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transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

  • 1.  transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2022 05:25
    Greetings,

    A colleague has asked me to cover for him at a recording studio. He tunes the piano in question with Verituner (which I am unfamiliar with). I regularly use iRCT (aka Cybertuner) and am also conversant with Sanderson Accu-Tuner.

    The best way to maintain stability is to routinely tune the same piano to the same temperament, with the same stretch, and at the same pitch. In that interest, I want to replicate his Verituner tuning with Cybertuner. If I understand Verituner correctly, the stumbling block seems to be that it tunes while listening to multiple partials, apportioning different amounts of weight to different partials. iRCT and SAT, on the other hand, tune to a single partial.

    So, the question is: How best to transcribe a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner (or Accu-Tuner, for that matter)?

    Anyone out there done this, successfully? In the absence of actual experience, speculation is also of interest.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2022 07:05
    You should ask your colleague what stretch template he uses with his VeriTuner. For example, he might be using a P12 template developed by Kent Swafford, or other customized temperaments. If you're using iRCT on an iPad you can emulate the stretch in Custom Equalizer. Customization on the iPhone version is less robust, but still quite capable.

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2022 09:15
    Patrick,

    Yes, if he was using a perfect 12th stretch template, I would expect that to closely approximate the OTSP in Cybertuner. However, he is using the Koval stretch.

    Any idea which OTS in Cybertuner that is closest too?

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2022 11:23
    Koval has several temperaments, and two stretch templates. Ask which he's using (especially if it isn't the ET temperament) & I can send you the information.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2022 13:49
    Patrick,

    He was s using Koval Universal 2.6.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2022 14:04
    Koval Universal 2.6 STRETCH, that is...

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2022 14:23
    Alan, I texted your cell phone with a screenshot with most of the Koval 2.6 stretch settings. Two of the settings weren't in the shot, here they are:
    A#6:    8:1  50%   4:1   40%     2:1    10%
    C8:      8:1  80%    4:1  10%     2:1    10%

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2022 14:25
    Thanks so much for this, Patrick. I will forward to the Verituner user.

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Member
    Posted 06-23-2022 18:17
    I've developed a way to show a tuning design visually, by taking the Verituner data and importing it to Excel. See for example this graph below. If you send me the *.vot file for that tuning, I can make this graph of that piano. Alternatively, if we don't have the *.vot file, if you specify the type and size of the piano, we can apply the Swafford P12 or any of the Koval styles.


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    Jason Kanter
    Lynnwood WA
    (425) 830-1561
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  • 10.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-23-2022 18:36
    Thanks so much for chiming in, and for your offer to assist with one fo your graphs. I have requested the "vot" file from the regular tuner.

    The piano is a Steinway D, and the tuner uses Equal Temperament, stretched to Koval Universal 2.6. But Jason, wouldn't you need inharmonicity data from this particular piano, or else what we would have would be a generic tuning?

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Member
    Posted 06-23-2022 19:26

    If the tuner used Verituner to tune that piano and saved the tuning, the resulting vot file contains the inharmonicity data and that's what this graph shows -- for each partial of each note, how many cents is it north or south of "perfect".



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    Jason Kanter
    Lynnwood WA
    (425) 830-1561
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Posted 06-24-2022 09:18
    Decades ago (! Verituner isn't really the 'new kid' on the block anymore!) Dave Carpenter warned me not to use the target numbers displayed in Fine mode as inharmonicity data. That information is buried a little deeper. While graphing the target numbers will give a general sense, it is best not to accept that as where each partial would be measured in the piano once tuned. For Verituner users, I've found it valuable to step through the tuning while observing the partial progression for each note. Often there will be notes where the partials seem 'out of place', where the spread of partials doesn't match the surrounding notes, or the progression would indicate negative inharmonicity. With careful remeasuring, often I am able to achieve much more consistent target numbers - sometimes this makes little difference at the spinner level, other times it can solve problems.

    Ron Koval

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    Ron Koval
    Chicagoland
    rontuner@hotmail.com
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  • 13.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Posted 06-24-2022 09:50

    I wouldn't worry too much about the numbers. Sometimes perfection on the dial just won't sound right to the pianist. Trust your ears. I'm reminded of Duke Ellington's remark, "If it sounds good and feels good, it is good."

     

    Laurence Libin

     






  • 14.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2022 14:39
    Laurence,

    I am in complete agreement with you (and, of course, with Sir Duke!) that, "If it sounds good..., it is good." Whether I tune this piano as I normally would with Cybertuner, or by ear, consistent, musical stretch and beautiful, stable unisons will always sound good, regardless of the amount of stretch chosen.

    The object of this thread, however, is to determine the best practice for maintaining the stability that my colleague (and former trainee) has built into this piano, despite the fact that our respective Electronic Tuning Devices speak different dialects between which facile translation is not possible. When the usual tech returns to this gig, I want the piano to be as close as possible to where it was when he last serviced it. One reason he approached me to be his sub is that he knows I will honor and respect his
    work and make no attempt to "poach" this prominent and lucrative client.

    Always good to hear from you!

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-24-2022 15:00
    Ron,

    You wrote that:
    "it is best not to accept that [the target numbers displayed in Fine mode] as where each partial would be measured in the piano once tuned." As a non-VT user, this sounds like maybe VT treats every tuning as a pitch correction, to some degree. Is that the case?

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Posted 06-24-2022 17:14
    From Alan "As a non-VT user, this sounds like maybe VT treats every tuning as a pitch correction, to some degree. Is that the case?"


    No, I believe that Dave Carpenter set up the VT to work this way as a safety - it calculates targets for a number of partials for each note, then drives the spinner with a combination of all of the listed partials, weighted (I believe) based on the strength of the sounding partials.

    So... IF the VT measuring of inharmonicity was perfect, then the targets could be used as representing the placement of the partials in a sounding string. Since I was warned against doing so, I can only assume that the inharmonicity measurement is not perfect. Experience backs this up.

    Ron Koval

    ------------------------------
    Ron Koval
    Chicagoland
    rontuner@hotmail.com
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  • 17.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2022 06:02
    If there’s a way to read out the frequency of a given partial for, say, A0, A2, A4, and A6 in both ETDs, that should give a good equivalence.

    —Cy—




  • 18.  RE: transcribing a tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 06-25-2022 08:24
    Cy,

    As Ron suggested, I could check the "A"s on the piano to determine which OTS most closely approximates the stretch of the tuning normally used. That would be Plan B, as we are still trying to translate the tuning from Verituner to Cybertuner.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    ------------------------------
    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
    ------------------------------