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acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

  • 1.  acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 12:51
    Word of mouth has it that one keytop dissolved in 8 oz. acetone is a great replacement for lacquer to use in voicing.  Can someone point me to a discussion of the details?  (a) how/where to buy the acetone;  (b) storing the mixture (dissolve container?) - shelf life;  (c) application techniques.  I'm eager to try, but afraid of getting it wrong (Steinway grand, non-Steinway hammers).

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    Kent Busse
    A: Computer.Wiz
    Chicago IL
    708-459-8232
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  • 2.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 13:49
    Hi, Kent!

    The concoction is about right.  Put it in one of the hypo oilers available from one of the supply houses.  Works very fast, just try one drop at a time and see how it behaves. I've also used packing peanuts with acetone as well, if you don't have a keytop handy. (ivory)  Not sure about plastic key tops. Somebody will have more info on that.

    Personally I don't use it. I've heard nice reviews from other techs though. 

    If you need a quick fix, Kent Webb at Steinway told me to just put a couple drops of straight acetone on the crown and it will help for a while.

    Are these hammers really soft?  Need replacing?  Please give more information.

    Best,
    Paul




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    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 3.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 14:06
    There have been different plastics used for keytops over time; I'm not sure that at this point I would put any old key top into acetone and expect consistent results over time.

    Pianotek sells plastic beads for dissolving in acetone for this purpose. Buy a bag of it and you will have a consistent supply for a good long time.

    I am a big believer in plastic in acetone for voicing.

    There are things to be aware of. We bought a new B at the university where I work and a voicing solution was evident right on the crown. The pianist loved the sound of this piano. However, when I did the first hammer filing on the piano, the voicing _completely_ disappeared. It was just like starting over. Except that I knew that they had probably put plastic and keytops in the crown so I did too. The voicing was easily restored after that. Whew!

    Lots of Kents in this thread,

    (the other other Kent)
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    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 14:09
    Make that, they had probably put plastic and acetone in the crown so I did too.

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    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-24-2013 14:56
    I think the keytops they are referring to is the old pyraline keytops, the kind cut out of a sheet for the old pianos, when they were new.
    The stuff that can burst into flame when trying to remove the fronts from keys with a sander.
    It might also be celluloid.

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    John M. Ross
    Ross Piano Service
    Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada
    jrpiano@bellaliant.net


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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 14:10
    Exactly why I don't use it.  There's just not enough time on stage pianos to apply this stuffs.  It's nice if emergency requires, but as you say, you have to start over every time after reshaping hammers...even a little bit. 

    Best to you.
    Paul


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    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 14:12
    Kent

    I did this a couple of times. I cut up a plastic keytop and put it in a pint of acetone. The acetone needs to be fresh. (You should be able to buy acetone in a paint store, or even at Home Depot or Lowes). You will need to shake up the mixture before using it, because the keytop material will sink to the bottom.

    As Paul suggested, use it sparingly.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 8.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-24-2013 14:36
    Okay, I'll stick my neck out.

    I used it once, sparingly, on a few notes, and I totally despised the sound it gave. Spicky, nasty, ticky, harsh, sounding somehow synthetic. Plus I couldn't get them to match the others later no matter what I did.

    The only benefit I've heard for this concoction is that it dries fast, so it was a way to take a lunch break, and then sell a piano when the prospective buyer thought the sound was too woolly.

    Once in, it takes a ton of acetone and soaking and compressed air to get it back out, partially.

    I prefer the sound of lacquer, but personally, I use ultra-blonde shellac flakes in 190 proof ethanol. It has a more temporary effect, the ingredients are far less toxic, and if one has been careful to keep the ethanol tightly capped, and the shellac also tightly capped it has a very long shelf life. I've used some from 7 or 8 years ago and it still dries fine without being gummy.

    Shellac easily dissolves in alcohol, so one can add more alcohol if the note is too bright, and it would draw the shellac further down away from the surface. Or one could wet the strike point and blot it up. If very heavily played, the shellac eventually gets brittle and shatters, so that the wool fibers are once again more free to move. Hence, the effect diminishes instead of increasing, like keytop which seem to gradually harden worse and worse.

