PianoTech Archive

Expand all | Collapse all

Finding the strike line another method

  • 1.  Finding the strike line another method

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-25-2007 01:00
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    Another example of modified strike line in a Steinway B c1983.  My method is
    somewhat like Dale's except when I have the entire piano in the shop.  When
    I suspect there is a problem I hang all the hammers in the tenor and the
    upper treble section at 130 mm leaving the lower capo section unhung.  Most
    problems in Steinway's are in that section though they can drift into the
    upper section as well.  It's always a good idea to test strike point
    accuracy on the old hammers before you remove them or destring the piano.
    Anyway, after finding the proper strike point for C88 I set the blocks or
    markings on the keybed and test the lowest note in the upper treble to see
    if it is correct.  If it is not (in this case it wasn't) I move the action
    in or out (out in this case) until I find how far it needs to move.  Then I
    work my way up the scale until I find the note which doesn't need to be
    moved.  In this case C7 was fine but F6 need to come in to 127 mm and the
    notes between C7 and F6 progressed uniformly.  I made a mark on the key
    indicating a 3 mm move was necessary on F6 and C7 was ok.  Next I hung
    samples at the end of the lower capo section (C5 and E6) and on G5 and C6 so
    that the samples are fairly evenly spaced through the section.  I secure the
    hammers with only a tiny spot of glue on the top of the shank and don't spin
    the hammer as I slide it on.  That makes it very easy to remove but holds it
    in place so you can test for tone without the hammer rotating on you.  By
    moving the action in and out I found that the 127 mm hanging at F6 needed to
    be continued at E6 and move in to 126 mm at C6.  G5 needed to be moved in
    only to 128 mm.  C5 was perfectly happy at 130 mm.  I made marks on the keys
    to indicate the extent of the move for my samples.  I then removed the
    action from the piano and rehung my samples at the appropriate distance.
    Then I removed and rehung the hammers in the upper capo that needed to be
    moved to form a straight line between C7 and F6 after which I hung the rest
    of the hammers in the lower capo section.  I prefer this method when you
    have the piano in the shop rather than hang the entire section and then move
    all the hammers that need moving.  By sampling you can get a good indication
    of the extent of the curve modification without hanging, removing and then
    rehanging the entire section.  When you have only the action in the shop, it
    is probably better to hang the entire section and then figure on moving once
    you get back to the piano.  A simple flat tray, a straight edge, a heat gun,
    hammer removing pliers and reamer are all you really need to do the job
    quickly on site.  Hanging the hammers with Titebond trim glue to begin with
    will allow you to duplicate the glue collar without resorting to heating up
    a pot of hide glue (does anyone still use that stuff:-)).  It's a hassle,
    but worth the trouble when you hear a smoother tonal transition through the
    capo section.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    www.davidlovepianos.com  
    


  • 2.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-25-2007 07:26
    From "Avery Todd" <ptuner1@gmail.com>
    
    David,
    
    This would also entail moving the backchecks also, wouldn't it? Or can the
    wires
    just be bent to accomodate the strike line "curve".
    
