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Hand Plane Chatter

  • 1.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 11:29
      |   view attached 
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Question for the wood chomping gurus out there.

I have a hand plane that has a propensity to "chatter" in use. Picture of it is below. The reason the base looks as if it is curved is because it is curved. That's the whole deal with this plane - the base curvature is adjustable to any gentle curve - convex or concave. It's great for planing many wooden things found in piano bellies and jigs to make those things. But it can be a bear when the darn plane wants to chatter.

Obviously, the plane is not a 35 lb. forged steel heavyweight. It is a high quality German plane, but I think the adjustable base feature necessitates a lighter weight. I wonder if the chattering is simply related to it's light-weight design (relatively speaking - the plane is NOT really anything I would call light-weight).

The blade is sharp, the cap iron is mated nicely to the blade and adjusted about 1 mm from the blade edge. I think everything is in order. But the darn thing still chatters up a storm. Any ideas/suggestions?



BTW, I am trying to plane a curved caul, so I can't use a flat plane.

Terry Farrell
Farrell Piano

www.farrellpiano.com
terry@farrellpiano.com


  • 2.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 12:11
      |   view attached 
    From "MICHAEL MORVAN" <keymaestro@verizon.net>

Terry,
    I have a suggestion, you can have me make you a curved caul on our 3 axis CNC router, it will be accurate to within a few thousandths of an inch, any angle, any contour you can dream up can be made. As far as your hand plane, I don't know what to say.    Mike
  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

                
    
                    
    
                        
                        
                    
    
                
    
        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 3.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 12:27 
    From "Alan Barnard" <pianotuner@embarqmail.com>

Is it a grain direction issue, at all?

Alan Barnard
Salem, MO


  • 4.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 13:37 
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Re: Hand Plane ChatterNaw, does it in any direction. Definitely worse if you go against the grain, but even with the grain - chatter, chatter, chatter. I never get a continuos cutting from it.

Terry Farrell
  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 5.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 12:30 
    From Conrad Hoffsommer <hoffsoco@luther.edu>

Farrell wrote:
> Question for the wood chomping gurus out there.
>  
> I have a hand plane that has a propensity to "chatter" in use. 


Not a guru, but...  Take thinner slices? with minimal pressure. on the 
bias.   It looks like the thing would have a propensity to pivot real 
easily on the blade and chatter. I would think, also, that attacking the 
apex or nadir from both directions would eliminate grain orientation 
problems.
My 2?.


-- 
Conrad Hoffsommer, RPT - Keyboard Technician
Luther College, 700 College Dr., Decorah, Iowa 52101-1045
1-(563)-387-1204 // Fax 1-(563)-387-1076


  • 6.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 13:41 
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Any thinner and I'm planing air. Light pressure, heavy pressure, same 
difference.

What do you mean by "on the bias"?

Pivoting - yeah, that's a good point. I wonder if part of it is that often 
so little of the base is in contact with the planed surface - I mean until 
the curve of the wood matches the curve of the base. Maybe it's inherent in 
the design. I just don't know.

Terry Farrell


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 7.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 13:49 
    From "William R. Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>

On the bias:  skew the plane to the workpiece.

Which I don't think you can do with a compass plane unless you have it 
dialed flat.

William R. Monroe

> What do you mean by "on the bias"?
>
> Terry Farrell


  • 8.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-21-2008 01:10 
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>

At 15:41 -0500 20/2/08, Farrell wrote:

>Any thinner and I'm planing air. Light pressure, heavy pressure, 
>same difference.

If I wanted to do what you're doing, I would use a scrub plane with a 
convex blade cutting _across_ the grain and not down into it, at a 
right angle to the direction you are working.  One of the basic rules 
of planing and chiseling is wherever possible to work with the grain 
going uphill ahead of the tool.

Ever since my first woodworking lessons at school, my planes are 
never far from a great lump of beeswax, which is rubbed on the sole 
of the plane, and sometimes also on the workpiece, to ease the work 
and reduce diffiulties to a minimum on pieces that are not naturally 
slippery.

JD


  • 9.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 13:45 
    From "William R. Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>

Terry,

If you are not already, Conrad's point is important:

> I would think, also, that attacking the apex or nadir from both directions 
> would eliminate grain orientation problems.
> My 2?.

> Conrad Hoffsommer, RPT


  • 10.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 13:57 
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Can you explain in other words what that means. Sorry, I'm just not sure....

Thanks.

Terry Farrell


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 11.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 14:06 
    From "William R. Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>

When planing a curve such as this, if you are planing with a concave sole, 
you will plane down from the apex on either side of the workpiece, working 
with the grain in both directions.  Obviously some overlap must occur at the 
apex to finish things off well, but essentially you shouldn't be planing in 
one smooth motion from end to end.  Problems worsen the more convex/concave 
your workpiece gets.

Similarly, if you are planing with a convex sole you will plane into the 
nadir, the bottom of the curve, from both endpoints.