    I've theorized that a drop of alcohol (vodka) on the strike point might rejuvenate the shattered shellac, but I haven't had enough opportunities to try it to say it will.

    Anyway, I wish people wouldn't load up hammers with stuff like plastic or Downy fabric softener. Just my opinion, and all that ...

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 14:50
    You waited a whole lunch break? No, no, it works faster than that, and you need to be playing it in while it is drying to avoid the nastiness in the attack sound.

    Acetone and plastic is out there and won't be going away. Might as well learn how to deal with it.

    I doubt in a blind test anyone could distinguish between lacquer and acetone/plastic if both were properly applied.

    Acetone/plastic can be used like lacquer, soaking it into an area of the shoulder.

    But the best use for acetone/plastic seems to be the application of just a bead right at the strike point.

    I put some effort into learning how to use it -- that's all it takes.

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    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 14:56
    Susan, did you pound in the hammer a bit after the chemicals were put on?  That will help the "crash" sound a bit. With action out, of course, put in a voicing block, and use the small voicing hammer in the universal handle, and give them several sound thwacks.  It will calm them down.
    This is ala Andre Oorebek's book and video.   It is a great book to own.

    Doing either: juicing, needling, or whatever, will help when you hit them a few times after any voicing methods. it's only to help us hear what the note will sound after it's been played many times.

    P
    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
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    Original Message


  • 11.  acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-24-2013 15:17
    On 8/24/2013 1:35 PM, Susan Kline wrote: > > Anyway, I wish people wouldn't load up hammers with stuff like > plastic or Downy fabric softener. Just my opinion, and all that ... I agree. People shouldn't be loading up hammers with plastic, fabric softener, lacquer, shellac, collodion, or anything else. They ought to not load up hammers at all. If hammers aren't bright enough to suit, and can't be brought up with very small amounts of very dilute hardeners, or brought down by a reasonable amount of needling, they have the wrong hammers. Ron N


  • 12.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 15:39
    Good point, Ron.

    I try to add as little as possible to any hammer. i hate the outcome or have to try to reverse it.  the back and forth kills the hammers.

    Paul


    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 13.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-24-2013 16:07
    "the back and forth kills the hammers."

    I certainly agree with that.

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    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2013 20:22
    I concur with Ron.  I hammer that requires that kind of hardening is either a poor choice or a poor hammer (or both).

    In answer to the original question about keytop being a replacement for lacquer, it is not.  The use of keytop for stiffening the hammer overall is a not the recommended use.  It has quite a different effect than lacquer when used in that way.  Key top is generally used in "must change the attack fast" situations, such as for concerts and such, a couple of small drops right on the strike point.  Soaking the hammer in keytop, or disolved plastic pellets, will make the hammer rigid and inflexible.  In my view that destroys the hammer.  Lacquer seems less bad for this particular use (in very dilute amounts) and some lacquers are less bad than others. 

    The use of hardeners to compensate for an inadequate hammer (either because of poor quality felt or poor manufacturing or both) is a bad habit we've come to accept because the practice has been promulagated by a major manufacturer and came about originally as compensation for new but poorly made hammer.  It's neither necessary nor desirable, shortens the useful life of the hammer generally and is contrary to the reasons that hammer are made of felt in the first place.  There are alternatives to selecting hammers that require that kind of treatment (though the hammer world is replete with poorly manufatured products).  But best to look into those first. 