    Avery
    
    On 7/25/07, David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net> wrote:
    >
    >
    > Another example of modified strike line in a Steinway B c1983.  My method
    > is
    > somewhat like Dale's except when I have the entire piano in the
    > shop.  When
    > I suspect there is a problem I hang all the hammers in the tenor and the
    > upper treble section at 130 mm leaving the lower capo section
    > unhung.  Most
    > problems in Steinway's are in that section though they can drift into the
    > upper section as well.  It's always a good idea to test strike point
    > accuracy on the old hammers before you remove them or destring the piano.
    > Anyway, after finding the proper strike point for C88 I set the blocks or
    > markings on the keybed and test the lowest note in the upper treble to see
    > if it is correct.  If it is not (in this case it wasn't) I move the action
    > in or out (out in this case) until I find how far it needs to move.  Then
    > I
    > work my way up the scale until I find the note which doesn't need to be
    > moved.  In this case C7 was fine but F6 need to come in to 127 mm and the
    > notes between C7 and F6 progressed uniformly.  I made a mark on the key
    > indicating a 3 mm move was necessary on F6 and C7 was ok.  Next I hung
    > samples at the end of the lower capo section (C5 and E6) and on G5 and C6
    > so
    > that the samples are fairly evenly spaced through the section.  I secure
    > the
    > hammers with only a tiny spot of glue on the top of the shank and don't
    > spin
    > the hammer as I slide it on.  That makes it very easy to remove but holds
    > it
    > in place so you can test for tone without the hammer rotating on you.  By
    > moving the action in and out I found that the 127 mm hanging at F6 needed
    > to
    > be continued at E6 and move in to 126 mm at C6.  G5 needed to be moved in
    > only to 128 mm.  C5 was perfectly happy at 130 mm.  I made marks on the
    > keys
    > to indicate the extent of the move for my samples.  I then removed the
    > action from the piano and rehung my samples at the appropriate distance.
    > Then I removed and rehung the hammers in the upper capo that needed to be
    > moved to form a straight line between C7 and F6 after which I hung the
    > rest
    > of the hammers in the lower capo section.  I prefer this method when you
    > have the piano in the shop rather than hang the entire section and then
    > move
    > all the hammers that need moving.  By sampling you can get a good
    > indication
    > of the extent of the curve modification without hanging, removing and then
    > rehanging the entire section.  When you have only the action in the shop,
    > it
    > is probably better to hang the entire section and then figure on moving
    > once
    > you get back to the piano.  A simple flat tray, a straight edge, a heat
    > gun,
    > hammer removing pliers and reamer are all you really need to do the job
    > quickly on site.  Hanging the hammers with Titebond trim glue to begin
    > with
    > will allow you to duplicate the glue collar without resorting to heating
    > up
    > a pot of hide glue (does anyone still use that stuff:-)).  It's a hassle,
    > but worth the trouble when you hear a smoother tonal transition through
    > the
    > capo section.
    >
    > David Love
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    >
    >
    


  • 3.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-25-2007 10:34
    From Erwinspiano@aol.com
    
    David
      Nice post
    
        My default Strike line setting for all  Steinway B's is this.  Noted 52 & 
    69 are hung on the old line.   Note 64 is hung 4 mm toward the player.  The 
    rest of the section is hung  in a gentle arc.  Corrections are made later. Or 
    if I have the piano in  shop I do similar set ups.
        Dale
    
    
    
     
    
    
    
    ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
    http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
    


  • 4.  Finding the strike line another method

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-25-2007 13:33
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    Just bend them.
    
     
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    www.davidlovepianos.com 
    
    


  • 5.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-25-2007 15:56
    From "Avery Todd" <ptuner1@gmail.com>
    
    Thanks. That's what I was wondering.
    
    Avery
    
    
    On 7/25/07, David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net> wrote:
    >
    >  Just bend them.
    >
    >
    >
    > David Love
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    >
    > 


  • 6.  Finding the strike line another method

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-25-2007 19:53
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    So you've obviously found some consistency in this requirement.  I guess it
    makes sense since I would presume it's related to the plate design or
    casting.  Looking back, though, I'm not sure I've seen the need in every
    example.  Maybe it's time to go back and visit those pianos.maybe later.  
    
     
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    www.davidlovepianos.com 
    
    


  • 7.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-25-2007 21:21
    From PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones@aol.com>
    
    David:
    
    I've been doing this modification in the strike for many years and have never found either the placement or dimensional changes to be consistent. So measuring every time has been the rule. But I have certainly picked up some measuring tricks from you, thanks!
    
    Paul
    
    "If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)
    
    
    In a message dated 07/25/07 20:56:15 Central Daylight Time, davidlovepianos@comcast.net writes:
    So you’ve obviously found some consistency in this requirement.  I guess it makes sense since I would presume it’s related to the plate design or casting.  Looking back, though, I’m not sure I’ve seen the need in every example.  Maybe it’s time to go back and visit those pianos…maybe later.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    www.davidlovepianos.com 
    


  • 8.  Finding the strike line another method

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-25-2007 22:21
    From erwinspiano@aol.com
    
              Yes  C-64 is almost always within a mm.  Of course there will be exceptions. But whatever formula the Factory boys used to determine the b Scale & strike line was pretty uniformly off in my experience & that goes for the C & D ---JMO though.  
       AS Paul illuded to each one will be slightly different.  Even so, & even with my first best ear setting of the curved hammer strike line, I often move hammers a bit later on to maximize the sound especially when it gets down the brass tacks of final voicing & small improvements show up as refinement progresses. 
       Ah yes I like to go back on many of my past rebuilds.  Sometimes I get to do .....things over? 
      Refine things further? Yes
     Dale
    
    
    So you’ve obviously found some consistency in this requirement.  I guess it makes sense since I would presume it’s related to the plate design or casting.  Looking back, though, I’m not sure I’ve seen the need in every example.  Maybe it’s time to go back and visit those pianos…maybe later.  
    
