Pianotech

  I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool.

-------------------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
-------------------------------------------

My recommendation is to find an experienced tone regulator who can be your mentor at the appointment. Voicing takes a lot of practice and experience. This could be a great opportunity to pick up some valuable skills, or you could get into hot water. If you end up going it alone, take your time, continually assess your progress, and don't overdo it. Being able to play the piano well can really help guide you. A C3 can be a fun piano to work. I find them fairly predictable and they respond well to needles. The hammers can be hard but they are not as resistant as some other less-expensive Asian pianos. Have you read "Voice of the Piano" by André Oorebeek? Its a good primer on voicing. http://www.thevoiceofthepiano.com/ On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 9:19 PM, James Kelly wrote: > > > > I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The > hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts > which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if > Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be > enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I > have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool. > > ------------------------------------------- > James Kelly > Pawleys Island SC > 843-325-4357 > ------------------------------------------- > >

Jim, I would start with the angle shot voicing, it's very effective. If that doesn't get you where you want to be, I would go with very light steaming. I have had much access with this method, when done properly. First, the rag used is very important. I use is a thin canvas type material that doesn't hold much water. To much water and you will mess up the hammers. I wring it out almost dry. I then place it across one section, then using the hammer head iron (Pianotek # HHR-70) I make one swipe over each hammer, not just at the striking point. Because the rag is so dry, you get just enough steam to slightly listen the fibers, but not enough to effect the hammer shape in any way. I find it very effective when tradition voicing doesn't get you where you want to be, without spending hours of picking. You then follow up with tradition or angle shot voicing to finish up. Al - High Point, NC On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:19 AM, James Kelly wrote: > > > > I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool. > > ------------------------------------------- > James Kelly > Pawleys Island SC > 843-325-4357 > ------------------------------------------- > >

Disappearing Posts                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

The quick answer, is, no. Angel shot voicing barely scratches the surface of what needs to be done with Yamaha hammers.

David Love produced the most useful post on voicing these and it disappeared from the discussion list. Why I don't know. I tried to delete some terrible posts, to no avail. Still there. Then again there are some I thank the Lord are gone. Who is in control of this discussion?  

Ken Sloane, i.e. Dad, former head tech. at Oberlin, retired, still contractor at OB and teacher at Oberlin Steinway School, always observed Yamahas mike better than Steinways. He didn't get fired for saying so, still teaches at the Steinway School in Oberlin, and works as a contractor to this day at OB part time. In the field, at performance venues, not recording sessions, this tends to be confirmed, as that in most situations where mikes are found, it is on a Yamaha, not a Steinway. Steinway developed most in a time when microphones were not a factor.

Piano is still the greatest solo instrument, with the possible exception of the organ. As a result, it is the premiere concerto instrument. Steinway needed the piano to produce more sound and project itself over the orchestra and fill the hall without a mike. Yamaha, rather, developed at a time when mikes continually were a factor. As a result, its developed constantly with the microphone. This might explain superiority in this area.

The first thing I would do is make determinations based on miking if the case, size of space. The microphone will change the sound, even at the piano, dramatically. Try to get an understanding of what changes take place when the space is filled with people. Everything is different then. It will muffle things.

Shape hammers, which does not mean flatten them, fit hammers to string. Many do not charge for this, and as a result, flatten them. Make them pay to do it right. The C3's have a wide scale, it is going to need quite a bit of stretch, also a voicing consideration. You will need to needle the shoulders in accordance with how much filing you do. With a lot of filing, Yamaha hammers need to be needled to death off crown.

The angel shot voicing is a great finishing procedure.

The steaming idea is not recommended by Yamaha. Yamaha threatened not to fulfill warranty claims when their hammers got steamed at one time. That was back at a seminar, as I recall in 2001 here in Cincinnati. Maybe they changed their mind. Certainly should exercise extreme caution in doing so.

Hope this helps, 

-------------------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-18-2012 09:51
From: Al Guecia
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Jim,

I would start with the angle shot voicing, it's very effective. If that doesn't get you where you want to be, I would go with very light steaming. I have had much access with this method, when done properly. First, the rag used is very important. I use is a thin canvas type material that doesn't hold much water. To much water and you will mess up the hammers. I wring it out almost dry. I then place it across one section, then using the hammer head iron (Pianotek # HHR-70) I make one swipe over each hammer, not just at the striking point. Because the rag is so dry, you get just enough steam to slightly listen the fibers, but not enough to effect the hammer shape in any way. I find it very effective when tradition voicing doesn't get you where you want to be, without spending hours of picking. You then follow up with tradition or angle shot voicing to finish up.

