Pianotech

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!

Patrick, the couple of clicks that you heard from the action were likely from hammer shanks. My personal opinion is that teflon centers are not a big deal, now or in the future. Just pop out the few clicking action centers and replace them – assuming that enough of us still have the teflon kits or that you can get one from someone who does not need it. Use the center pins that are in the kits.

In my opinion, teflon is preferable to the verdigris problem with older Steinways. Regards, Norman

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!

I would not say anything to the sellers, for reasons you found out.  It's their piano, so they have to allow you to take it apart.  It's their choice.  In a separate place, you can discuss with the buyers the details of what you found, and perhaps suggest what they might offer, or just let the negotiation happen between the two.  I would not have an open discussion with the three of you, as your obligation is solely for the benefit of the buyer.  Your only job is to inform the buyer of any potential or existing problems, and give an opinion to the buyer on the asking price, nothing more.  If you want to be a broker for the buyer, it should be understood from the beginning, and you should at least charge a fee and/or a percentage of the savings in favor of the buyer.  In my book, that fee should outweigh your normal hourly rate, as you are in a different role than a technician.  Working hourly as a tech you have a set rate, but as a salesperson or broker, your fee doesn't depend upon how much time it takes.  As a broker, you would do the negotiation directly with the seller, subject to the agreement of the buyer.  That way, it is clear that the seller understands your position.  The statement to the seller and buyer that the piano is worth much less than the selling price is not really appropriate because you're there only to assess the condition of the piano.  Your opinion should only be shared with the buyer, and let the buyer quote you if they choose to do so during their negotiations. 

Just some thoughts on the matter..

Paul

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!

I agree with Paul completely. 

Unfortunately some sellers are intent on benefiting from "free" information from a paid pro, so they hang around and ask questions and simply be nosey. One must learn to keep silent during the process, or when asked a direct question one learns to give a vague and non-committal answer that does not give away specific valuable data. This takes a little practice.

In the case of a particularly "difficult" seller, I will look them straight in the eye and tell them: "I know you want to find out stuff, but you to remember that I'm being paid by the buyer here for this service. If you want to hire me later to give you an evaluation, you may, and the fee is $1,000.00".  That usually shuts them up. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I would not say anything to the sellers, for reasons you found out.  It's their piano, so they have to allow you to take it apart.  It's their choice.  In a separate place, you can discuss with the buyers the details of what you found, and perhaps suggest what they might offer, or just let the negotiation happen between the two.  I would not have an open discussion with the three of you, as your obligation is solely for the benefit of the buyer.  Your only job is to inform the buyer of any potential or existing problems, and give an opinion to the buyer on the asking price, nothing more.  If you want to be a broker for the buyer, it should be understood from the beginning, and you should at least charge a fee and/or a percentage of the savings in favor of the buyer.  In my book, that fee should outweigh your normal hourly rate, as you are in a different role than a technician.  Working hourly as a tech you have a set rate, but as a salesperson or broker, your fee doesn't depend upon how much time it takes.  As a broker, you would do the negotiation directly with the seller, subject to the agreement of the buyer.  That way, it is clear that the seller understands your position.  The statement to the seller and buyer that the piano is worth much less than the selling price is not really appropriate because you're there only to assess the condition of the piano.  Your opinion should only be shared with the buyer, and let the buyer quote you if they choose to do so during their negotiations. 

Just some thoughts on the matter..

Paul

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!

I agree with Paul completely. 

Unfortunately some sellers are intent on benefiting from "free" information from a paid pro, so they hang around and ask questions and simply be nosey. One must learn to keep silent during the process, or when asked a direct question one learns to give a vague and non-committal answer that does not give away specific valuable data. This takes a little practice.

