Pianotech

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Yes! Thanks for all your posts Chris.

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

An anecdote:

I once asked a Steinway tech "When did you switch from shellac to laquer for hammer hardner?".  The answer: "When we ran out of shellac."

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer. 

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences. 

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse. 

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not. So i have come to know different sounds and how it corresponds to different sections,shapes, and size of the hammer. So i don't know if my descriptions will help or not. I use both B-72 and spray shellac to alter the attack. I use all fabric softener in a mist spray to reduce surface tension to increase sustain. B-72 when the tone is too open. I use sandarac when forte is missing. All of these things are at the end of the voicing process, so normally very little is required. 

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
All the elements are known, and yet no combination there of creates life. Yet we are here.
865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 02:29
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Chris went:

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not.

You're clearly much further down this road than most of the people on this list. For the rest of us, the basic mechanical principles should be in place:

1.) These resins stiffen the felt fibers, slowing down their elastic reaction, and

2.) There are three basic states of resin reinforcement: first, individual fibers are sheathed; two, closely adjacent fibers will be connected by the resins (ie., glued together), and three, the air space between all fibers get filed in with resins, robbing the felt mass of any ability for an elastic reaction.

I'm sure anyone, in their initial experience with resins, has run into these three states.

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not. So i have come to know different sounds and how it corresponds to different sections,shapes, and size of the hammer. So i don't know if my descriptions will help or not. I use both B-72 and spray shellac to alter the attack. I use all fabric softener in a mist spray to reduce surface tension to increase sustain. B-72 when the tone is too open. I use sandarac when forte is missing. All of these things are at the end of the voicing process, so normally very little is required. 

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
All the elements are known, and yet no combination there of creates life. Yet we are here.
865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 02:29
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Chris went:

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not.

You're clearly much further down this road than most of the people on this list. For the rest of us, the basic mechanical principles should be in place:

1.) These resins stiffen the felt fibers, slowing down their elastic reaction, and

2.) There are three basic states of resin reinforcement: first, individual fibers are sheathed; two, closely adjacent fibers will be connected by the resins (ie., glued together), and three, the air space between all fibers get filed in with resins, robbing the felt mass of any ability for an elastic reaction.

I'm sure anyone, in their initial experience with resins, has run into these three states.

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not. So i have come to know different sounds and how it corresponds to different sections,shapes, and size of the hammer. So i don't know if my descriptions will help or not. I use both B-72 and spray shellac to alter the attack. I use all fabric softener in a mist spray to reduce surface tension to increase sustain. B-72 when the tone is too open. I use sandarac when forte is missing. All of these things are at the end of the voicing process, so normally very little is required. 

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
All the elements are known, and yet no combination there of creates life. Yet we are here.
865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 02:29
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Chris went:

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not.

You're clearly much further down this road than most of the people on this list. For the rest of us, the basic mechanical principles should be in place:

1.) These resins stiffen the felt fibers, slowing down their elastic reaction, and

2.) There are three basic states of resin reinforcement: first, individual fibers are sheathed; two, closely adjacent fibers will be connected by the resins (ie., glued together), and three, the air space between all fibers get filed in with resins, robbing the felt mass of any ability for an elastic reaction.

I'm sure anyone, in their initial experience with resins, has run into these three states.

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not. So i have come to know different sounds and how it corresponds to different sections,shapes, and size of the hammer. So i don't know if my descriptions will help or not. I use both B-72 and spray shellac to alter the attack. I use all fabric softener in a mist spray to reduce surface tension to increase sustain. B-72 when the tone is too open. I use sandarac when forte is missing. All of these things are at the end of the voicing process, so normally very little is required. 

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
All the elements are known, and yet no combination there of creates life. Yet we are here.
865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 02:29
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Further down the road?  I think it was a wrong turn. 

Chris went:

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not.

You're clearly much further down this road than most of the people on this list. For the rest of us, the basic mechanical principles should be in place:

1.) These resins stiffen the felt fibers, slowing down their elastic reaction, and

2.) There are three basic states of resin reinforcement: first, individual fibers are sheathed; two, closely adjacent fibers will be connected by the resins (ie., glued together), and three, the air space between all fibers get filed in with resins, robbing the felt mass of any ability for an elastic reaction.