Al -
High Point, NC



On Jan 18, 2012, at 12:19 AM, James Kelly wrote:

>
>
>
> I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool.
>
> -------------------------------------------
> James Kelly
> Pawleys Island SC
> 843-325-4357
> -------------------------------------------
>
>

Dear James,

I agree with Ben.  Angel shot method isn't aggressive enough.   Rock hard hammers need aggressive needling to undue the devastation to the felts resiliency by hot pressing but you don't want to kill the tone either.  For me I would use a wide angle voicing needling directly into the crown and adjoining shoulder area followed by conditioning with a ball pean hammer.  There was recent discussion of this on the voicing thread subject "sweetening".   You can see the method demonstrated by John Foy on Youtube.  Search for "Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood" on the Youtube site.   The tools are available at:

http://www.draftingsteals.com/20046.html
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-ball-peen-hammers/=ej9wrc

We've recently been trying certain types of 78 rpm phono needles.  Will report later on that.   

Will Truitt said in post #38:

"BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!"

The wide angle prevents the needle from damaging deeper fibers and create a gradient of density towards the surface that develops color and opens the tone.

Hope this helps.

David Stanwood

Ben Sloane wrote:

>The quick answer, is, no. Angel shot voicing barely scratches the surface of what needs to be done with >Yamaha hammers. <snip>

James Kelly wrote:

>>   I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool.
>>
>> James Kelly

What kind of holder do you use or fits that compass point tool?

-------------------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 07:08
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Dear James,

I agree with Ben.  Angel shot method isn't aggressive enough.   Rock hard hammers need aggressive needling to undue the devastation to the felts resiliency by hot pressing but you don't want to kill the tone either.  For me I would use a wide angle voicing needling directly into the crown and adjoining shoulder area followed by conditioning with a ball pean hammer.  There was recent discussion of this on the voicing thread subject "sweetening".   You can see the method demonstrated by John Foy on Youtube.  Search for "Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood" on the Youtube site.   The tools are available at:

http://www.draftingsteals.com/20046.html
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-ball-peen-hammers/=ej9wrc

We've recently been trying certain types of 78 rpm phono needles.  Will report later on that.   

Will Truitt said in post #38:

"BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!"

The wide angle prevents the needle from damaging deeper fibers and create a gradient of density towards the surface that develops color and opens the tone.

Hope this helps.

David Stanwood

Ben Sloane wrote:

>The quick answer, is, no. Angel shot voicing barely scratches the surface of what needs to be done with >Yamaha hammers. <snip>

James Kelly wrote:

>>   I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool.
>>
>> James Kelly

Hi David,

I make my own custom holders so I asked Boaz Kirschenbaum and he recommends graver tool handles on Amazon or go to Rio Grande supply.  Here's a source:

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Quick-Change-Manual-Handle-with-Three-Tool-Holders/118673?pos=2

David Stanwood


Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 09:51
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

What kind of holder do you use or fits that compass point tool?

David Love 


Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 07:08
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Dear James,

I agree with Ben.  Angel shot method isn't aggressive enough.   Rock hard hammers need aggressive needling to undue the devastation to the felts resiliency by hot pressing but you don't want to kill the tone either.  For me I would use a wide angle voicing needling directly into the crown and adjoining shoulder area followed by conditioning with a ball pean hammer.  <snip>

Thanks. 

So what's the difference between this and just using, say, a larger needle in a conventional voicing tool which is cut to the length of the desired penetration depth followed by a settling of the felt?  I mean if the use of the compass point is to control the depth of penetration, primarily, why not just do the same thing with conventional needles?

-------------------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2012 08:52
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Hi David,

I make my own custom holders so I asked Boaz Kirschenbaum and he recommends graver tool handles on Amazon or go to Rio Grande supply.  Here's a source:

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Quick-Change-Manual-Handle-with-Three-Tool-Holders/118673?pos=2

David Stanwood


Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 09:51
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

What kind of holder do you use or fits that compass point tool?