In the case of a particularly "difficult" seller, I will look them straight in the eye and tell them: "I know you want to find out stuff, but you to remember that I'm being paid by the buyer here for this service. If you want to hire me later to give you an evaluation, you may, and the fee is $1,000.00".  That usually shuts them up. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I would not say anything to the sellers, for reasons you found out.  It's their piano, so they have to allow you to take it apart.  It's their choice.  In a separate place, you can discuss with the buyers the details of what you found, and perhaps suggest what they might offer, or just let the negotiation happen between the two.  I would not have an open discussion with the three of you, as your obligation is solely for the benefit of the buyer.  Your only job is to inform the buyer of any potential or existing problems, and give an opinion to the buyer on the asking price, nothing more.  If you want to be a broker for the buyer, it should be understood from the beginning, and you should at least charge a fee and/or a percentage of the savings in favor of the buyer.  In my book, that fee should outweigh your normal hourly rate, as you are in a different role than a technician.  Working hourly as a tech you have a set rate, but as a salesperson or broker, your fee doesn't depend upon how much time it takes.  As a broker, you would do the negotiation directly with the seller, subject to the agreement of the buyer.  That way, it is clear that the seller understands your position.  The statement to the seller and buyer that the piano is worth much less than the selling price is not really appropriate because you're there only to assess the condition of the piano.  Your opinion should only be shared with the buyer, and let the buyer quote you if they choose to do so during their negotiations. 

Just some thoughts on the matter..

Paul

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!

Thank you Paul and Peter for your sage advice.  This seller was radiating hostility.  I have been around a few psychopaths and sociopaths in my time and I could sense this in the seller, so it rattled me a bit.  You are correct.  It is best just to keep as silent as possible during the process and give little information.  I learned my lesson this time!

I agree with Paul completely. 

Unfortunately some sellers are intent on benefiting from "free" information from a paid pro, so they hang around and ask questions and simply be nosey. One must learn to keep silent during the process, or when asked a direct question one learns to give a vague and non-committal answer that does not give away specific valuable data. This takes a little practice.

In the case of a particularly "difficult" seller, I will look them straight in the eye and tell them: "I know you want to find out stuff, but you to remember that I'm being paid by the buyer here for this service. If you want to hire me later to give you an evaluation, you may, and the fee is $1,000.00".  That usually shuts them up. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I would not say anything to the sellers, for reasons you found out.  It's their piano, so they have to allow you to take it apart.  It's their choice.  In a separate place, you can discuss with the buyers the details of what you found, and perhaps suggest what they might offer, or just let the negotiation happen between the two.  I would not have an open discussion with the three of you, as your obligation is solely for the benefit of the buyer.  Your only job is to inform the buyer of any potential or existing problems, and give an opinion to the buyer on the asking price, nothing more.  If you want to be a broker for the buyer, it should be understood from the beginning, and you should at least charge a fee and/or a percentage of the savings in favor of the buyer.  In my book, that fee should outweigh your normal hourly rate, as you are in a different role than a technician.  Working hourly as a tech you have a set rate, but as a salesperson or broker, your fee doesn't depend upon how much time it takes.  As a broker, you would do the negotiation directly with the seller, subject to the agreement of the buyer.  That way, it is clear that the seller understands your position.  The statement to the seller and buyer that the piano is worth much less than the selling price is not really appropriate because you're there only to assess the condition of the piano.  Your opinion should only be shared with the buyer, and let the buyer quote you if they choose to do so during their negotiations. 

Just some thoughts on the matter..

Paul

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!

Patrick,

Hostility or aggression like that usually means that they're trying to hide something. Or something along that line. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Thank you Paul and Peter for your sage advice.  This seller was radiating hostility.  I have been around a few psychopaths and sociopaths in my time and I could sense this in the seller, so it rattled me a bit.  You are correct.  It is best just to keep as silent as possible during the process and give little information.  I learned my lesson this time!

I agree with Paul completely. 

Unfortunately some sellers are intent on benefiting from "free" information from a paid pro, so they hang around and ask questions and simply be nosey. One must learn to keep silent during the process, or when asked a direct question one learns to give a vague and non-committal answer that does not give away specific valuable data. This takes a little practice.