     
    
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    www.davidlovepianos.com 
    
    
    


  • 9.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-25-2007 23:24
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>
    
    At 6:52 pm -0700 25/7/07, David Love wrote:
    
    >So you?ve obviously found some consistency in this requirement.  I 
    >guess it makes sense since I would presume it?s related to the plate 
    >design or casting.  Looking back, though, I?m not sure I?ve seen the 
    >need in every example.  Maybe it?s time to go back and visit those 
    >pianos?maybe later.
    
    In theory the strike point will be at a certain fraction of the 
    speaking length, say 1/8 in the area under discussion, and since the 
    strike line is the first line drawn in designing a piano, it would be 
    very odd to think it was not drawn straight in the horizontal plane. 
    When you, or Dale, have set up the piano with the curve in the line 
    to get the best tonal result, do you find that the hammer is striking 
    the string at different proportions of the speaking length? 
    Supposing that the strike line is straight, it would take a very 
    large error in the casting to require a difference of 4 mm in the 
    positioning of the hammer-head on the shank.
    
    Am I right in assuming that Steinway's original set-up has the 
    hammer-line straight?  If so, is there a curve in the string height 
    or the hammer bore such that the strike point is on the strike line? 
    I have practically no experience with the 'B' and am fascinated to 
    know why it is that a curve in the hammer gluing should produce the 
    best sound to your ears, which I do not doubt.
    
    JD
    


  • 10.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 09:50
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    >When you, or 
    > Dale, have set up the piano with the curve in the line to get the best 
    > tonal result, do you find that the hammer is striking the string at 
    > different proportions of the speaking length? 
    
    This is a good question. We tend to presume that the piano was 
    designed with a linear progression of strike ratio from the 
    middle of the scale on up, and was built accordingly. But, 
    even assuming that it was actually built to design specs, is a 
    linear progression optimal? What are the determining factors? 
    I haven't done any research along these lines, but I'd think 
    that hammer hardness, weight, and resilience would be a factor 
    in defining the ideal strike point, as would soundboard 
    response, perhaps. The strike line deviations from a straight 
    line happen in the low treble section - the killer octave. 
    Why? Just hanging the hammers where they work best is good 
    enough for getting the job done, but I'd like to know more of 
    the why here. Another interesting thing to look into.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 11.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 10:49
    From "Porritt, David" <dporritt@mail.smu.edu>
    
    I just moved 5 hammers in a killer section of a D.  It has improved (not
    cured) that region some.  Do you think that this weak area of the board
    benefits from some change in the strike ratio?  If the board in this
    case were in good shape would it sound better as designed?  Here's an
    area Dr. Stephen Birkett could study!  
    
    dave
    
    _______________________
    David M. Porritt, RPT
    dporritt@smu.edu
    
    


  • 12.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-26-2007 11:45
    From "Steve Blasyak" <atuneforyou@earthlink.net>
    
    Hey Now,
    
    To David, Dale and all the list.
    
    Is this procedure/phenomenom only present on Steinways?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Stuck in Yamaha M500 land...it could be worse I could have wurlitzers with
    separated pin blocks :-).
    
    Just kidding I have my fair share of nice Grands, and a few Steinways too.
    
    Steve
    
    OC CA.
    