David Love 


Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 07:08
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Dear James,

I agree with Ben.  Angel shot method isn't aggressive enough.   Rock hard hammers need aggressive needling to undue the devastation to the felts resiliency by hot pressing but you don't want to kill the tone either.  For me I would use a wide angle voicing needling directly into the crown and adjoining shoulder area followed by conditioning with a ball pean hammer.  <snip>

Hi David L,

Good question.  The wide angle creates gradation of density through the depth of penetration more than a straight needle.   This is what I like to call the Gradient Zone or the Dolge Model.  The ideal depth of this zone will vary with hammer weight.   Thinner zone for heavier hammers.   The wide angle needle is fabulous for opening up a warm round pianissimo tone and creating an even gradation into the harder deeper layers.   The thinner needle in my opinion are not aggressive enough at the surface for these difficult to voice "surface hard" hammers.  

David Stanwood

"The art in hammer making has ever been to obtain a solid, firm foundation, graduating in softness and elasticity toward the top surface, which latter has to be silky and elastic in order to produce a mild, soft tone for pianissimo playing, but with sufficient resistance  back of it to permit the hard blow of fortissimo playing."

Alfred Dolge 1911


Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2012 09:57
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Thanks. 

So what's the difference between this and just using, say, a larger needle in a conventional voicing tool which is cut to the length of the desired penetration depth followed by a settling of the felt?  I mean if the use of the compass point is to control the depth of penetration, primarily, why not just do the same thing with conventional needles?

David Love RPT

Following up on this thread I purchased some of these compass points (at the source the David Stanwood suggested) and used them in a pin vise style voicing tool (see attachment).  Pictured with an old Steinway with hammers worn down to the core and producing a fairly awful sound (as you might imagine).  I did employ this technique on these hammers and was pleasantly surprised at the effectiveness and how quickly it was accomplished. Comparing using the ball pein hammer versus the back end of the voicing tool as my felt setter I quickly abandoned the use of the ball pein hammer as the voicing tool did the job just as well without switching tools and with some better control.  I have since used the method on other difficult hammers and can report that it is quite effective and predictable.

I've used this particular type of voicing tool for single needle applications (I believe I got it from Pianotek catalogue number VT-1P) but it serves perfectly as both holder and felt setter for these compass points.    

Good tip.

-------------------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2012 10:55
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Hi David L,

Good question.  The wide angle creates gradation of density through the depth of penetration more than a straight needle.   This is what I like to call the Gradient Zone or the Dolge Model.  The ideal depth of this zone will vary with hammer weight.   Thinner zone for heavier hammers.   The wide angle needle is fabulous for opening up a warm round pianissimo tone and creating an even gradation into the harder deeper layers.   The thinner needle in my opinion are not aggressive enough at the surface for these difficult to voice "surface hard" hammers.  

David Stanwood

"The art in hammer making has ever been to obtain a solid, firm foundation, graduating in softness and elasticity toward the top surface, which latter has to be silky and elastic in order to produce a mild, soft tone for pianissimo playing, but with sufficient resistance  back of it to permit the hard blow of fortissimo playing."

Alfred Dolge 1911


Original Message:
Sent: 01-26-2012 09:57
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Thanks. 

So what's the difference between this and just using, say, a larger needle in a conventional voicing tool which is cut to the length of the desired penetration depth followed by a settling of the felt?  I mean if the use of the compass point is to control the depth of penetration, primarily, why not just do the same thing with conventional needles?