In the case of a particularly "difficult" seller, I will look them straight in the eye and tell them: "I know you want to find out stuff, but you to remember that I'm being paid by the buyer here for this service. If you want to hire me later to give you an evaluation, you may, and the fee is $1,000.00".  That usually shuts them up. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I would not say anything to the sellers, for reasons you found out.  It's their piano, so they have to allow you to take it apart.  It's their choice.  In a separate place, you can discuss with the buyers the details of what you found, and perhaps suggest what they might offer, or just let the negotiation happen between the two.  I would not have an open discussion with the three of you, as your obligation is solely for the benefit of the buyer.  Your only job is to inform the buyer of any potential or existing problems, and give an opinion to the buyer on the asking price, nothing more.  If you want to be a broker for the buyer, it should be understood from the beginning, and you should at least charge a fee and/or a percentage of the savings in favor of the buyer.  In my book, that fee should outweigh your normal hourly rate, as you are in a different role than a technician.  Working hourly as a tech you have a set rate, but as a salesperson or broker, your fee doesn't depend upon how much time it takes.  As a broker, you would do the negotiation directly with the seller, subject to the agreement of the buyer.  That way, it is clear that the seller understands your position.  The statement to the seller and buyer that the piano is worth much less than the selling price is not really appropriate because you're there only to assess the condition of the piano.  Your opinion should only be shared with the buyer, and let the buyer quote you if they choose to do so during their negotiations. 

Just some thoughts on the matter..

Paul

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!

Yes, thank you to Paul and Peter for the heads up on representing a buyer in a piano appraisal session. I've always been successful with open discussion in this situation, so if a lower price is warranted due to pending repairs or regulation, both parties understand. But a good point on potential caution.

Back to teflon bushings. Are we all in UNANIMOUS agreement (with me) that teflon bushings are good quality engineering, and worth preserving? There is a long history on the topic, and I thought we would hear from colleagues who are anxious to throw the teflon action parts away due to the humidity issue and re-engineer S&S piano actions from the 1962 – 1982 time frame with new parts?

Also, Peter, I would appreciate a little more detail on your needling approach. (A direct email would be fine.) Or if others have different fixes without needing to use the teflon kits, please volunteer. I was assuming (never tried it) that one could remove a teflon action center, glue size the wood hole, reinsert the bushings and re-use the old center pin. No?

Regards, Norman

Patrick,

Hostility or aggression like that usually means that they're trying to hide something. Or something along that line. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Thank you Paul and Peter for your sage advice.  This seller was radiating hostility.  I have been around a few psychopaths and sociopaths in my time and I could sense this in the seller, so it rattled me a bit.  You are correct.  It is best just to keep as silent as possible during the process and give little information.  I learned my lesson this time!

I agree with Paul completely. 

Unfortunately some sellers are intent on benefiting from "free" information from a paid pro, so they hang around and ask questions and simply be nosey. One must learn to keep silent during the process, or when asked a direct question one learns to give a vague and non-committal answer that does not give away specific valuable data. This takes a little practice.

In the case of a particularly "difficult" seller, I will look them straight in the eye and tell them: "I know you want to find out stuff, but you to remember that I'm being paid by the buyer here for this service. If you want to hire me later to give you an evaluation, you may, and the fee is $1,000.00".  That usually shuts them up. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I would not say anything to the sellers, for reasons you found out.  It's their piano, so they have to allow you to take it apart.  It's their choice.  In a separate place, you can discuss with the buyers the details of what you found, and perhaps suggest what they might offer, or just let the negotiation happen between the two.  I would not have an open discussion with the three of you, as your obligation is solely for the benefit of the buyer.  Your only job is to inform the buyer of any potential or existing problems, and give an opinion to the buyer on the asking price, nothing more.  If you want to be a broker for the buyer, it should be understood from the beginning, and you should at least charge a fee and/or a percentage of the savings in favor of the buyer.  In my book, that fee should outweigh your normal hourly rate, as you are in a different role than a technician.  Working hourly as a tech you have a set rate, but as a salesperson or broker, your fee doesn't depend upon how much time it takes.  As a broker, you would do the negotiation directly with the seller, subject to the agreement of the buyer.  That way, it is clear that the seller understands your position.  The statement to the seller and buyer that the piano is worth much less than the selling price is not really appropriate because you're there only to assess the condition of the piano.  Your opinion should only be shared with the buyer, and let the buyer quote you if they choose to do so during their negotiations. 