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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    If hammers aren't bright enough to suit, and
    can't be brought up with very small amounts of very dilute hardeners, or
    brought down by a reasonable amount of needling, they have the wrong
    hammers.
    Ron N






  • 15.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2013 06:30
    Kent B
    I see a big difference in usage between lacquer solutions and the plastic/acetone solutions. The lacquer solution is much better served when increase of mass to the sound is needed. The plastic/acetone solution is best served when stronger articulation is needed. 
    In other words, both have their place in voicing. The lacquer solution remains much longer and work best when the solution is in the inner and lower portions of the hammer. The plastic/acetone, which is more of a  temporary measure, seems to work best on the crown in very small doses. If dealing with a crown application, I would be starting with a very light solution first. Visually the solution should look opaque with a hint of white. If  your solution is stark white then this will be much too strong for a crown application. You can always add more plastic if the solution is too weak.
    That being said, if increasing the strength of articulation is the desired goal, then apply only a drop or 2  on the crown. And more specifically try applying only on the far right string groove first. This will give just a hint of brightness and clarity, but still allow the remaining part of the hammer to remain as it was. I use this technique when trying to illustrate more contrast with the una chordal voicing.
    Think of using the acetone solution as adding salt to your food. A dash of salt is usually all that is needed to bring out flavor. Same goes with using the plastic/acetone solution. Just a little is usually enough to bring out more clarity in the articulated portion of the tone. 
    And  other way of looking at articulation is try mouthing the consonants "Wa, BA, DA, and TA"  The Wa sound has more of wooshing articulation. The Ba, which I consider to be the ideal for most pianos, has a more solidified sound but with a lot of bounce. Da starts to become more harsh and firm. The TA is extremely harsh and aggressive.  Most times the need is to go from a Wa to Ba sound. But nothing is worse that leap frogging to the TA sound and then needing to work backwards. Thus knowing your solution's strength with predictability will enable more control with voicing solution applications.
    My experience has found that light lacquer solutions seem to work best in the inner core and lower portions of the hammer. The result is a stronger fundamental and mass to the sound. Lighter solutions  (8:1 or thinner) also seem to allow the hammer to continue flexing throughout the hammer/string collision. Of course this is all predicated on what make of hammer felt you are dealing with.  If you are dealing with a brand new set of Steinway hammers,  a very heavy solution of lacquer ( 3:1 for the first application) will be needed. If its a set of Steinway hammers that are several years old and some sprucing up is in order, than a very light solution of 10:1 will all this needed help things along. 

    Plastic/acetone solutions used in the same area tend to bind the felt more and solidify the hammer. Although the first reaction is that the tone has improved, I've found in contrary, the piano tone actually  projects  less. My theory is that the plastic/acetone solution inhibits the flexing of the hammer more than a light lacquer solution. Again, both solutions have their place in voicing but with 2 entirely different results and goals.
    My take on the mysteries of piano tone.

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    Tom Servinsky

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  • 16.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-25-2013 13:57
    Tom, thank you for these great ideas!

    I particularly like the idea of using a voicing solution on only the right groove.

    What you say about the tonal difference between lacquer and keytop confirms my impressions of keytop as having an edgy spicky, ticky sound. No doubt an experienced person would know better than I did how to minimize the worst aspects of this. I agree that keytop shouldn't be used deep in the hammer. From what someone else said about a good voicing disappearing after a hammer filing, if the keytop is used in minimal fashion at the right concentration, it perhaps doesn't penetrate, and hence is more reversible if need be.

    I also agree with the sentiments other people have expressed about not cycling between voicing brighter and softer. Every cycle steals lifespan from the hammers and interferes with the natural gradation of brightness from soft to loud. Ideally, voicing is durable and minimal, with little or no cycling back and forth.

    Using your Wa Ba Da Ta terminology (which makes a lot of sense) one doesn't want to transition from Wa straight to Ta with nothing in between. All the consonants should be there, coming out in order, with only Ta missing or very minor.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    Original Message


  • 17.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-25-2013 15:01
    Just to add a detail about application - the mechanics of putting the solution on the hammer - a truly minimal and focused approach is to dip a wire in the bottle, and lay it on the string groove, as opposed to applying a drop from the needle of the hypo oiler. The extra fine needles can give you much more control than the older fine needles, so this isn't quite as critical if you have the extra fine. But laying the wire in the groove ensures you are only affecting the rest position voicing, not una corda, so this is a great technique for really refined "just a little bit more bite" fussing. And it is easy to do a second application if the first wasn't quite enough. Or one groove at a time, etc.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
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    Original Message


  • 18.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2013 09:51
    A controlled application like that is important.  The small hypo oilers with a fine needle do offer control but the needles are so fine that they eventually clog.