William R. Monroe

> Can you explain in other words what that means. Sorry, I'm just not 
> sure....
>
> Thanks.
>
> Terry Farrell
>
>> If you are not already, Conrad's point is important:
>>
>>> I would think, also, that attacking the apex or nadir from both 
>>> directions would eliminate grain orientation problems.
>>> My 2?.
>>
>>> Conrad Hoffsommer, RPT


  • 12.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 12:37 
    From <johndelmore@suddenlink.net>

Hi TF:
You may get better results if you back off the breaker/cap iron a bit.  Planing "into the hole", as it were, may not give enough clearance with the mostly standard 1 mm.  Never used one of these (it's a beaut, btw, whatever others may think!), but it's (backing off the breaker) worked for me with other obstinate planes.  Obviously, you don't want to move it much...1/32 to 1/16 is a usually recommended range (0.79-1.58 mm).  Another, more radical, option would be to find a thicker blade.

John
---- Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote: 
> Question for the wood chomping gurus out there.
> 
> I have a hand plane that has a propensity to "chatter" in use. Picture of it is below. The reason the base looks as if it is curved is because it is curved. That's the whole deal with this plane - the base curvature is adjustable to any gentle curve - convex or concave. It's great for planing many wooden things found in piano bellies and jigs to make those things. But it can be a bear when the darn plane wants to chatter.
> 
> Obviously, the plane is not a 35 lb. forged steel heavyweight. It is a high quality German plane, but I think the adjustable base feature necessitates a lighter weight. I wonder if the chattering is simply related to it's light-weight design (relatively speaking - the plane is NOT really anything I would call light-weight).
> 
> The blade is sharp, the cap iron is mated nicely to the blade and adjusted about 1 mm from the blade edge. I think everything is in order. But the darn thing still chatters up a storm. Any ideas/suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I am trying to plane a curved caul, so I can't use a flat plane.
> 
> Terry Farrell
> Farrell Piano
> 
> www.farrellpiano.com
> terry@farrellpiano.com


  • 13.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 12:56
      |   view attached 
    From "Fenton Murray" <fmurray@cruzio.com>

Hey Terry,
I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but here goes. The blade is diving some how, a flexible base might cause that. If the sole of the plane is not flat, especially if it's high in the middle, it's going to chatter. So, when you introduce a curve in the sole of the plane, I know it's an outside radius, if your blade isn't perfectly supported by the sole of the plane it's going to try to dive away from the plane and into some nice virgin wood. Also, as you're working the wood into a radius, if the radius becomes tighter than the sole of the plane, it can happen, things are not going to work right and you'll get chatter. Bla, Bla, Bla. I'm just thinking out loud. And you already said your sharp, anything less than that and you get chatter. And I'm giving you a lot of chatter, but then again, I'm a pretty fart smeller. Shoot some slip spay on the sole and try to slow down your strokes and skew it a little. I ain't no expert with hand planes, I've just done my share of screwing up with them.
Fenton
  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

                
    
                    
    
                        
                        
                    
    
                
    
        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 14.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 13:03
      |   view attached 
    From "Fenton Murray" <fmurray@cruzio.com>

2 more cents. Try less blade protrusion. Dead flat your chip breaker so it mates perfectly with your blade. Turn the blade over?
Fenton
  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

                
    
                    
    
                        
                        
                    
    
                
    
        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 15.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 13:07
      |   view attached 
    From "Fenton Murray" <fmurray@cruzio.com>

4 more cents. The sole must be dead flat, I know it's adjustable. Adjust it flat and true up on fine sand paper laid out on flat glass or something similar. Any high spots will show up right away with your first couple passes as witness marks from the sand paper. I know, you want to cut wood, not spend a week tuning up your hand plane.
Fenton
  
    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

                
    
                    
    
                        
                        
                    
    
                
    
        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 16.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-20-2008 13:11 
    From Dave Davis <dave@davispiano.com>

My wife does that, too. Try earplugs.

anon



    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 17.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 13:11 
    From "William R. Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>

Question for the wood chomping gurus out there.

  I have a hand plane that has a propensity to "chatter" in use. 
  Terry Farrell
Don't know that I can offer much, Terry, but these compass planes often have chatter issues.  They are a (designedly) light plane that is generally only capable of rather light passes.  One other thing you might consider (though you probably already have) is a heavier blade.  I can't tell from your photo, but if the stock blade is in the neighborhood of 1/16", you might try upgrading to something like this:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=42607&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1
 or this:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32692&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=1

worth considering,
William R. Monroe

BTW, next Friday I'll be arriving in your neck of the woods for a week.  Flying in to Sarasota for a week of golf, beach, and vacation.


  • 18.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 15:24 
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

> I have a hand plane that has a propensity to "chatter" in use. Picture 
> of it is below. The reason the base looks as if it is curved is because 
> it is curved. That's the whole deal with this plane - the base curvature 
> is adjustable to any gentle curve - convex or concave. It's great for 
> planing many wooden things found in piano bellies and jigs to make those 
> things. But it can be a bear when the darn plane wants to chatter.