    Pura Vida
    
    
    > [Original Message]
    > From: David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    > To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org>
    > Date: 7/25/2007 12:00:25 AM
    > Subject: Finding the strike line another method
    >
    >       
    > Another example of modified strike line in a Steinway B c1983.  My method
    is
    > somewhat like Dale's except when I have the entire piano in the shop. 
    When
    > I suspect there is a problem I hang all the hammers in the tenor and the
    > upper treble section at 130 mm leaving the lower capo section unhung. 
    Most
    > problems in Steinway's are in that section though they can drift into the
    > upper section as well.  It's always a good idea to test strike point
    > accuracy on the old hammers before you remove them or destring the piano.
    > Anyway, after finding the proper strike point for C88 I set the blocks or
    > markings on the keybed and test the lowest note in the upper treble to see
    > if it is correct.  If it is not (in this case it wasn't) I move the action
    > in or out (out in this case) until I find how far it needs to move.  Then
    I
    > work my way up the scale until I find the note which doesn't need to be
    > moved.  In this case C7 was fine but F6 need to come in to 127 mm and the
    > notes between C7 and F6 progressed uniformly.  I made a mark on the key
    > indicating a 3 mm move was necessary on F6 and C7 was ok.  Next I hung
    > samples at the end of the lower capo section (C5 and E6) and on G5 and C6
    so
    > that the samples are fairly evenly spaced through the section.  I secure
    the
    > hammers with only a tiny spot of glue on the top of the shank and don't
    spin
    > the hammer as I slide it on.  That makes it very easy to remove but holds
    it
    > in place so you can test for tone without the hammer rotating on you.  By
    > moving the action in and out I found that the 127 mm hanging at F6 needed
    to
    > be continued at E6 and move in to 126 mm at C6.  G5 needed to be moved in
    > only to 128 mm.  C5 was perfectly happy at 130 mm.  I made marks on the
    keys
    > to indicate the extent of the move for my samples.  I then removed the
    > action from the piano and rehung my samples at the appropriate distance.
    > Then I removed and rehung the hammers in the upper capo that needed to be
    > moved to form a straight line between C7 and F6 after which I hung the
    rest
    > of the hammers in the lower capo section.  I prefer this method when you
    > have the piano in the shop rather than hang the entire section and then
    move
    > all the hammers that need moving.  By sampling you can get a good
    indication
    > of the extent of the curve modification without hanging, removing and then
    > rehanging the entire section.  When you have only the action in the shop,
    it
    > is probably better to hang the entire section and then figure on moving
    once
    > you get back to the piano.  A simple flat tray, a straight edge, a heat
    gun,
    > hammer removing pliers and reamer are all you really need to do the job
    > quickly on site.  Hanging the hammers with Titebond trim glue to begin
    with
    > will allow you to duplicate the glue collar without resorting to heating
    up
    > a pot of hide glue (does anyone still use that stuff:-)).  It's a hassle,
    > but worth the trouble when you hear a smoother tonal transition through
    the
    > capo section.  
    >
    > David Love
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    > www.davidlovepianos.com  
    


  • 13.  Finding the strike line another method

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2007 21:18
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    Varied hanging distances off the shank center are certainly not a phenomenon
    present on only Steinways.  The curved line I haven't seen much on other
    pianos but I hung a set of hammers on a Boesendorfer recently that required
    gradually increasing the distance through the last capo section.  Always
    good to test the strike point when possible before you remove the old
    hammers.  You can save a lot of work by making notations from the existing
    hammers. 
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    


  • 14.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 03:59
    From PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones@aol.com>
    
    I found this to be necessary on a Boesendorfer 200 several years ago, along with a bore angle in the bass and tenor that nearly matched the string angle. Also, then a Bechstein C which needed altered bore lengths as well as the rake in the last octave. It's all over the place it you look.
    
    Paul
    
    "If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)
    
    
    In a message dated 07/26/07 22:20:06 Central Daylight Time, davidlovepianos@comcast.net writes:
    Varied hanging distances off the shank center are certainly not a phenomenon 
    present on only Steinways.  The curved line I haven't seen much on other 
    pianos but I hung a set of hammers on a Boesendorfer recently that required 
    gradually increasing the distance through the last capo section.  Always 
    good to test the strike point when possible before you remove the old 
    hammers.  You can save a lot of work by making notations from the existing 
    hammers. 
    
    David Love 
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com 
    
    


  • 15.  Finding the strike line another method

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-26-2007 21:54
    From vince mrykalo <madvinmryk@yahoo.com>
    
    I have found a similar case with a 5'8" Knabe where moving the hammers a little toward the V bar made a noticeable improvement in the 5th and 6th octave region.
    
    pianotech-request@ptg.org wrote:   
    
    Hey Now,
    
    To David, Dale and all the list.
    