I'm sure anyone, in their initial experience with resins, has run into these three states.

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not. So i have come to know different sounds and how it corresponds to different sections,shapes, and size of the hammer. So i don't know if my descriptions will help or not. I use both B-72 and spray shellac to alter the attack. I use all fabric softener in a mist spray to reduce surface tension to increase sustain. B-72 when the tone is too open. I use sandarac when forte is missing. All of these things are at the end of the voicing process, so normally very little is required. 

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
All the elements are known, and yet no combination there of creates life. Yet we are here.
865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 02:29
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Further down the road?  I think it was a wrong turn. 

Chris went:

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not.

You're clearly much further down this road than most of the people on this list. For the rest of us, the basic mechanical principles should be in place:

1.) These resins stiffen the felt fibers, slowing down their elastic reaction, and

2.) There are three basic states of resin reinforcement: first, individual fibers are sheathed; two, closely adjacent fibers will be connected by the resins (ie., glued together), and three, the air space between all fibers get filed in with resins, robbing the felt mass of any ability for an elastic reaction.

I'm sure anyone, in their initial experience with resins, has run into these three states.

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not. So i have come to know different sounds and how it corresponds to different sections,shapes, and size of the hammer. So i don't know if my descriptions will help or not. I use both B-72 and spray shellac to alter the attack. I use all fabric softener in a mist spray to reduce surface tension to increase sustain. B-72 when the tone is too open. I use sandarac when forte is missing. All of these things are at the end of the voicing process, so normally very little is required. 

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
All the elements are known, and yet no combination there of creates life. Yet we are here.
865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 02:29
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

When i voice. i think of its tone color (musicality), not if it's a non linear spring or not. So i have come to know different sounds and how it corresponds to different sections,shapes, and size of the hammer. So i don't know if my descriptions will help or not. I use both B-72 and spray shellac to alter the attack. I use all fabric softener in a mist spray to reduce surface tension to increase sustain. B-72 when the tone is too open. I use sandarac when forte is missing. All of these things are at the end of the voicing process, so normally very little is required. 

------------------------------
Chernobieff Piano Restorations
All the elements are known, and yet no combination there of creates life. Yet we are here.
865-986-7720 (text only please)

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 02:29
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Chris,

If you were going to use a shellac based hardner what would you mix the shellac with, and which grade or type of shellac would you use?

The list of additives, dillutants and softeners is long (gum allemi, myrr, benzoin, pine resin, sandarac, copal, propolis, etc...).

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

Chris wrote: "Actually there was never a such a thing as a shellac finish. It was a mixture of different tree resins to achieve a goal through chemists to fit the needs of a finisher."

 Say what????  

Shellac is a natural resinous substance derived from the secretions of the lac insect, found in parts of Southeast Asia and India. It has been used for centuries  

The use of shellac dates back thousands of years, with evidence of its use in ancient India and China. It gained popularity in Europe during the 17th century when it was imported as a decorative finish for furniture, musical instruments, and artwork. 

Shellac became particularly renowned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as a versatile and durable coating. It was widely used in various industries, including woodworking, metal finishing, and even in the production of phonograph records. Shellac's natural properties made it an excellent adhesive, protective coating, and glossy finish.

To obtain shellac, lac insects are cultivated on host trees, such as the varieties found in India and Thailand. The insects secrete a resinous substance, which is collected and processed into different forms. Shellac is available in various grades, ranging from clear and light-colored to darker amber tones.

In addition to its use as a protective and decorative finish, shellac has found applications in food and pharmaceutical industries. It is used as a glaze for candies, a coating for medicines, and a protective coating for fruits.

However, it's worth noting that in recent years, the popularity of shellac has somewhat diminished due to the emergence of synthetic alternatives and changing consumer preferences. Nonetheless, it remains a significant part of cultural heritage and continues to be used in niche applications.

