Pianotech

IDM. Unplug it, tune it, plug it back in. It will change the tuning as it cycles off and on. Tuners are not responsible for the poor choices piano owners make in the piano's environment.

Peter, I know of no empirical research, but yes, you are onto something regarding opening the piano up, especially if the room temp is that low. It would be interesting to know how much the temperature around the strings changes in different states of "undress".

In certain circumstances with grands, I'll give them a good 10 minutes or so to adjust after the lid is raised. A humidity/thermometer with memory would be a good start, then the internal temp can be continually monitored for up to a month. Another thing I haven't done but should is to take some readings before I open the cabinet at all. The effect on the bare wires is fairly quick but I imagine the effect on the plate would be much slower. I don't know if those laser thermometers would be helpful. It would definitely be helpful to know the ambient temperature inside the piano when it's all closed up.

I don't think we give as much attention to room temperature as we should, but then, generally we don't have much control over it and we can't tune it when it's all closed up. 

IDM. Unplug it, tune it, plug it back in. It will change the tuning as it cycles off and on. Tuners are not responsible for the poor choices piano owners make in the piano's environment.

Bill Clayton, RPT in Charlotte NC had to maintain several vertical pianos with DampChaser systems in cold churches.

He dealt with the problem by covering the piano with two plastic drop cloths, manipulating them to prevent the escape of warm air from the piano, only making a tiny opening at the tuning pin being tuned. (If he's reading this, he might share details.)

Since we are the one's who sold the DC system to the piano owner, it is our responsibility to deal with problems caused by the DC system cycling between humidifying and de-humidifying rods and warm air escaping the piano.

I discovered this while testing my tuning skills on my own piano. The temperature change from the big rod can lower pitch by 5 cents.

My approach in field tuning in homes was to unplug the DC system while tuning, then plug it in when done. I was never certain how helpful this was, but I didn't receive customer complaints.

Peter, I know of no empirical research, but yes, you are onto something regarding opening the piano up, especially if the room temp is that low. It would be interesting to know how much the temperature around the strings changes in different states of "undress".

In certain circumstances with grands, I'll give them a good 10 minutes or so to adjust after the lid is raised. A humidity/thermometer with memory would be a good start, then the internal temp can be continually monitored for up to a month. Another thing I haven't done but should is to take some readings before I open the cabinet at all. The effect on the bare wires is fairly quick but I imagine the effect on the plate would be much slower. I don't know if those laser thermometers would be helpful. It would definitely be helpful to know the ambient temperature inside the piano when it's all closed up.

I don't think we give as much attention to room temperature as we should, but then, generally we don't have much control over it and we can't tune it when it's all closed up. 

IDM. Unplug it, tune it, plug it back in. It will change the tuning as it cycles off and on. Tuners are not responsible for the poor choices piano owners make in the piano's environment.

Bill Clayton, RPT in Charlotte NC had to maintain several vertical pianos with DampChaser systems in cold churches.

He dealt with the problem by covering the piano with two plastic drop cloths, manipulating them to prevent the escape of warm air from the piano, only making a tiny opening at the tuning pin being tuned. (If he's reading this, he might share details.)

Since we are the one's who sold the DC system to the piano owner, it is our responsibility to deal with problems caused by the DC system cycling between humidifying and de-humidifying rods and warm air escaping the piano.

I discovered this while testing my tuning skills on my own piano. The temperature change from the big rod can lower pitch by 5 cents.

My approach in field tuning in homes was to unplug the DC system while tuning, then plug it in when done. I was never certain how helpful this was, but I didn't receive customer complaints.

Peter, I know of no empirical research, but yes, you are onto something regarding opening the piano up, especially if the room temp is that low. It would be interesting to know how much the temperature around the strings changes in different states of "undress".

In certain circumstances with grands, I'll give them a good 10 minutes or so to adjust after the lid is raised. A humidity/thermometer with memory would be a good start, then the internal temp can be continually monitored for up to a month. Another thing I haven't done but should is to take some readings before I open the cabinet at all. The effect on the bare wires is fairly quick but I imagine the effect on the plate would be much slower. I don't know if those laser thermometers would be helpful. It would definitely be helpful to know the ambient temperature inside the piano when it's all closed up.

I don't think we give as much attention to room temperature as we should, but then, generally we don't have much control over it and we can't tune it when it's all closed up. 

IDM. Unplug it, tune it, plug it back in. It will change the tuning as it cycles off and on. Tuners are not responsible for the poor choices piano owners make in the piano's environment.

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I am inclined to agree with Ed on this one. I sold this system with the promise that it would help tuning stability.

Bill Clayton's procedure seems like it would be the most effective, but would mess up my workflow. Usually I am moving back and forth between tuning and regulating, voicing, finding buzzes, etc. I am never "just tuning" this piano.