David Love RPT

Thanks for the followup, David. Question: does this point configuration allow for many less stabs, or is it just more effective with the same number of stabs? I assume your use of the word "quickly" means fewer stabs and better, more controllable results. I, too, recommend the Pianotek tool holder for single needle work, but mine looks like a black plastic screwdriver handle --- inexpensive and functional. Did you do any deep needling prep work before using the compass point needle? I assume not. Cheers and hope to see many of you at WestPac II NG On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:25 PM, David Love wrote: > > > > Following up on this thread I purchased some of these compass points (at > the source the David Stanwood suggested) and used them in a pin vise style > voicing tool (see attachment). Pictured with an old Steinway with hammers > worn down to the core and producing a fairly awful sound (as you might > imagine). I did employ this technique on these hammers and was pleasantly > surprised at the effectiveness and how quickly it was accomplished. > Comparing using the ball pein hammer versus the back end of the voicing > tool as my felt setter I quickly abandoned the use of the ball pein hammer > as the voicing tool did the job just as well without switching tools and > with some better control. I have since used the method on other difficult > hammers and can report that it is quite effective and predictable. > > I've used this particular type of voicing tool for single needle > applications (I believe I got it from Pianotek catalogue number VT-1P) but > it serves perfectly as both holder and felt setter for these compass points. > > Good tip. > > ------------------------------------------- > David Love RPT > www.davidlovepianos.com > davidlovepianos@comcast.net > 415 407 8320 > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > Original Message: > Sent: 01-26-2012 10:55 > From: David Stanwood > Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3 > > Hi David L, > > Good question. The wide angle creates gradation of density through the > depth of penetration more than a straight needle. This is what I like to > call the Gradient Zone or the Dolge Model. The ideal depth of this zone > will vary with hammer weight. Thinner zone for heavier hammers. The > wide angle needle is fabulous for opening up a warm round pianissimo tone > and creating an even gradation into the harder deeper layers. The thinner > needle in my opinion are not aggressive enough at the surface for these > difficult to voice "surface hard" hammers. > > David Stanwood > > "The art in hammer making has ever been to obtain a solid, firm > foundation, graduating in softness and elasticity toward the top surface, > which latter has to be silky and elastic in order to produce a mild, soft > tone for pianissimo playing, but with sufficient resistance back of it to > permit the hard blow of fortissimo playing." > > Alfred Dolge 1911 > > > Original Message: > Sent: 01-26-2012 09:57 > From: David Love > Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3 > > Thanks. > > So what's the difference between this and just using, say, a larger > needle in a conventional voicing tool which is cut to the length of the > desired penetration depth followed by a settling of the felt? I mean if > the use of the compass point is to control the depth of penetration, > primarily, why not just do the same thing with conventional needles? > > David Love RPT > > > > > > > >

-------------------------------------------
Thomas Driscoll
Marlboro MA
508-485-0369
-------------------------------------------
I'm also having good results with this method.
It's easy enough to make one yourself with this chuck:

Search for 1/4" mini keyless chuck.
 They cost about 8 bucks +shipping
and find a handle of sorts. I assembled some of these tools with the " Peen" built in.


I made up 10 of these holders and placed on ebay but I'll consider it a "freeware" design for anyone to copy
for their own use.The price of the handle is the variable,but one can be made for around $20-$25.

7 left 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300690613796?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649


Best to all,
Tom D.


Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 09:51
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

What kind of holder do you use or fits that compass point tool?

-------------------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 07:08
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Dear James,

I agree with Ben.  Angel shot method isn't aggressive enough.   Rock hard hammers need aggressive needling to undue the devastation to the felts resiliency by hot pressing but you don't want to kill the tone either.  For me I would use a wide angle voicing needling directly into the crown and adjoining shoulder area followed by conditioning with a ball pean hammer.  There was recent discussion of this on the voicing thread subject "sweetening".   You can see the method demonstrated by John Foy on Youtube.  Search for "Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood" on the Youtube site.   The tools are available at:

http://www.draftingsteals.com/20046.html
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-ball-peen-hammers/=ej9wrc

We've recently been trying certain types of 78 rpm phono needles.  Will report later on that.   

Will Truitt said in post #38:

"BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!"

The wide angle prevents the needle from damaging deeper fibers and create a gradient of density towards the surface that develops color and opens the tone.

Hope this helps.

David Stanwood

Ben Sloane wrote:

>The quick answer, is, no. Angel shot voicing barely scratches the surface of what needs to be done with >Yamaha hammers. <snip>

James Kelly wrote:

>>   I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool.
>>
>> James Kelly

-------------------------------------------
William Truitt
Bridgewater NH
603-744-2277
-------------------------------------------
It looks slicker than snot and the cat's meow.  Why have 2 tools when you only need one?  It seems worth the dollar to me. 

Will Truitt





Original Message:
Sent: 04-04-2012 11:24
From: Thomas Driscoll
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3



-------------------------------------------
Thomas Driscoll
Marlboro MA
508-485-0369
-------------------------------------------
I'm also having good results with this method.
It's easy enough to make one yourself with this chuck:

Search for 1/4" mini keyless chuck.
 They cost about 8 bucks +shipping
and find a handle of sorts. I assembled some of these tools with the " Peen" built in.