 Chris, I think you need a new source. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

David,

My first reaction was like yours, but then I have a library of violin and french polish references and I looked it up.  Most french polish formulas involve shellac and other resins, though I frequently use it alone (for a finish).

Shellac has a pleasant "hand", in that tool handles with a shellac finish are more pleasant to hold.

When you use it in a touch-up you MUST dilute it with something else.  The traditional violin touch-up formula (1704) is seed lac and gum elemi.  If  you use only shellac for touch up and you try sanding your touch-up the result can be disasterous as the new shellac can be much harder than the original finish and you cannot blend your touch-up spots in.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 17:09
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris wrote: "Actually there was never a such a thing as a shellac finish. It was a mixture of different tree resins to achieve a goal through chemists to fit the needs of a finisher."

 Say what????  

Shellac is a natural resinous substance derived from the secretions of the lac insect, found in parts of Southeast Asia and India. It has been used for centuries  

The use of shellac dates back thousands of years, with evidence of its use in ancient India and China. It gained popularity in Europe during the 17th century when it was imported as a decorative finish for furniture, musical instruments, and artwork. 

Shellac became particularly renowned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as a versatile and durable coating. It was widely used in various industries, including woodworking, metal finishing, and even in the production of phonograph records. Shellac's natural properties made it an excellent adhesive, protective coating, and glossy finish.

To obtain shellac, lac insects are cultivated on host trees, such as the varieties found in India and Thailand. The insects secrete a resinous substance, which is collected and processed into different forms. Shellac is available in various grades, ranging from clear and light-colored to darker amber tones.

In addition to its use as a protective and decorative finish, shellac has found applications in food and pharmaceutical industries. It is used as a glaze for candies, a coating for medicines, and a protective coating for fruits.

However, it's worth noting that in recent years, the popularity of shellac has somewhat diminished due to the emergence of synthetic alternatives and changing consumer preferences. Nonetheless, it remains a significant part of cultural heritage and continues to be used in niche applications.

 Chris, I think you need a new source. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

If violins are done with "resins" it's called varnish, not shellac. 

David,

My first reaction was like yours, but then I have a library of violin and french polish references and I looked it up.  Most french polish formulas involve shellac and other resins, though I frequently use it alone (for a finish).

Shellac has a pleasant "hand", in that tool handles with a shellac finish are more pleasant to hold.

When you use it in a touch-up you MUST dilute it with something else.  The traditional violin touch-up formula (1704) is seed lac and gum elemi.  If  you use only shellac for touch up and you try sanding your touch-up the result can be disasterous as the new shellac can be much harder than the original finish and you cannot blend your touch-up spots in.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 17:09
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris wrote: "Actually there was never a such a thing as a shellac finish. It was a mixture of different tree resins to achieve a goal through chemists to fit the needs of a finisher."

 Say what????  

Shellac is a natural resinous substance derived from the secretions of the lac insect, found in parts of Southeast Asia and India. It has been used for centuries  

The use of shellac dates back thousands of years, with evidence of its use in ancient India and China. It gained popularity in Europe during the 17th century when it was imported as a decorative finish for furniture, musical instruments, and artwork. 

Shellac became particularly renowned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as a versatile and durable coating. It was widely used in various industries, including woodworking, metal finishing, and even in the production of phonograph records. Shellac's natural properties made it an excellent adhesive, protective coating, and glossy finish.

To obtain shellac, lac insects are cultivated on host trees, such as the varieties found in India and Thailand. The insects secrete a resinous substance, which is collected and processed into different forms. Shellac is available in various grades, ranging from clear and light-colored to darker amber tones.

In addition to its use as a protective and decorative finish, shellac has found applications in food and pharmaceutical industries. It is used as a glaze for candies, a coating for medicines, and a protective coating for fruits.

However, it's worth noting that in recent years, the popularity of shellac has somewhat diminished due to the emergence of synthetic alternatives and changing consumer preferences. Nonetheless, it remains a significant part of cultural heritage and continues to be used in niche applications.