Another option would be to have them turn on the heat when I arrive and wait to tune until the room temperature is stable. Normally I would ask the temperature to be set to whatever it would be during a performance, but in this case, they only turn on the heat when it goes below 15 degrees. My guess is that even going up to 17 or 18 degrees would substantially help with this issue. I wonder if Dampp-Chaser has a recommended temperature range for their product.

Bill Clayton, RPT in Charlotte NC had to maintain several vertical pianos with DampChaser systems in cold churches.

He dealt with the problem by covering the piano with two plastic drop cloths, manipulating them to prevent the escape of warm air from the piano, only making a tiny opening at the tuning pin being tuned. (If he's reading this, he might share details.)

Since we are the one's who sold the DC system to the piano owner, it is our responsibility to deal with problems caused by the DC system cycling between humidifying and de-humidifying rods and warm air escaping the piano.

I discovered this while testing my tuning skills on my own piano. The temperature change from the big rod can lower pitch by 5 cents.

My approach in field tuning in homes was to unplug the DC system while tuning, then plug it in when done. I was never certain how helpful this was, but I didn't receive customer complaints.

Peter, I know of no empirical research, but yes, you are onto something regarding opening the piano up, especially if the room temp is that low. It would be interesting to know how much the temperature around the strings changes in different states of "undress".

In certain circumstances with grands, I'll give them a good 10 minutes or so to adjust after the lid is raised. A humidity/thermometer with memory would be a good start, then the internal temp can be continually monitored for up to a month. Another thing I haven't done but should is to take some readings before I open the cabinet at all. The effect on the bare wires is fairly quick but I imagine the effect on the plate would be much slower. I don't know if those laser thermometers would be helpful. It would definitely be helpful to know the ambient temperature inside the piano when it's all closed up.

I don't think we give as much attention to room temperature as we should, but then, generally we don't have much control over it and we can't tune it when it's all closed up. 

IDM. Unplug it, tune it, plug it back in. It will change the tuning as it cycles off and on. Tuners are not responsible for the poor choices piano owners make in the piano's environment.

Peter-

To be clear, I believe the problem you're having is caused by the change of temperature changing the tension and thus the pitch of the piano wires, and that the ones closer to the heating rod are more quickly effected than those further away. (It's not because of the soundboard changing in less than a minute.)

The greater the difference between the ambient air temperature and the air nearby, heated by the heating rod, the greater the pitch change. 

Also, because of this, when the warm piano is opened in a cold room, the air in the piano rises, cool air enters the piano and the temperature differences are greater, again increasing the pitch change.

I think you're right that warming the environment before opening the piano will reduce the differences.

I'm having a wild thought: what if you had a space heater, at a carefully chosen distance, blowing warm air into the piano? To test this you could take pitch measurements before opening the piano, then set up the open piano with the heater, measuring the pitches to find (if possible) the placement where the heater was sending just enough warm air to keep the piano at pitch. Maybe too much trouble...or maybe a miracle?

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I am inclined to agree with Ed on this one. I sold this system with the promise that it would help tuning stability.

Bill Clayton's procedure seems like it would be the most effective, but would mess up my workflow. Usually I am moving back and forth between tuning and regulating, voicing, finding buzzes, etc. I am never "just tuning" this piano.

Another option would be to have them turn on the heat when I arrive and wait to tune until the room temperature is stable. Normally I would ask the temperature to be set to whatever it would be during a performance, but in this case, they only turn on the heat when it goes below 15 degrees. My guess is that even going up to 17 or 18 degrees would substantially help with this issue. I wonder if Dampp-Chaser has a recommended temperature range for their product.

Bill Clayton, RPT in Charlotte NC had to maintain several vertical pianos with DampChaser systems in cold churches.

He dealt with the problem by covering the piano with two plastic drop cloths, manipulating them to prevent the escape of warm air from the piano, only making a tiny opening at the tuning pin being tuned. (If he's reading this, he might share details.)

Since we are the one's who sold the DC system to the piano owner, it is our responsibility to deal with problems caused by the DC system cycling between humidifying and de-humidifying rods and warm air escaping the piano.

I discovered this while testing my tuning skills on my own piano. The temperature change from the big rod can lower pitch by 5 cents.

My approach in field tuning in homes was to unplug the DC system while tuning, then plug it in when done. I was never certain how helpful this was, but I didn't receive customer complaints.

Peter, I know of no empirical research, but yes, you are onto something regarding opening the piano up, especially if the room temp is that low. It would be interesting to know how much the temperature around the strings changes in different states of "undress".

In certain circumstances with grands, I'll give them a good 10 minutes or so to adjust after the lid is raised. A humidity/thermometer with memory would be a good start, then the internal temp can be continually monitored for up to a month. Another thing I haven't done but should is to take some readings before I open the cabinet at all. The effect on the bare wires is fairly quick but I imagine the effect on the plate would be much slower. I don't know if those laser thermometers would be helpful. It would definitely be helpful to know the ambient temperature inside the piano when it's all closed up.