    While the use of keytop in concert situations to sharpen the attack, especially on short notice, can be useful it tends to disrupt the natural gradient that is desirable in piano tone generally and so I would caution using it outside of the concert hall.  I see that tone should develop in two ways:  First as you play with more force the tone should get louder.  Second, as you play with more force you should get more partial developement.  Developing a proper hammer gradient (going from softer on the surface to harder as you go deeper into the hammer) is important for this.  While the physics of the vibrating string will do this naturally for us (more force applied to the string means more partial development) you can disrupt that by putting a few drops of hardener on the top of the hammer.  In more extreme cases, where the lower part of the hammer is unsupported, you can actually get more high partial development when a note is played softely and less upper partial development as you play more loudly.  This happens as the unsupported hammer collapses around the isolated hard spot on the crown and efffectively damps the upper partials that were more evident on softer playing.  You see this often on a Steinway style hammer where someone simply puts a drop or two of hardener on the strike point without first building up the support by applying lacquer underneath the crown where it is needed (see the discussion earlier this year between Fred and me on lacquer voicing).  This can happen with so-called "break in" solutions applied to the crown of the bass hammers as well.  You'll can get this light pingy sound when the note is played softley and then a muffled sound when you play more loudly. 

    Thus, the order of applications is important, always build up the structure of the lower part of the hammer first.  I have generally limited the use of keytop type solutions applied to the crown to concert situations where changes need to be made quickly and where the hammers are genearally already well supported underneath.  Also, the pianissimo level for a concert instruments is something above what one might normally want in, say, a household instrument.  If the tone is too dark in a concert hall then pianoissimo simply won't be heard and so you sometimes need to artificially develop the upper partials for that level of playing in that situation.  Other than that, I don't find it to be a desirable effect. 

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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    Original Message


  • 19.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-27-2013 05:25
    David L.
    Very well put.

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    Tom Servinsky

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    Original Message


  • 20.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-26-2013 15:38
    Hi Tom,

    I appreciate your comment, though I must say my experience has been exactly the opposite: I find the lacquer unstable and not holding while plastic does. Is it because I've worked in a humid climate where lacquer "perms" drop as readily as the hair salon kind? I apply the plastic to the core, allowing it to get closer to the crown depending on how much brightening is needed. At the core it invariably improves power, definition, and projection better than lacquer at any concentration. I've applied lacquer up to and over the crown, but never the plastic because it causes too much contact noise. Hammering the crown affects lacquer much more than the plastic in my experience.

    To use your metaphor, for me the plastic at the core is the soup stock (where the body of the flavor is) and lacquer the salt and pepper.

    Our perspectives may be different because my target tone is that of denser hammers with needled shoulders. Mentally (and aurally), I work the tone from the core (projection) to the surface (brightness), which gives me the right tonal gradient and highest power ceiling. I avoid all hardeners on the surface because they flatten the gradient, but if the hammer is a cottonball, I would soak its outer layers with a lacquer solution before ever applying the plastic to the crown. 

    I find the way you describe tonal characteristics via syllables very interesting. Your syllables, "Wa, BA, DA, and TA," describe brightness and impact noise. The syllables I focus on describe what the bloom sounds like: I prefer "oo," "oh," and even "ah," whereas "ee" or "eh" are nasal and unsatisfying. Those, of course, are not only a function of the hammers, but the whole piano, particularly the belly. What's interesting is combining your consonants with my vowels. You get a deep and dark "Woo", an American vintage grand "Boh", a lighter but beautiful European "Daa", and a nasty and nasal, short-sustained "Tee" or "Teh." Is this the new "dictionary of piano sound"? :-)

    I agree with you that plastic can constrain the felt and suppress projection (but so can lacquer if overapplied). Plastic can also make needling the felt all but impossible if overdone. One has to learn when to stop and not see either lacquer or plastic as a panacea.