 Chris, I think you need a new source. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

"Varnish" has many different meanings to many people:

a. A liquid that contains a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder and is applied to a surface to produce a hard, transparent finish after evaporation and curing.

Most oil varnishes cure by oxidation and polymerization.  Most lacquer and shellac finishes cure by evaporation, though some oxidative curing takes place due to the polymerization of the resins and oils used.

In the US "varnish" often refers to a polymerized flaxseed (linseed) oil, usualy with some other resins added, that mostly air cures by oxidation, accelerated by the addition of metal catalysts.

In curation and restoration varnish refers to any coating applied over a wood or paint surface to preserve it.

If violins are done with "resins" it's called varnish, not shellac. 

David,

My first reaction was like yours, but then I have a library of violin and french polish references and I looked it up.  Most french polish formulas involve shellac and other resins, though I frequently use it alone (for a finish).

Shellac has a pleasant "hand", in that tool handles with a shellac finish are more pleasant to hold.

When you use it in a touch-up you MUST dilute it with something else.  The traditional violin touch-up formula (1704) is seed lac and gum elemi.  If  you use only shellac for touch up and you try sanding your touch-up the result can be disasterous as the new shellac can be much harder than the original finish and you cannot blend your touch-up spots in.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 17:09
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris wrote: "Actually there was never a such a thing as a shellac finish. It was a mixture of different tree resins to achieve a goal through chemists to fit the needs of a finisher."

 Say what????  

Shellac is a natural resinous substance derived from the secretions of the lac insect, found in parts of Southeast Asia and India. It has been used for centuries  

The use of shellac dates back thousands of years, with evidence of its use in ancient India and China. It gained popularity in Europe during the 17th century when it was imported as a decorative finish for furniture, musical instruments, and artwork. 

Shellac became particularly renowned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as a versatile and durable coating. It was widely used in various industries, including woodworking, metal finishing, and even in the production of phonograph records. Shellac's natural properties made it an excellent adhesive, protective coating, and glossy finish.

To obtain shellac, lac insects are cultivated on host trees, such as the varieties found in India and Thailand. The insects secrete a resinous substance, which is collected and processed into different forms. Shellac is available in various grades, ranging from clear and light-colored to darker amber tones.

In addition to its use as a protective and decorative finish, shellac has found applications in food and pharmaceutical industries. It is used as a glaze for candies, a coating for medicines, and a protective coating for fruits.

However, it's worth noting that in recent years, the popularity of shellac has somewhat diminished due to the emergence of synthetic alternatives and changing consumer preferences. Nonetheless, it remains a significant part of cultural heritage and continues to be used in niche applications.

 Chris, I think you need a new source. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Then there is "shellac":

shellac

verb

"Varnish" has many different meanings to many people:

a. A liquid that contains a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder and is applied to a surface to produce a hard, transparent finish after evaporation and curing.

Most oil varnishes cure by oxidation and polymerization.  Most lacquer and shellac finishes cure by evaporation, though some oxidative curing takes place due to the polymerization of the resins and oils used.

In the US "varnish" often refers to a polymerized flaxseed (linseed) oil, usualy with some other resins added, that mostly air cures by oxidation, accelerated by the addition of metal catalysts.

In curation and restoration varnish refers to any coating applied over a wood or paint surface to preserve it.

If violins are done with "resins" it's called varnish, not shellac. 

David,

My first reaction was like yours, but then I have a library of violin and french polish references and I looked it up.  Most french polish formulas involve shellac and other resins, though I frequently use it alone (for a finish).

Shellac has a pleasant "hand", in that tool handles with a shellac finish are more pleasant to hold.

When you use it in a touch-up you MUST dilute it with something else.  The traditional violin touch-up formula (1704) is seed lac and gum elemi.  If  you use only shellac for touch up and you try sanding your touch-up the result can be disasterous as the new shellac can be much harder than the original finish and you cannot blend your touch-up spots in.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 17:09
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris wrote: "Actually there was never a such a thing as a shellac finish. It was a mixture of different tree resins to achieve a goal through chemists to fit the needs of a finisher."