I don't think we give as much attention to room temperature as we should, but then, generally we don't have much control over it and we can't tune it when it's all closed up. 

IDM. Unplug it, tune it, plug it back in. It will change the tuning as it cycles off and on. Tuners are not responsible for the poor choices piano owners make in the piano's environment.

Thanks for the responses, everyone. I am inclined to agree with Ed on this one. I sold this system with the promise that it would help tuning stability.

Bill Clayton's procedure seems like it would be the most effective, but would mess up my workflow. Usually I am moving back and forth between tuning and regulating, voicing, finding buzzes, etc. I am never "just tuning" this piano.

Another option would be to have them turn on the heat when I arrive and wait to tune until the room temperature is stable. Normally I would ask the temperature to be set to whatever it would be during a performance, but in this case, they only turn on the heat when it goes below 15 degrees. My guess is that even going up to 17 or 18 degrees would substantially help with this issue. I wonder if Dampp-Chaser has a recommended temperature range for their product.

Bill Clayton, RPT in Charlotte NC had to maintain several vertical pianos with DampChaser systems in cold churches.

He dealt with the problem by covering the piano with two plastic drop cloths, manipulating them to prevent the escape of warm air from the piano, only making a tiny opening at the tuning pin being tuned. (If he's reading this, he might share details.)

Since we are the one's who sold the DC system to the piano owner, it is our responsibility to deal with problems caused by the DC system cycling between humidifying and de-humidifying rods and warm air escaping the piano.

I discovered this while testing my tuning skills on my own piano. The temperature change from the big rod can lower pitch by 5 cents.

My approach in field tuning in homes was to unplug the DC system while tuning, then plug it in when done. I was never certain how helpful this was, but I didn't receive customer complaints.

Peter, I know of no empirical research, but yes, you are onto something regarding opening the piano up, especially if the room temp is that low. It would be interesting to know how much the temperature around the strings changes in different states of "undress".

In certain circumstances with grands, I'll give them a good 10 minutes or so to adjust after the lid is raised. A humidity/thermometer with memory would be a good start, then the internal temp can be continually monitored for up to a month. Another thing I haven't done but should is to take some readings before I open the cabinet at all. The effect on the bare wires is fairly quick but I imagine the effect on the plate would be much slower. I don't know if those laser thermometers would be helpful. It would definitely be helpful to know the ambient temperature inside the piano when it's all closed up.

I don't think we give as much attention to room temperature as we should, but then, generally we don't have much control over it and we can't tune it when it's all closed up. 

IDM. Unplug it, tune it, plug it back in. It will change the tuning as it cycles off and on. Tuners are not responsible for the poor choices piano owners make in the piano's environment.

You mentioned that it is in a theatre. Perhaps the piano was on stage, with traditional incandescent stage lighting turned on? Though I think heating would have the opposite effect.

Most pianos are in smaller spaces, with rooms maintaining a higher temperature for human comfort. I expect that the internal temp of the piano (from ongoing PLSS heating/dehumidifying) had a larger than normal delta to the theatre's temp. A significant cooling of the strings would have an immediate pitch-raising impact.  Did you open the bottom board for the tuning?

Turning off or leaving on the PLSS during the tuning couldn't have much of an impact.

A significant change in room temperature during the course of a tuning undoes your work as you proceed.  If I walk into a venue and am told that the room was cold, but the heat was turned on 30 minutes ago, that is grounds for rescheduling the tuning.  Otherwise, one part of the piano ends up being tuned, at least on the first pass, at one temperature, and another part at a higher temperature.

If a arrive to tune an upright piano, and the dehumidifier bar is hot, I unplug the system, and wait for several minutes for the inside of the piano to return to room temperature.  If I arrive and the bar is cool, but I think there is any possibility it will turn on as I tune, I unplug the system (positioning the power cord so as to be a visual reminder for me to plug it back in), or if I can't reach the outlet, I unplug the dehumidifier bar.

The proximity of the dehumidifier bar to the bass strings is the biggest factor here.  In a grand, it is a non-issue.  The strings change temperature faster than the structural components of the piano, introducing a wild card that is just unhelpful.

You mentioned that it is in a theatre. Perhaps the piano was on stage, with traditional incandescent stage lighting turned on? Though I think heating would have the opposite effect.

Most pianos are in smaller spaces, with rooms maintaining a higher temperature for human comfort. I expect that the internal temp of the piano (from ongoing PLSS heating/dehumidifying) had a larger than normal delta to the theatre's temp. A significant cooling of the strings would have an immediate pitch-raising impact.  Did you open the bottom board for the tuning?

Turning off or leaving on the PLSS during the tuning couldn't have much of an impact.