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    Mario Igrec
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
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    Original Message


  • 21.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-27-2013 08:03
    Mario
    We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one. Up until about 10 yrs ago I would have fully agreed with your position, in that  plastic/acetone is supreme  to lacquer solutions. But no longer. I too live in the constantly high humid regions of the world ( all year round), and I've found the exact opposite. The lacquer solutions seem to stabilize the felt better through high humidity conditions.
     I do a lot of recording session work these days, along with oodles of concert settings,  and my understanding of tone has gone through a lot of changes. I am now not only more focused on what type of tone I'm striving for,  but more focused on a  voicing technique that promotes better stability over longer periods of time. If I didn't have to put a drop of hardener in any hammer, I would be a much a happier camper. But unfortunately most hammers require some type of assistance and that's just what we have to contend with.
    That being said, my understanding of how to use hardeners has changed dramatically over these past years. First and foremost, knowing solutions and hammers is paramount.  Different thickness of solutions ( and materials) will yield dramatically different results with different types of hammers.
      I'm still amazed at the older Steinway hammer and the beautiful sounds those hammers still make, even after 100 yrs. of play.  Trying to figure out that winning combination  constantly fascinates me.  Fred Drashe told me years ago that Steinway started using lacquer when the factory ran out of shellac. He contends that the Steinway voicers were adding solutions  from day one. Not lacquer but a thinned out shellac solution,  since that's what the factory had available. So history tells me that if anyone can copy this historically proven method of creating the right felt, combined with the right process of making the hammer, combined with good skills from our end of the business, we stand a better chance at making a piano sound great for decades, if not longer. 
      Judging hammers that I've installed over the past 20yrs with different juicing methods, the lacquer application ranks far superior. That's been my experience for what its worth. The plastic/acetone still has a valid application in articulation voicing,  but as a foundational application for new hammers, I have found that it tends to make a hammer sound loud and punchy, and extremely hard.  Of course so does a heavy solution of lacquer. But again, it's the thickness of juicing solution ( and materials) and how  they effect the hammer behavior that I'm  trying to point out.
     I'll make a plug for Ronsen Hammers as Ray is one of few remaining hammers makers still making hammers the old school way. The Weikert felt he uses is made very closely to that of the old Steinway hammers. Ray still does the cold compress process just as was used to do way back when. Embracing that foundation, and being mindful of the long term process of making hammers sound good , we as groomers and voicers of hammers, have a better platform at making a pianos sound better and longer. Knowing this process better and getting first hand knowledge from guys who know a lot more than I has really challenged my way of thinking. Guys like Ray Negron, David Stanwood, Dale Erwin, and now David Love, have all contributed in opening my eyes and ears to a better understanding about this fascinating aspect of our work. 
    Tom Servinsky

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    Original Message


  • 22.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-27-2013 11:12

    For those who would like to use a naturally occurring product try colophonuim or colophon. Several years back a colleague in Europe recommended trying this product and I have found it far more effective, the results more rapid, than any of the aforementioned products.

    Purchased in powder form for ready mixed with alcohol, or buy chunks and use the mortar and pestle to make your own.



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    Dan Silverwood
    www.silverwoodpianos.com
    http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/



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  • 23.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2013 05:06
    Where can these be purchased?  

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    Tom Servinsky

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    Original Message


  • 24.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2013 05:31

    A few questions:

    -Those who carry acetone and plastic, what kind of container are you carrying it in?  I have used a small glass jar in the past, and found it bone dry when I went to use it after a few months of non-use.

    -How are you applying it to the hammers?

    Thanks,
    -------------------------------------------
    Phil Bondi
    Bondi's Piano Service
    239-949-3688
    www.philbondi.com
    phil@philbondi.com
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  • 25.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2013 04:48

     I use old mineral spirits pint size metal containers. Likewise for my lacquer solutions. Never had any issues of drying up. Even with a hypo-oiler with the cap on it, I can keep it a good   month or so without issues.