 Say what????  

Shellac is a natural resinous substance derived from the secretions of the lac insect, found in parts of Southeast Asia and India. It has been used for centuries  

The use of shellac dates back thousands of years, with evidence of its use in ancient India and China. It gained popularity in Europe during the 17th century when it was imported as a decorative finish for furniture, musical instruments, and artwork. 

Shellac became particularly renowned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as a versatile and durable coating. It was widely used in various industries, including woodworking, metal finishing, and even in the production of phonograph records. Shellac's natural properties made it an excellent adhesive, protective coating, and glossy finish.

To obtain shellac, lac insects are cultivated on host trees, such as the varieties found in India and Thailand. The insects secrete a resinous substance, which is collected and processed into different forms. Shellac is available in various grades, ranging from clear and light-colored to darker amber tones.

In addition to its use as a protective and decorative finish, shellac has found applications in food and pharmaceutical industries. It is used as a glaze for candies, a coating for medicines, and a protective coating for fruits.

However, it's worth noting that in recent years, the popularity of shellac has somewhat diminished due to the emergence of synthetic alternatives and changing consumer preferences. Nonetheless, it remains a significant part of cultural heritage and continues to be used in niche applications.

 Chris, I think you need a new source. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Then there is "shellac":

shellac

verb

"Varnish" has many different meanings to many people:

a. A liquid that contains a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder and is applied to a surface to produce a hard, transparent finish after evaporation and curing.

Most oil varnishes cure by oxidation and polymerization.  Most lacquer and shellac finishes cure by evaporation, though some oxidative curing takes place due to the polymerization of the resins and oils used.

In the US "varnish" often refers to a polymerized flaxseed (linseed) oil, usualy with some other resins added, that mostly air cures by oxidation, accelerated by the addition of metal catalysts.

In curation and restoration varnish refers to any coating applied over a wood or paint surface to preserve it.

If violins are done with "resins" it's called varnish, not shellac. 

David,

My first reaction was like yours, but then I have a library of violin and french polish references and I looked it up.  Most french polish formulas involve shellac and other resins, though I frequently use it alone (for a finish).

Shellac has a pleasant "hand", in that tool handles with a shellac finish are more pleasant to hold.

When you use it in a touch-up you MUST dilute it with something else.  The traditional violin touch-up formula (1704) is seed lac and gum elemi.  If  you use only shellac for touch up and you try sanding your touch-up the result can be disasterous as the new shellac can be much harder than the original finish and you cannot blend your touch-up spots in.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 17:09
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris wrote: "Actually there was never a such a thing as a shellac finish. It was a mixture of different tree resins to achieve a goal through chemists to fit the needs of a finisher."

 Say what????  

Shellac is a natural resinous substance derived from the secretions of the lac insect, found in parts of Southeast Asia and India. It has been used for centuries  

The use of shellac dates back thousands of years, with evidence of its use in ancient India and China. It gained popularity in Europe during the 17th century when it was imported as a decorative finish for furniture, musical instruments, and artwork. 

Shellac became particularly renowned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as a versatile and durable coating. It was widely used in various industries, including woodworking, metal finishing, and even in the production of phonograph records. Shellac's natural properties made it an excellent adhesive, protective coating, and glossy finish.

To obtain shellac, lac insects are cultivated on host trees, such as the varieties found in India and Thailand. The insects secrete a resinous substance, which is collected and processed into different forms. Shellac is available in various grades, ranging from clear and light-colored to darker amber tones.

In addition to its use as a protective and decorative finish, shellac has found applications in food and pharmaceutical industries. It is used as a glaze for candies, a coating for medicines, and a protective coating for fruits.

However, it's worth noting that in recent years, the popularity of shellac has somewhat diminished due to the emergence of synthetic alternatives and changing consumer preferences. Nonetheless, it remains a significant part of cultural heritage and continues to be used in niche applications.

 Chris, I think you need a new source. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 6/26/2023 12:35:00 AM
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

Then there is "shellac":

shellac

verb

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-26-2023 00:00
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

"Varnish" has many different meanings to many people:

a. A liquid that contains a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder and is applied to a surface to produce a hard, transparent finish after evaporation and curing.