    Is this procedure/phenomenom only present on Steinways?
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Stuck in Yamaha M500 land...it could be worse I could have wurlitzers with
    separated pin blocks :-).
    
    Just kidding I have my fair share of nice Grands, and a few Steinways too.
    
    Steve
    
    OC CA.
    
    
    
          Vince Mrykalo RPT MPT
      University of Utah
       
      "Min?l t?bb a v?ltoz?s, ann?l nagyobb az ?llandos?g"
       
      The more I learn, the less I know.
       
      www.mrykalopiano.com
    
    
    
    
           
    ---------------------------------
    Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
    


  • 16.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 07:00
    From "Frank Emerson" <pianoguru@earthlink.net>
    
    Many years ago at the Baldwin factory, their engineers discovered that on a
    particular grand model, the sustain was improved in the 6th octave, by what
    they called an "indenting" the hammer line.  This was incorporated into the
    production of this model for decades to follow.  A later generation of
    engineers took a second look at the problem, and judged that it would be
    better to make changes to the plate to maintain the strike points resulting
    from the indented hammer line, but restoring the original straight hammer
    line.
    
    Frank Emerson
    
    
    > [Original Message]
    > From: David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    > To: Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org>
    > Date: 7/26/2007 11:18:05 PM
    > Subject: RE: Finding the strike line another method
    >
    > Varied hanging distances off the shank center are certainly not a
    phenomenon
    > present on only Steinways.  The curved line I haven't seen much on other
    > pianos but I hung a set of hammers on a Boesendorfer recently that
    required
    > gradually increasing the distance through the last capo section.  Always
    > good to test the strike point when possible before you remove the old
    > hammers.  You can save a lot of work by making notations from the existing
    > hammers. 
    >
    > David Love
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    > www.davidlovepianos.com
    >
    > 


  • 17.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 09:01
    From "Steve Blasyak" <atuneforyou@earthlink.net>
    
    Hey Now,
    
    Thanks for all the responses to my inquiry. I'm feeling enlightened this morning. Besides having finally caught up on my list reading yesterday. Now I know that a straight line is not always the best line. It seems I've been five days behind since I got home from the convention + a week vacation.
    
    Now I'm off to my morning M450 what a coincidence huh? Oh well I'm having fun trying to learn my new Verituner program I won at the convention.
    
    C-ya
    
    Steve
    
    OC CA
    
    Pura Vida
    
    
    


  • 18.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 11:02
    From A440A@aol.com
    
    Ron writes:
    
    <<  The strike line deviations from a straight 
    
    line happen in the low treble section - the killer octave. 
    
    Why? Just hanging the hammers where they work best is good 
    
    enough for getting the job done, but I'd like to know more of 
    
    the why here.  >>
    
    Greetings, 
          I would opine that first we have to define "best".  
    Case in point:  A certain hall here has a new Steinway D,(two years old, or 
    so).  It has factory hammers with factory hardening in them.  It is regarded as 
    the best piano in the school.  It sounds very powerful and brilliant to the 
    pianists while they are playing it.  
           There is another D in this school.  It is 40 years old and has a set 
    of Renner Blues in it.  It was always regarded as the lesser piano by the 
    faculty,(though at a Liszt festival two years ago, 50% of the out of town artists 
    chose it).  The pianists feel it is weaker and harder to play than the new 
    one,(gram weights are within 2 grams of each other).  I have voiced this older 
    piano for the maximum range of tone between ppp and FFF. 
       Last year, both pianos were on stage for concerto practise.  Out in the 
    hall, the Renner equipped piano had a much fuller, more powerful sound,while the 
    new piano sounded thin and stringy.  
        While the human ear is more sensitive to the upper frequencies, 
    (basically the range of normal human speech,no surprise), acoustic power is more 
    efficiently carried by lower frequencies.  This is why we can hear the bass drum in 
    a marching band from a mile or more away, but as they pass by us on the 
    street, it is the piccolo that drills its way through our head!  
        What I am wondering is if shortening the strike point is sacrificing some 
    of the lower spectrum in the killer octave notes and lending emphasis to the 
    higher partials, thus making it seem as though the piano has more power to the 
    pianist, (or technician).  Has anybody compared a "bent-line" piano with a 
    straight-line piano in the venue, from farther out from the stage?  
     