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    Tom Servinsky

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    Original Message


  • 26.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2013 05:11
    Ok, did a check on colophonuim and I was surprised to learn that this actually rosin, the same materials used by violinist. What carrier solution are you using to make your cocktail.
    Tom Servinsky

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    Tom Servinsky

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    Original Message


  • 27.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-28-2013 12:00
    I Googled "colophon" and found that what I wanted was "colophony", as in "colophony varnish." Then I went to Ebay and searched "colophony" and found multiple offerings, from the USA. Prices are very reasonable.

    I've ordered some colophony from Georgia, powdered. Hopefully it will still be powdered when it arrives, but if the shipping gets it too hot, I may have to break it up and grind it in a pestle. My first try for carrier will be 190 proof ethanol, just like I use for shellac.

    Very nice to have something new to try.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    Original Message


  • 28.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2013 04:54
    Agreed. Please post your results. I  migrate to something that had same positive results and I'm getting ,but without the fumes and more environmentally friendly. 

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    Tom Servinsky

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    Original Message


  • 29.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-29-2013 12:28
    Sure, Tom, I'll let you know. The "colophony", like the shellac and the ethanol,
    sounds really non-toxic and user-friendly. Sticky as all get out, of course.

    Solvents -- we're not only gassing ourselves, we're gassing our customers.
    Non-denatured alcohol (ethanol, from a liquor store) is about as safe as solvents
    get, in the quantities we use for voicing. If it works just as well as the
    nasty stuff like methanol, why not use it instead?

    By the way, I've been keeping the ultra-blonde shellac in old herbal tincture
    dropper bottles, for years on end. The amounts needed are extremely small.
    I keep a hypo-oiler with "vodka" and a 2 oz. dropper bottle of shellac in a
    ziploc bag (within a larger ziploc bag, with teflon powder and VJ lube)) in my kit.
    I can catch a whiff of alcohol from the "vodka" when I open the ziploc bag, but
    the shellac seems well-sealed and just fine.

    I choose bottles from tinctures with little or no color in them. Of course I wash
    the bottles out, but it's hard to get the droppers really clean.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    Original Message


  • 30.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-28-2013 12:58
    Hi Tom,

    Each of us has a different set of experiences, expectations, biases, and technical preferences. I don't think there's only one way to voice a piano. Having said that, I also know what I like as a pianist. The tonal gradient that David Love has talked so much about recently, is the most important characteristic to me. I also want a crisp and clean attack and adequate clarity in ppp, opening up toward enough bite in fff, but without metallic nastiness or distortion. Many pianos that others regard very highly are too muffled for me and leave me fighting for tone. OTOH, many, oh so many pianos are so dreadfully glassy and irritating. 

    I am not as enamored by the original hammers in 100-year old Steinways as many seem to be, but it's hard to judge them after all the wear and loss of resilience. I also dislike lacquered NY hammers, but their success speaks for itself. They are in thousands of pianos that serious artists consider satisfying. They are in thousands of recordings, and who am I to argue against that. And if Steinway recommends applying a small amount of plastic straight on the crown, then that must be a legitimate technique.

    One aspect of plastic that I dislike (OK, dread) is that when you cross a certain threshold (and it's hard to never know when you will reach it), you can't needle the felt anymore and it's over. So I think we agree that for a soft hammer, which requires a lot of stiffening, plastic may reach that threshold too soon and limit your options. Lacquer is certainly more malleable and forgiving, though it can be overdone too. For me there is no substitute for a hammer that sounds good without any hardeners.
     
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    Mario Igrec
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
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    Original Message


  • 31.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2013 04:56
    Bingo, Mario! 

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    Tom Servinsky

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    Original Message


  • 32.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-29-2013 10:21
    I'm not too enamored of the 100-year-old Steinway hammers either, at least in the condition we find them now.  But when you look into the manufacturing practices and the felt that was used at that time there are good reasons believe that they performed extremely well when they were new and for some time after.  At this point in their lives the tension and resilience is gone and mostly they are lumps of dead felt.  Sadly, many new hammers come that way except they are both hard and dead, a bad combination. 