Most oil varnishes cure by oxidation and polymerization.  Most lacquer and shellac finishes cure by evaporation, though some oxidative curing takes place due to the polymerization of the resins and oils used.

In the US "varnish" often refers to a polymerized flaxseed (linseed) oil, usualy with some other resins added, that mostly air cures by oxidation, accelerated by the addition of metal catalysts.

In curation and restoration varnish refers to any coating applied over a wood or paint surface to preserve it.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-25-2023 10:10
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

If violins are done with "resins" it's called varnish, not shellac. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 23:51
From: Blaine Hebert
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David,

My first reaction was like yours, but then I have a library of violin and french polish references and I looked it up.  Most french polish formulas involve shellac and other resins, though I frequently use it alone (for a finish).

Shellac has a pleasant "hand", in that tool handles with a shellac finish are more pleasant to hold.

When you use it in a touch-up you MUST dilute it with something else.  The traditional violin touch-up formula (1704) is seed lac and gum elemi.  If  you use only shellac for touch up and you try sanding your touch-up the result can be disasterous as the new shellac can be much harder than the original finish and you cannot blend your touch-up spots in.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 17:09
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris wrote: "Actually there was never a such a thing as a shellac finish. It was a mixture of different tree resins to achieve a goal through chemists to fit the needs of a finisher."

 Say what????  

Shellac is a natural resinous substance derived from the secretions of the lac insect, found in parts of Southeast Asia and India. It has been used for centuries  

The use of shellac dates back thousands of years, with evidence of its use in ancient India and China. It gained popularity in Europe during the 17th century when it was imported as a decorative finish for furniture, musical instruments, and artwork. 

Shellac became particularly renowned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as a versatile and durable coating. It was widely used in various industries, including woodworking, metal finishing, and even in the production of phonograph records. Shellac's natural properties made it an excellent adhesive, protective coating, and glossy finish.

To obtain shellac, lac insects are cultivated on host trees, such as the varieties found in India and Thailand. The insects secrete a resinous substance, which is collected and processed into different forms. Shellac is available in various grades, ranging from clear and light-colored to darker amber tones.

In addition to its use as a protective and decorative finish, shellac has found applications in food and pharmaceutical industries. It is used as a glaze for candies, a coating for medicines, and a protective coating for fruits.

However, it's worth noting that in recent years, the popularity of shellac has somewhat diminished due to the emergence of synthetic alternatives and changing consumer preferences. Nonetheless, it remains a significant part of cultural heritage and continues to be used in niche applications.

 Chris, I think you need a new source. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.

i find that different substances produce somewhat different results and if you want to understand those differences you need to create samples that you can place side by side while also experimenting with various strengths. Spoiler alert, it is not always appropriate to use the same strength in each section of the piano. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-21-2023 13:22
From: John Pope
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Who here hardens hammers with shellac? I'd like to learn more about that.

------------------------------
John Pope
University of Kentucky School of Music
Lexington, KY
------------------------------

Chris wrote: Based on what exactly? A gut feeling? Some facts or personal facts or experiences would be nice.

Based on decades of making my own mistakes and cleaning up other peoples' messes, you pompous little twit. I have nothing more to say to you on this subject other than I think you are giving bad advice supported by your own made up, self serving "research", If you want to call it that.   

BTW, Blaine, those messes include ones made by  statistically relevant factory voicers.

I might add that how concert voicers  prep concert pianos for the stage is not really that relevant to what we generally do, or are talking about here even, and it would generally be a mistake to copy that "whatever it takes" approach on most, if not all, home instruments.

Those methods are adopted to force instruments to concert readiness by any means necessary, with little or no concern about the life of the hammer, how a hammer develops, how lasting that prep is and assumes constant servicing of the piano for virtually every performance.

Generally speaking, I don't think you should force hammers anywhere, I think you should patiently encourage them, and since Chris seems to be talking to hammers now, he should have an easier time getting through.  The question is, for all of us, can  listen to what the hammer is telling us or are you too busy listening ourselves.