I made up 10 of these holders and placed on ebay but I'll consider it a "freeware" design for anyone to copy
for their own use.The price of the handle is the variable,but one can be made for around $20-$25.

7 left 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300690613796?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649


Best to all,
Tom D.


Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 09:51
From: David Love
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

What kind of holder do you use or fits that compass point tool?

-------------------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 07:08
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Dear James,

I agree with Ben.  Angel shot method isn't aggressive enough.   Rock hard hammers need aggressive needling to undue the devastation to the felts resiliency by hot pressing but you don't want to kill the tone either.  For me I would use a wide angle voicing needling directly into the crown and adjoining shoulder area followed by conditioning with a ball pean hammer.  There was recent discussion of this on the voicing thread subject "sweetening".   You can see the method demonstrated by John Foy on Youtube.  Search for "Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood" on the Youtube site.   The tools are available at:

http://www.draftingsteals.com/20046.html
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-ball-peen-hammers/=ej9wrc

We've recently been trying certain types of 78 rpm phono needles.  Will report later on that.   

Will Truitt said in post #38:

"BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!"

The wide angle prevents the needle from damaging deeper fibers and create a gradient of density towards the surface that develops color and opens the tone.

Hope this helps.

David Stanwood

Ben Sloane wrote:

>The quick answer, is, no. Angel shot voicing barely scratches the surface of what needs to be done with >Yamaha hammers. <snip>

James Kelly wrote:

>>   I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool.
>>
>> James Kelly

What about this Stanwood,

You seem surprisingly unconcerned about things related to keybalance on the subject of hammer filing.

What about hammerweight modification with filing? How much filing is appropriate before causing a touchweight modification that is beyond negligible?

Bill Spurlock observes,

A 1 gm increase in hammer weight causes a 5 - 7 gm increase in both D [downweight] and U [upweight], and vice versa... as original hammers wear and are filed, the touch becomes lighter. An single moderate filing can lighten a hammer by 1/4 gram, and therefore reduce D and U by 1.5 gm. With many filings a hammer can lose over 1 gm in felt, lightening the tough by 5 - 10 gm. [1]

When should filing start being a concern? Or should I assume, how much? Or perhaps I should ask, when do you get reluctant about continual filings, and require a client replace the hammers?

Respectfully,
-------------------------------------------
Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 07:08
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Dear James,

I agree with Ben.  Angel shot method isn't aggressive enough.   Rock hard hammers need aggressive needling to undue the devastation to the felts resiliency by hot pressing but you don't want to kill the tone either.  For me I would use a wide angle voicing needling directly into the crown and adjoining shoulder area followed by conditioning with a ball pean hammer.  There was recent discussion of this on the voicing thread subject "sweetening".   You can see the method demonstrated by John Foy on Youtube.  Search for "Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood" on the Youtube site.   The tools are available at:

http://www.draftingsteals.com/20046.html
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-ball-peen-hammers/=ej9wrc

We've recently been trying certain types of 78 rpm phono needles.  Will report later on that.   

Will Truitt said in post #38:

"BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!"

The wide angle prevents the needle from damaging deeper fibers and create a gradient of density towards the surface that develops color and opens the tone.

Hope this helps.

David Stanwood

Ben Sloane wrote:

>The quick answer, is, no. Angel shot voicing barely scratches the surface of what needs to be done with >Yamaha hammers. <snip>

James Kelly wrote:

>>   I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool.
>>
>> James Kelly

Replace the hammers when you have filed them enough such that any more will change the bore distance to the extent that you can't get a decent regulation, or when the hammers are worn enough and there is insufficent felt remaining over the core and they no longer can be voiced, or if they are otherwise messed up to the point of non functional.  A reduction of weight is an inevitably consequence of taking weight off and if you are concerned about that you can compensate by putting the weight back in with lead solder or in some othe way.  Little binder clips are probably easier. 
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David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
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Original Message:
Sent: 01-28-2012 14:12
From: Benjamin Sloane
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

What about this Stanwood,

You seem surprisingly unconcerned about things related to keybalance on the subject of hammer filing.

What about hammerweight modification with filing? How much filing is appropriate before causing a touchweight modification that is beyond negligible?