    The density of the original felt on those early Steinway hammers was generally softer than the Weickert felt being produced today but otherwise the felt has much in common.  Producing hammers with similar procedures and practices yields something probably very close to what those hammers sounded like, perhaps with a bit more bite that you would associate with some greater density.  The tensioning of the felt is, of course, key in producing a lively sounding hammer that comes with a high degree of tension.  For that you need felt with a high degree of elasticity, a process that encourages as much stretching of the felt as possible (the felt has to be able to withstand that kind of stressing), along with procedures that don't destroy the tension, namely, the misapplication of heat. 

    That liveliness in a hammer is something that I find is mostly missing in most modern hammers and also missing in a soft hammer that gets lacquered up. 

    The question about what one prefers is important since we do have our different tastes and that is a consideration.  But I think there is more common ground than we might like to admit--tonal relativism is a strong movement these days.  The overall dynamic range is something that we choose in a hammer including the level of clarity at ppp.  BTW, I prefer a fine polishing of the surface of the hammer to gain that clarity rather than the use of keytop solutions.  But I'm not convinced that we are really comparing what is possible, only what is available.  If you have to compare a hard, dead hammer to one that is too soft and requires lacquer, I probably prefer the lacquered hammer.  But it's not a choice I prefer to make or that is necessary.   Many are unaware that there are other options.

    I find lacquered hammers on concert instruments especially problematic.  Usually, the amount of lacquer required to get that style hammer to drive a D pushes it over that threshold that you mention. 


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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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    Original Message


  • 33.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-29-2013 11:09

    Jahn Pianoteile has colophon in powdered form. I believe pianoforte supply has the product but one would have to ask Jurgen to be sure.

    Yes, gum rosin is the common name in the violin/ ballet industry. Alcohol is the carrier; try an old hammer or two to experience the results prior to jumping in the deep end. A little with this product goes a long way.

    As far as hammer sets go, all other things being equal, if the hammers need extensive voicing or hardening, then most likely the incorrect hammer set for the instrument.

    This famous company that soaks hammers in lacquer; why not just have a hammer made with those properties already instead of dumping truckloads of chemicals all over them.



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    Dan Silverwood
    www.silverwoodpianos.com
    http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/



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  • 34.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-29-2013 12:47
    Hi, Dan

    I've ordered colophony from Georgia, one of many versions offered on Ebay. Apparently here
    it's called colophony instead of colophon or colophonium, which may be a German way of
    naming it.

    Do you know of any differences between what Jurgen or Jahn is offering and the domestic
    material? Some of the Ebay stuff looked very unrefined, but some others seem to be good
    quality. We'd have to try to make sure.

    Pianos about to get new hammers offer a really great opportunity to try voicing solutions
    and various means of application, without any risk.

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    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon

    Original Message


  • 35.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Posted 08-30-2013 12:40

    Well, the first upload did not appear; let's try this again...


    Hi Susan,

    I received a complimentary kilo from Europe which is crushed quite fine, similar to icing sugar. To get it this consistency I would think some type of burr grinder similar to an industrial coffee grinder would be used as the chucks are quite hard.

    The colours can vary too; from light yellow which this package is to deep amber. Yes good idea to try on a fresh set of hammers; like I stated earlier use a little to get used to the reaction when the product contacts the felt. A couple of drops in the high treble makes for a big difference with this product.

    As mentioned earlier in one of the postings here, using plastics can be tricky; far less forgiving and not as reversible as other products. Once the fine line is crossed most of the time it is replacement sets....

    But it is also the same with lacquers depending upon which type is being applied; cat lacquer, which would dry very hard and brittle, straight nitro cellulose which has no catalyzing agent and is more the flexible side, or self-seal which is quite soft.

    Best of luck,








  • 36.  RE:acetone and plastic as hammer hardener

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-01-2013 01:14
    Hi David,

    Good points. Regarding the polishing of the felt with very fine grit sandpaper, I've been able to achieve comparable results with a travel iron. The trick is to apply just the right amount of heat, constantly moving the iron. Too much heat deadens the sound and actually reduces the brightness. 

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    Mario Igrec
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
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    Original Message