Good luck folks,  

BTW, I've proposed to the 2024 Reno folks a three part class for Reno (can all be taken separately and are all stand alone). This is a more refined and more practical, step by step, approach to what I've offered before 

1. Choosing hammers: a discussion, demonstration, and practical method for understanding why we might choose one hammer over another. Included is a simple method and guide to getting the weight and leverage match right. Should know Stanwood terminology for that part. 
2. How to make your own Excel spreadsheet for achieving and calculating your own smooth strike weight and front weight curves and produce a uniform balance weight.  This is a step by step course after which you will have your own powerful tool. You do need to have some familiarity with Excel, this is not an Excel course. 
3. Fundamentals of Voicing. This is two parts, the first will address hammers that need to be stiffened or hardened. The second part will focus on needle technique. Assumes knowledge of prevoicing protocols, though a quick survey of those protocols will be offered.
   
   
   When all is said and done you'll be able to pick the right hammer of the right weight and match it an action ratio to produce consistent touchweight dynamics every time and voice it properly in whichever direction you're coming from; soft to hard or hard to soft.  

If you'd like to see that sequence offered, let them know. If you prefer that those classes are not offered, or if you think I'm too neurotic or caustic or impatient, then let them know you'd rather not see me there.  But I think I have good information to offer, simple solutions and procedures that get you where you need to go easily and consistently (and I'm not selling a product).

All of this isn't that complicated. it just takes a basic understanding of what you're doing and why, how the procedures you employ relate to that, practice and learning how and what to listen for.  It's what we should be doing every day.  

Then there is "shellac":

shellac

verb

"Varnish" has many different meanings to many people:

a. A liquid that contains a solvent and an oxidizing or evaporating binder and is applied to a surface to produce a hard, transparent finish after evaporation and curing.

Most oil varnishes cure by oxidation and polymerization.  Most lacquer and shellac finishes cure by evaporation, though some oxidative curing takes place due to the polymerization of the resins and oils used.

In the US "varnish" often refers to a polymerized flaxseed (linseed) oil, usualy with some other resins added, that mostly air cures by oxidation, accelerated by the addition of metal catalysts.

In curation and restoration varnish refers to any coating applied over a wood or paint surface to preserve it.

If violins are done with "resins" it's called varnish, not shellac. 

David,

My first reaction was like yours, but then I have a library of violin and french polish references and I looked it up.  Most french polish formulas involve shellac and other resins, though I frequently use it alone (for a finish).

Shellac has a pleasant "hand", in that tool handles with a shellac finish are more pleasant to hold.

When you use it in a touch-up you MUST dilute it with something else.  The traditional violin touch-up formula (1704) is seed lac and gum elemi.  If  you use only shellac for touch up and you try sanding your touch-up the result can be disasterous as the new shellac can be much harder than the original finish and you cannot blend your touch-up spots in.

------------------------------
Blaine Hebert RPT
Duarte CA
(626) 795-5170

Original Message:
Sent: 06-24-2023 17:09
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Chris wrote: "Actually there was never a such a thing as a shellac finish. It was a mixture of different tree resins to achieve a goal through chemists to fit the needs of a finisher."

 Say what????  

Shellac is a natural resinous substance derived from the secretions of the lac insect, found in parts of Southeast Asia and India. It has been used for centuries  

The use of shellac dates back thousands of years, with evidence of its use in ancient India and China. It gained popularity in Europe during the 17th century when it was imported as a decorative finish for furniture, musical instruments, and artwork. 

Shellac became particularly renowned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as a versatile and durable coating. It was widely used in various industries, including woodworking, metal finishing, and even in the production of phonograph records. Shellac's natural properties made it an excellent adhesive, protective coating, and glossy finish.

To obtain shellac, lac insects are cultivated on host trees, such as the varieties found in India and Thailand. The insects secrete a resinous substance, which is collected and processed into different forms. Shellac is available in various grades, ranging from clear and light-colored to darker amber tones.