    Regards,
    
    Ed Foote RPT 
    http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
    www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html


    **************************************
    Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


  • 19.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 11:59
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    >     What I am wondering is if shortening the strike point is sacrificing some 
    > of the lower spectrum in the killer octave notes and lending emphasis to the 
    > higher partials, thus making it seem as though the piano has more power to the 
    > pianist, (or technician).  Has anybody compared a "bent-line" piano with a 
    > straight-line piano in the venue, from farther out from the stage?  
    >  
    > Regards,
    > 
    > Ed Foote RPT 
    
    That's what makes this profession interesting. A given piano 
    will sound different with a change of venue, and none of them 
    end up in a place that sounds like our shop.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 20.  Finding the strike line another method

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 07-27-2007 11:20
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    It seems like there are two factors (at least) involved in strike point
    issues in the upper area.  First is the amount of power for the least amount
    of extrusion which causes leakage and loss of power especially through the
    capo bar.  A tendency toward weakness or insufficient mass in the
    soundboard/bridge in this area might also contribute to the jangly and
    hollow sound that is produced when the hammer strikes too far away from the
    capo bar--though I'm not sure of the actual mechanics.  Second is finding
    that small area between the nodes which, at the upper end of the piano, is a
    small target indeed.  Striking on the node will kill that particular
    harmonic affecting the timbral balance.  Too large a hammer or too broad a
    strike point on the hammer itself can also contribute to a limited timbral
    range in that area as well.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    


  • 21.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 12:38
    From PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones@aol.com>
    
    David:
    
    Might it also be a different partial set energy carrying into the counterbearing segment (front duplex)? I've found that changing the strike point to achieve the sweet spot also reduces the counterbearing "noise". Or they become one and the same--a sweet spot includes that reduction.
    
    Paul
    
    "If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)
    
    
    In a message dated 07/27/07 12:21:36 Central Daylight Time, davidlovepianos@comcast.net writes:
    It seems like there are two factors (at least) involved in strike point 
    issues in the upper area.  First is the amount of power for the least amount 
    of extrusion which causes leakage and loss of power especially through the 
    capo bar.  A tendency toward weakness or insufficient mass in the 
    soundboard/bridge in this area might also contribute to the jangly and 
    hollow sound that is produced when the hammer strikes too far away from the 
    capo bar--though I'm not sure of the actual mechanics.  Second is finding 
    that small area between the nodes which, at the upper end of the piano, is a 
    small target indeed.  Striking on the node will kill that particular 
    harmonic affecting the timbral balance.  Too large a hammer or too broad a 
    strike point on the hammer itself can also contribute to a limited timbral 
    range in that area as well.   
    
    David Love 
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com 
    
    


  • 22.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 20:12
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > David:
    >  
    > Might it also be a different partial set energy carrying into the 
    > counterbearing segment (front duplex)? I've found that changing the 
    > strike point to achieve the sweet spot also reduces the counterbearing 
    > "noise". Or they become one and the same--a sweet spot includes that 
    > reduction.
    >  
    > Paul
    
    This could very well be the case. I've noticed that the treble 
    strike point target seems to get wider with a more efficient 
    soundboard design, and elimination of a tuned front duplex in 
    favor of a quieter shortened one. I'm not yet sure which of 
    these changes accounts for the difference, but the difference 
    is real.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 23.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-27-2007 21:48
    From PAULREVENKOJONES <paulrevenkojones@aol.com>
    
    The difference really is real. The array of variables is, too. Always something to do, ta-da.
    
    Paul
    
    "If you want to know the truth, stop having opinions" (Chinese fortune cookie)
    
    
    In a message dated 07/27/07 21:12:24 Central Daylight Time, rnossaman@cox.net writes:
    
    > David: 
    >   
    > Might it also be a different partial set energy carrying into the 
    > counterbearing segment (front duplex)? I've found that changing the 
    > strike point to achieve the sweet spot also reduces the counterbearing 
    > "noise". Or they become one and the same--a sweet spot includes that 
    > reduction. 
    >   
    > Paul 
    
    This could very well be the case. I've noticed that the treble 
    strike point target seems to get wider with a more efficient 
    soundboard design, and elimination of a tuned front duplex in 
    favor of a quieter shortened one. I'm not yet sure which of 
    these changes accounts for the difference, but the difference 
    is real. 
    