That's a pretty steep blade angle, and a very flexible sole 
plate, neither of which you can do much about and a bad 
combination by my relatively inexperienced reckoning. I'd try 
two things. The first is related to my miserable efforts to 
use a curved sole spoke shave years ago. 
Chatterchatterchatter, chunkgougedig. It's been in the drawer 
ever since. Problem was the sole radius was tighter than the 
scoop I was trying to cut, and the thing rocked, at least 
under my lack of control, continually changing the cut angle 
and depth of cut. Try setting the sole curve to a slightly 
larger radius than your caul, so you have to lean on it some 
to get it to cut. If that doesn't work, I'd try grinding the 
iron edge to a shallow curve, to narrow the cut width 
proportional to the amount of support the sole is giving you. 
If that doesn't work and ruins the plane for all time, it 
already isn't working, so...

Ron N


  • 19.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-21-2008 13:29 
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>


    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 20.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-21-2008 13:43
      |   view attached 
    From "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Thanks for all the input on my plane chatter troubles. As you can see from the picture below I have discovered how to achieve much better results. Chatter is not completely gone, but I seem to be able to keep it under control. I think the biggest improvement came from Ron N's advice to make the sole flatter. I had shaped it to my desired radius - and it rocked a fair bit - big mistake. Whereas I didn't shape it flatter than my surface, I did shape it to be fairly flush - maybe just a teeny, tiny bit more concave than my surface. That helped immediately. Then I tried aiming the plane at about a 30 degree angle while planing parallel with the grain, and that seemed to improve things a lot also - seemed to help sheer the wood rather than chop directly at it.

I did move the cap iron back a little bit - that may have helped also, not sure. Someone mentioned flattening some of the structural parts of the plane - that sounds like excellent advice. I haven't gotten to that yet, but I will, and that may improve things further.

Anyway, thanks for all the very instructive input. You folks make "Ten Thumbs Farrell" seem like a partially competent woodworker!

Terry Farrell





    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

                
    
                    
    
                        
                        
                    
    
                
    
        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 21.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Posted 02-20-2008 22:42 
    From Steve Brooks <smbrooks@sprynet.com>

This is a long shot, but it has worked for me. Assuming your plane iron 
is thick enough for the job, chatter can result from the blade not 
having enough support. It looks like your plane is sand cast iron so 
check the area wherever the blade is supported. Sometimes, in sand cast 
frames, a grain or more of sand remains embedded in the iron frame, gets 
by QC, and keeps the plane iron from bedding perfectly flat and 
supported. It only takes one grain of silica to lift the iron slightly 
or bow it even and cause chatter. If you spot any sand sticking up chip 
or grind it down carefully. There's two cents. Are we up to a dime?

-- Steve


  • 22.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2008 05:47 
    From "Paul Chick" <tune4u@fmwildblue.com>

Subject: Re: Hand Plane Chatter


This is a long shot, but it has worked for me. Assuming your plane iron 
is thick enough for the job, chatter can result from the blade not 
having enough support. It looks like your plane is sand cast iron so 
check the area wherever the blade is supported. Sometimes, in sand cast 
frames, a grain or more of sand remains embedded in the iron frame, gets 
by QC, and keeps the plane iron from bedding perfectly flat and 
supported. It only takes one grain of silica to lift the iron slightly 
or bow it even and cause chatter. If you spot any sand sticking up chip 
or grind it down carefully. There's two cents. Are we up to a dime?

-- Steve

While you have it apart, make sure ALL the parts fit tightly together. A
common offender is a small drop of paint. Lap the pieces to check and
correct the fit.  Keep the chip breaker within a half of mm from the cutting
edge.  All pieces must be tight-keep the cut light (then pray to the god of
planes).

Paul C


  • 23.  Hand Plane Chatter Lunar

    Posted 02-21-2008 07:48 
    From "Fenton Murray" <fmurray@cruzio.com>

Terry,
After this eclipse, I'm thinking's your plane might be working now. Give it 
a shot.
Fenton

    
                                                
    
					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
    
                                                
    
                                                    
                                                        
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  • 24.  Hand Plane Chatter

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2008 23:00 
    From Chuck Beck <chuckbeck441@yahoo.com>

You have a rather fierce looking compass plane, but if you are creating the same basic radius repeatedly have you thought about making a dedicated plane for it?  It only takes about 2-3 hours to make a plane from scratch if you have the iron, and even less if you have an old wooden plane that you can chop up a bit.  Besides if you have an old coffin type plane the old irons are wickedly thick at the blood end.   A wooden plane like this or a Krenov-style plane are a joy to use.  
chuckbeck

Chuck Beck Piano Services
1605 W Main St.
Decatur, IL 62522
(217) 620-0842
(309) 451-4652
chuckbeckpianoservices.net


       
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