In addition to its use as a protective and decorative finish, shellac has found applications in food and pharmaceutical industries. It is used as a glaze for candies, a coating for medicines, and a protective coating for fruits.

However, it's worth noting that in recent years, the popularity of shellac has somewhat diminished due to the emergence of synthetic alternatives and changing consumer preferences. Nonetheless, it remains a significant part of cultural heritage and continues to be used in niche applications.

 Chris, I think you need a new source. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-23-2023 20:13
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Original Message:
Sent: 6/23/2023 8:07:00 PM
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: RE: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer."

What I know about french polish is that over long stretches (centuries, even), if it been in good indoor conditions. it has the ability to stretch and shrink with the wood, while maintaining its surface. That's why I assumed that shellac was flexible.

And maybe when we get down to the thickness of the sheathing it encases the fibers with, at that point it wouldn't shatter, it would flex.

Years ago, a client of mine was an engineer. She told me to look for "mechanical properties of organic compounds". The only references I could turn up were via FTP, so I stopped the search. But I didn't stop dreaming about having samples of these resins, in rod form, to answer this question.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 12:17
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Bill:

I think that is exactly right (elasticity) and some years ago I moved to using Pianotek's hammerlac for that very reason. No hardeners, which make refinishing lacquers hard and brittle. It's nice for furniture, not for piano hammers. This product remains rubbery when it cures. I hope Schaff continues to offer it. The product was unique to Pianotek.

I don't know about shellac in this respect except that the flakes certainly are brittle and I imagine the product remains relatively so even after dissolving in alcohol and drying. Again, good for French polishing but I would not use it on a hammer. Might be better than key top, finishing lacquer or sanding sealer though. B72 is also a plastic and I don't know much about it. There's a limit to my willingness to continue experimenting at this point.

I would avoid spraying anything on the surface of a hammer unless you are only trying to harden at the shallowest level, something I don't advocate. Hammers should get progressively stiffer, a progressive density gradient. They should not be stiff on the outside and softer within. That can create an inverted voicing curve where the piano is bright on softer playing (lots of high partial development) and gets darker the more the hammer compresses with increased force. Exactly backwards.

Of course, there's no accounting for taste. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 07:48
From: Bill Ballard
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

David went:

"Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences."

The salient characteristic here would be elasticity. These resins all sheath the fibers, slowing down the hammer felt's elactic reaction with the string (which is having its own elastic reaction). The more rigid the resin, the more the sheathing stands up under the compressive force of that impact. If the resin has some flexibility, it will, with increasingly hard blows, reach a point where it actually bends as a response. Being elastic, it survives, intact, where a more rigid (brittle) resin might have fractured.

I'm suspecting that shellac has more elasticity than the other resins used. (We can learn this from its behavior as a finish coat.) As such, at crash/bang levels of force, it would resist the usual push of the wave envelope's energy from the lower, more resonant partials, up into the higher partials. Resulting in a more musical sound at triple-forte.

I fooled around with shellac some 20 years ago, but not for long enough.

------------------------------
William Ballard RPT
WBPS
Saxtons River VT
802-869-9107

"Our lives contain a thousand springs
and dies if one be gone
Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
should keep in tune so long."
...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
+++++++++++++++++++++

Original Message:
Sent: 06-22-2023 01:41
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing with Shellac

Just remember that the idea of "hardening" hammers is really to stiffen the hammer spring. In so doing you both decrease the amount of energy the hammer absorbs, which then transfers more energy to the string, and you affect timbre both by changing the hammer string contact time and stiffening the very top of the hammer.

In that sense, it doesn't really matter what you use, lacquer, shellac, keytop, or B whatever. They all can be effective in accomplishing that goal. Where you apply it to the hammer, or the part of the hammer it reaches is critical, however. Plus, each substance will have its own interactive characteristics. The reason is likely because of differences in how each substance affects things like spring rate, hysteresis, or general hammer flexibility-and there are differences.

But don't think that any one substance is a panacea. If you don't know how or where to apply it the results can be not what you hoped for or worse.