    Ron N 
    


  • 24.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 07-28-2007 22:17
    From Erwinspiano@aol.com
    
    High Ed
      Goo post.
       As to your quote below. It makes sense to me that if I am  improving the 
    sustain qualities of the killer region ,which, I always am when  executing the 
    strike line change, then it stands to reason that the fundamental  frequencies 
    are getting stronger & thereby projecting a fatter sound  into the hall. 
        I have experienced this phenomenon in the Symphony piano  (Steinway D) 
    here before and after the hammers were first hung & voiced  & then re hung. The 
    principal pianist/others at the college had long  complained about the weak 
    spot & were very impressed at the improvements  after the tweaking. 
        Also I as the attending Concert tech I had a  valuable opportunity to 
    hear the A --B comparisons as did folks familiar with  the instrument. Yes 
    farther out from the stage.  The piano also had a  wonderful presence to the player 
    as well.  Sometimes it's the hall  & sometimes it's the piano. Know what I 
    mean?
      Dale
    
    What I am wondering is if shortening the strike point is sacrificing  some 
    of the lower spectrum in the killer octave notes and lending emphasis  to the 
    higher partials, thus making it seem as though the piano has more  power to 
    the 
    pianist, (or technician).  Has anybody compared a  "bent-line" piano with a 
    straight-line piano in the venue, from  farther out from the stage?  
    
    Regards,
    
    Ed Foote RPT  
    
    
    Dale  Erwin--Piano Restorations
    4721 Parker rd
    Modesto, Ca. 95357
    Shop  209-577-8397
    Web site _http://www.Erwinspiano.com_ (http://www.erwinspiano.com/)  
    Restoration & Sales of
    Steinway &  Sons & other fine pianos.
    " Soundboards by  Design"
    
    
    
    
    ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
    http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
    


  • 25.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 08-01-2007 09:25
    From Michael Spreeman <m_spreeman@hotmail.com>
    
    Most pianos are designed with a straight strike line.  There are a few exceptions, like the early Baldwin SD's which had a curved hammer line in the design. The problems being addressed by altering (or, better thought of as optimizing) the hammer line are construction related, not design related.  There is ample room for human error from the starting point of a straight line drawing to final assembly.  At the foundry, the cope and drag of the sand cast molds shift through the years which causes misalignment between the top and bottom of the casting.  Send the miscast plate to an assembly line where the person grinding, shaping, and locating the Vbar surface is have having a bad day, has old worn patterns which are no longer true, and has to finish 20 plates by 5:00 rather than doing 6 plates correctly, and the stage is set for the Vbar to be most anywhere.  Send the plate off to the rim for installation and have it not located correctly (too far forward, aft, left to right, too high, too low, etc), and it's anyone's guess where the once straight strike line has gone or even if the treble strike line is in the same universe as the design spec.  The problem isn't Steinway specic.  Any piano that has a ground Vbar is subject to error.
     
    RE "hanging treble hammers":  I like to hang samples in the treble by shimming the hammer with a small piece of traveling paper or whatever holds the dry-fitted hammer in place.  Once the action is located in the "best" workable position (which many times is simply the least offensive compromise) sample hammers are dry hung to factory spec begining at #88 and working down every 4th hammer down into the middle of the killer octave.  The remainder of the process is the same as everyone has been talking about; put the action in, make sure the piano is at pitch, and position each hammer by ear, pull the action, glue on the hammers in between the samples, then glue on the samples.  This can be done in the customers home if the piano is not in the shop, and then the action can be taken with the samples back to the shop where the hammers can be hung.  Yes, it results in some funky looking hammer lines, but at least the sound is optimized, and yes, the strike point of each hammer is mathmatically correct.  It is possible to relocate and make the necessary corrections to be able to have a nice straight hammer line when rebuilding, but the time and effort necessary usually cannot be justified financially.  
     
