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
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  • 14.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2024 07:51

    Tremaine,

    Thank you for the offer but I've already sent my order to Gregor Heller. He has assured me that improvement is easily accomplished on this scale. I have the utmost confidence in his ability, and he will use Paulello wire where it is best for optimization. 

    I have now strung the plain wire and did a "seat of the pants" scale alteration simply by changing the wire type in the low tenor to type 0. My experience has been that this alone will improve the response down there. I'm not attempting to create "perfection" on this runt, just a reasonable improvement. Bacon felted Ronsen hammers will round out the mix I'm sure. 😋 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2024 11:19

    Well, I'm sure the bass strings will be great and the Paulello will certainly help. Can you tell me how many bass notes are on that piano? Did you happen to measure an speaking lengths in the middle section. My truest motivation is that I would love to be able to see the scale. Little doubt there will be a big improvement.



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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2024 13:34

    Tremaine, 

    Well, I measured first and last monchords,  top of bass, first and last in tenor. I did not measure core or winding, and strings are in a heap not in order. 😞 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2024 22:49

    Peter, Can I assume that this is a 40" tall Console/Upright and I'm still curious as to how many bass notes are on the piano. Thanx in advance.



    ------------------------------
    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2024 09:27

    Tremaine, 

    Here's the data for SS "40" #309xxx:

    10 monochords = 10

    22 bichords bass = 44

    2 bichords tenor = 4

                                    58 strings total

                  A                 B

    #1      75mm         1098mm 

    #10    101mm       1061mm 

    #54    181mm       987mm 

    #55    123mm       965mm 

    #58    139mm       962.5mm 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-23-2024 14:14

    Thanks Peter,

    At least it has a few bichords on the long bridge.



    ------------------------------
    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Steinway "40" basement scale

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10 days ago

    Just so ya'll know, this project is complete and the tubby tonal issue I was complaining about at the outset has been entirely fixed.

    The bass rescaling helped quite a bit, as well as some Paulello wire on the tenor, however there was still a little more than a hint of the original "bad break syndrome" when crossing over. The solution was to install a riblet right at the bottom of the treble bridge. All problems "magically" disappeared as a result. VERY smooth across the break now. Piano actually sounds quite nice...better than new even, with Ronsen Bacon felt hammers, etc. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------