Just some thoughts on the matter..

Paul

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!

Yes, thank you to Paul and Peter for the heads up on representing a buyer in a piano appraisal session. I've always been successful with open discussion in this situation, so if a lower price is warranted due to pending repairs or regulation, both parties understand. But a good point on potential caution.

Back to teflon bushings. Are we all in UNANIMOUS agreement (with me) that teflon bushings are good quality engineering, and worth preserving? There is a long history on the topic, and I thought we would hear from colleagues who are anxious to throw the teflon action parts away due to the humidity issue and re-engineer S&S piano actions from the 1962 – 1982 time frame with new parts?

Also, Peter, I would appreciate a little more detail on your needling approach. (A direct email would be fine.) Or if others have different fixes without needing to use the teflon kits, please volunteer. I was assuming (never tried it) that one could remove a teflon action center, glue size the wood hole, reinsert the bushings and re-use the old center pin. No?

Regards, Norman

Patrick,

Hostility or aggression like that usually means that they're trying to hide something. Or something along that line. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Thank you Paul and Peter for your sage advice.  This seller was radiating hostility.  I have been around a few psychopaths and sociopaths in my time and I could sense this in the seller, so it rattled me a bit.  You are correct.  It is best just to keep as silent as possible during the process and give little information.  I learned my lesson this time!

I agree with Paul completely. 

Unfortunately some sellers are intent on benefiting from "free" information from a paid pro, so they hang around and ask questions and simply be nosey. One must learn to keep silent during the process, or when asked a direct question one learns to give a vague and non-committal answer that does not give away specific valuable data. This takes a little practice.

In the case of a particularly "difficult" seller, I will look them straight in the eye and tell them: "I know you want to find out stuff, but you to remember that I'm being paid by the buyer here for this service. If you want to hire me later to give you an evaluation, you may, and the fee is $1,000.00".  That usually shuts them up. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

I would not say anything to the sellers, for reasons you found out.  It's their piano, so they have to allow you to take it apart.  It's their choice.  In a separate place, you can discuss with the buyers the details of what you found, and perhaps suggest what they might offer, or just let the negotiation happen between the two.  I would not have an open discussion with the three of you, as your obligation is solely for the benefit of the buyer.  Your only job is to inform the buyer of any potential or existing problems, and give an opinion to the buyer on the asking price, nothing more.  If you want to be a broker for the buyer, it should be understood from the beginning, and you should at least charge a fee and/or a percentage of the savings in favor of the buyer.  In my book, that fee should outweigh your normal hourly rate, as you are in a different role than a technician.  Working hourly as a tech you have a set rate, but as a salesperson or broker, your fee doesn't depend upon how much time it takes.  As a broker, you would do the negotiation directly with the seller, subject to the agreement of the buyer.  That way, it is clear that the seller understands your position.  The statement to the seller and buyer that the piano is worth much less than the selling price is not really appropriate because you're there only to assess the condition of the piano.  Your opinion should only be shared with the buyer, and let the buyer quote you if they choose to do so during their negotiations. 

Just some thoughts on the matter..

Paul

Went to assess a Steinway M today that was produced within the Teflon Bushing years (1977). The seller was asking $20,000. I pulled the action (much to the seller's consternation) and found that all the bushings were Teflon. There were a couple of rattles, but everything else was in pristine condition. I told the buyer and the seller that this is something that if not needing repair now, will certainly need it in the future. The seller was furious with me and fairly hostile and that made me a bit nervous, but the buyers were grateful I had saved them a lot of money and frustration. I told the buyers that if they loved the piano as is, to offer a significant amount less than asking and hold that money back to have the action rebuilt with proper center pin bushings.  After the confrontation with the buyer, I realized that I do not charge enough for assessments!