                    Michael C. Spreeman http://www.spreemanpianoinnovations.com
    
    > Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 06:23:41 +0100> To: pianotech@ptg.org> From: JD@Pianomaker.co.uk> Subject: Re: Finding the strike line another method> > At 6:52 pm -0700 25/7/07, David Love wrote:> > >So you?ve obviously found some consistency in this requirement. I > >guess it makes sense since I would presume it?s related to the plate > >design or casting. Looking back, though, I?m not sure I?ve seen the > >need in every example. Maybe it?s time to go back and visit those > >pianos?maybe later.> > In theory the strike point will be at a certain fraction of the > speaking length, say 1/8 in the area under discussion, and since the > strike line is the first line drawn in designing a piano, it would be > very odd to think it was not drawn straight in the horizontal plane. > When you, or Dale, have set up the piano with the curve in the line > to get the best tonal result, do you find that the hammer is striking > the string at different proportions of the speaking length? > Supposing that the strike line is straight, it would take a very > large error in the casting to require a difference of 4 mm in the > positioning of the hammer-head on the shank.> > Am I right in assuming that Steinway's original set-up has the > hammer-line straight? If so, is there a curve in the string height > or the hammer bore such that the strike point is on the strike line? > I have practically no experience with the 'B' and am fascinated to > know why it is that a curve in the hammer gluing should produce the > best sound to your ears, which I do not doubt.> > JD> > 
    _________________________________________________________________
    PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail.
    http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707


  • 26.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 08-01-2007 15:18
    From "Frank Emerson" <pianoguru@earthlink.net>
    
    I would say that ALL pianos are designed with a straight strike line.  It's the first line on a blank sheet of paper (or computer screen), in the design process.  Having said that, someone from this list will try find an example to prove me wrong, but it is not Baldwin.  Somewhere along the way, someone at Baldwin discovered that the sound could be improved by altering the strike point.  Indenting the hammer line was an easy fix.  Sometime later, it was fixed right, by altering the plate and bridge to conform to the "new" strike point and restore the straight hammer line.
    
    Frank Emerson
    
    
    


  • 27.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 08-01-2007 15:43
      |   view attached
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > I would say that ALL pianos are designed with a straight strike line.  
    > It's the first line on a blank sheet of paper (or computer screen), in 
    > the design process.  Having said that, someone from this list will try 
    > find an example to prove me wrong, but it is not Baldwin. 
    
    
    Ok, if you insist, but it is most definitely not a Baldwin.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 28.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 08-01-2007 15:59
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>
    
    At 4:42 pm -0500 1/8/07, Ron Nossaman wrote:
    
    >Ok, if you insist, but it is most definitely not a Baldwin.
    >
    >Ron N
    >
    >Attachment converted: MacMini:bananram.JPG (JPEG/?IC?) (00EA73F7)
    
    Very good!  Do you know when they made that?  Have you any details of 
    the piano?  The Malmsj?s I have dealt with ( only two, I think, in 
    all my time) have been wonderful instruments.  It's the only Swedish 
    make I have come across, but there were one or two excellent Danish 
    makers too.
    
    JD
    


  • 29.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 08-01-2007 16:43
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > Very good!  Do you know when they made that?  Have you any details of 
    > the piano?  
    
    Sorry, I don't. I had something at one time, but it's buried 
    somewhere about three system upgrades back.
    
    
    >The Malmsj?s I have dealt with ( only two, I think, in all 
    > my time) have been wonderful instruments.  It's the only Swedish make I 
    > have come across, but there were one or two excellent Danish makers too.
    > 
    > JD
    
    
    It's almost sort of a neat idea, except for the nightmare 
    action. That continuous bridge has to make for a less than 
    ideal transition between plain and wrapped strings too, I'd think.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 30.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 08-01-2007 16:25
      |   view attached
    From Jurgen Goering <pianoforte@pianofortesupply.com>
    
    Well, the strike like is a bit wavy gravy, but at least the bridge is 
    straight on that Malmsj?!
    
    Jurgen Goering
    Piano Forte Supply
    (250) 754-2440
    info@pianofortesupply.com
    http://www.pianofortesupply.com
    
    
    On Aug 1, 2007, at 14:41, Ron N. wrote:
    >
    >
    > Ok, if you insist, but it is most definitely not a Baldwin.
    >
    > Ron N


  • 31.  Finding the strike line another method

    Posted 08-01-2007 16:34
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > Well, the strike like is a bit wavy gravy, but at least the bridge is 
    > straight on that Malmsj?!
    > 
    > Jurgen Goering
    
    It sure is. Plenty of good beam support there in the killer 
    octave, and a rather nice teardrop shape to the board, much 
    like we do by different methods with bass cutoff and fish.
    
    Ron N