Bill Spurlock observes,

A 1 gm increase in hammer weight causes a 5 - 7 gm increase in both D [downweight] and U [upweight], and vice versa... as original hammers wear and are filed, the touch becomes lighter. An single moderate filing can lighten a hammer by 1/4 gram, and therefore reduce D and U by 1.5 gm. With many filings a hammer can lose over 1 gm in felt, lightening the tough by 5 - 10 gm. [1]

When should filing start being a concern? Or should I assume, how much? Or perhaps I should ask, when do you get reluctant about continual filings, and require a client replace the hammers?

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[1] Spurlock, Bill "Grand Action Touchweight," @http://www.spurlocktools.com/HTMLobj-436/Touchwt.pdf

Respectfully,
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Benjamin Sloane
Cincinnati OH
513-257-8480
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Original Message:
Sent: 01-25-2012 07:08
From: David Stanwood
Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

Dear James,

I agree with Ben.  Angel shot method isn't aggressive enough.   Rock hard hammers need aggressive needling to undue the devastation to the felts resiliency by hot pressing but you don't want to kill the tone either.  For me I would use a wide angle voicing needling directly into the crown and adjoining shoulder area followed by conditioning with a ball pean hammer.  There was recent discussion of this on the voicing thread subject "sweetening".   You can see the method demonstrated by John Foy on Youtube.  Search for "Hammer Voicing by David Stanwood" on the Youtube site.   The tools are available at:

http://www.draftingsteals.com/20046.html
http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-ball-peen-hammers/=ej9wrc

We've recently been trying certain types of 78 rpm phono needles.  Will report later on that.   

Will Truitt said in post #38:

"BTW, Boaz Kirshenbaum gave our N. H. chapter a demonstration of this technique on Saturday, on a Steinway B with some older "Renner Rocks".  Very quickly this made a wonderful improvement on the sustain of this instrument, took off the brittle edge, and fleshed out the tone beautifully.  It works, folks!!"

The wide angle prevents the needle from damaging deeper fibers and create a gradient of density towards the surface that develops color and opens the tone.

Hope this helps.

David Stanwood

Ben Sloane wrote:

>The quick answer, is, no. Angel shot voicing barely scratches the surface of what needs to be done with >Yamaha hammers. <snip>

James Kelly wrote:

>>   I was asked to voice a Yamaha C3 down so it is not so bright. The hammers need to be reshaped to remove flat spots and string grooves/cuts which I plan to do on Friday. Felts are rock hard so I am wondering if Angel Shot voicing will be easier and a good way to start or will it not be enough ? Has anyone used this technique on a bright sounding Yamaha . I have all the proper voicing tools including the chopstick tool.
>>
>> James Kelly

Dear Benjamin,

I've replyed to you under a new subject heading on the "Touchweight" discussion list under the subject "Hammer Filing and Touchweight"

David Stanwood

>Sent: 01-28-2012 14:12
>From: Benjamin Sloane
>Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

<snip> 

>What about hammerweight modification with filing? How much filing is appropriate before causing a<snip>

Benjamin Sloane<snip>

Dear List,

I just wanted to change the subject line on this thread because it changed from voicing to a question regarding the effect of hammer weight on touch weight.   After changing the subject line and shifting to the touchweight discussion group I realized that I really left the pianotech realm.   Too much choice here.  I'll just keep the post here instead.  Still getting used to this new system!

David Stanwood

Dear Benjamin,

My belief which I teach and live by is that each component in the action has its own weight specification and that these may be assigned to each component of key/wippen/hammer&shank using the equation of balance.   If a hammer is calibrated to a specified weight and it gets lighter by use and successive filings then the balance weight will become progressively lower.   When the hammer is replaced to its specified weight things come back to normal.       Beyond negligible.......  0.3 gram change in hammer weight is significant.     I would do major filing on new hammers before weight calibrating.   So if hammers get significantly light through use and this becomes an issue just weight off the hammers again.  Add a little weight to them if need be.   Always refer to the designed strike weight.

Hope this helps. 

David Stanwood

>From: Benjamin Sloane
>Subject: Voicing a Yamaha C3

>What about this Stanwood,

>You seem surprisingly unconcerned about things related to keybalance on the subject of hammer filing.

>What about hammerweight modification with filing? How much filing is appropriate before causing a touchweight modification that is beyond negligible?

<snip>

>Respectfully,
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>Benjamin Sloane