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reducing hammer weight

  • 1.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-08-2008 17:44
    From "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    
    Hi List,
    
    I'd like to know what you think of reducing hammer weight by drilling a 
    small diameter hole (or two) in the molding.  Has anyone done this?  I know 
    the Stanwood technique of doing just that to add weight in the form of lead 
    to the hammer, but haven't heard of just drilling out to reduce weight.
    
    I've a set of hammers that I'd like to reduce the weight on, but I'm pleased 
    with the shape, width, etc. of them.  What would you do??
    
    Thanks,
    William R. Monroe
    


  • 2.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-08-2008 17:56
    From Ron Overs <sec@overspianos.com.au>
    
    William,
    
    We do it, but for balancing a set to conform to a curve, and not for 
    reducing the overall weight of the set.
    
    http://users.tpg.com.au/ronovers/stmarysd9.jpg
    
    Ron O.
    
    
    >I'd like to know what you think of reducing hammer weight by 
    >drilling a small diameter hole (or two) in the molding.  Has anyone 
    >done this?  I know the Stanwood technique of doing just that to add 
    >weight in the form of lead to the hammer, but haven't heard of just 
    >drilling out to reduce weight.
    >
    >I've a set of hammers that I'd like to reduce the weight on, but I'm 
    >pleased with the shape, width, etc. of them.  What would you do??
    >
    >Thanks,
    >William R. Monroe
    
    
    -- 
    OVERS PIANOS - SYDNEY
        Grand Piano Manufacturers
    _______________________
    
    Web http://overspianos.com.au
    mailto:ron@overspianos.com.au
    _______________________
    


  • 3.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-08-2008 18:19
    From "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    
    Hi Ron,
    
    Thanks for the input.  That is basically what I'm doing, but I don't want to 
    add weight to balance things out.  I see from your photo (thanks) that you 
    drill in the tail of the molding.  Just curious why this is your preference.
    
    Thanks,
    William R. Monroe
    
    
    -----
    
    > William,
    >
    > We do it, but for balancing a set to conform to a curve, and not for 
    > reducing the overall weight of the set.
    >
    > http://users.tpg.com.au/ronovers/stmarysd9.jpg
    >
    > Ron O.
    >
    >
    >>I'd like to know what you think of reducing hammer weight by drilling a 
    >>small diameter hole (or two) in the molding. SNIP
    >>Thanks,
    >>William R. Monroe
    


  • 4.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-08-2008 17:58
    From "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    
    I should add that I'd like to reduce the weight by 0.7g - 1.0g.
    
    WRM
    
    
    
    > Hi List,
    >
    > I'd like to know what you think of reducing hammer weight by drilling a 
    > small diameter hole (or two) in the molding.  Has anyone done this?  I 
    > know the Stanwood technique of doing just that to add weight in the form 
    > of lead to the hammer, but haven't heard of just drilling out to reduce 
    > weight.
    >
    > I've a set of hammers that I'd like to reduce the weight on, but I'm 
    > pleased with the shape, width, etc. of them.  What would you do??
    >
    > Thanks,
    > William R. Monroe
    


  • 5.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-08-2008 18:20
    From A440A@aol.com
    
    :
    
    << I've a set of hammers that I'd like to reduce the weight on, but I'm 
    pleased 
    
    with the shape, width, etc., of them.  What would you do?? >>
    
    I would take a scrap piece of wood like the molding, weigh it, and then drill 
    a hole and weigh it again.  I think you will find a negligible difference.  
    Regards,  
    Ed Foote RPT 
    http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
    www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html


    **************
    Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
    (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)


  • 6.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-08-2008 23:46
      |   view attached
    From "Fenton Murray" <fmurray@cruzio.com>
    
    Just that was done on this original set of hammers on this Steinway Upright 
    from 1878. The top couple of octaves in the treble were drilled, my guess 
    weight was not the issue, but rather trying to improve the tone. First time 
    I have seen this, then 2 days later I see the post.
    Fenton
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: <A440A@aol.com>
    To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
    Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 5:20 PM
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    
    > :
    >
    > << I've a set of hammers that I'd like to reduce the weight on, but I'm
    > pleased
    >
    > with the shape, width, etc., of them.  What would you do?? >>
    >
    > I would take a scrap piece of wood like the molding, weigh it, and then 
    > drill
    > a hole and weigh it again.  I think you will find a negligible difference.
    > Regards,
    > Ed Foote RPT
    > http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
    > www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
    >


    **************
    Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a > new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at > StyleList.com.
    > (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) > >


  • 7.  reducing hammer weight

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-08-2008 20:10
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    Try it on one hammer.  I think you'll find the difference is not
    significant.  Taper the hammer from the tail to toward the strike point
    without narrowing the strikepoint width.  You'll be able to take weight off
    more easily that way.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of William Monroe
    Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 4:44 PM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: reducing hammer weight
    
    Hi List,
    
    I'd like to know what you think of reducing hammer weight by drilling a 
    small diameter hole (or two) in the molding.  Has anyone done this?  I know 
    the Stanwood technique of doing just that to add weight in the form of lead 
    to the hammer, but haven't heard of just drilling out to reduce weight.
    
    I've a set of hammers that I'd like to reduce the weight on, but I'm pleased
    
    with the shape, width, etc. of them.  What would you do??
    
    Thanks,
    William R. Monroe
    


  • 8.  reducing hammer weight

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-08-2008 20:15
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    You will not be able to reduce the weight that much by drilling holes.
    Depending on the set and the overall size of the hammer and the density of
    the molding, reducing note 40, for example, by 1 gram requires a full taper
    from end to end on both sides.  You can get proportionately more on larger
    hammers and less on smaller hammers. 
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of William Monroe
    Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 4:58 PM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    I should add that I'd like to reduce the weight by 0.7g - 1.0g.
    
    WRM
    
    
    
    > Hi List,
    >
    > I'd like to know what you think of reducing hammer weight by drilling a 
    > small diameter hole (or two) in the molding.  Has anyone done this?  I 
    > know the Stanwood technique of doing just that to add weight in the form 
    > of lead to the hammer, but haven't heard of just drilling out to reduce 
    > weight.
    >
    > I've a set of hammers that I'd like to reduce the weight on, but I'm 
    > pleased with the shape, width, etc. of them.  What would you do??
    >
    > Thanks,
    > William R. Monroe
    


  • 9.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-08-2008 21:48
    From "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    
    Thanks David (Ron, Ed),
    
    Yes, I've done a couple samples and the difference is fairly small.  An 1/8" 
    hole yields a net reduction in weight of about 1.5g.  Probably my biggest 
    difficulty is that these hammers are already hung.  Waiting for Will Truitts 
    photos.............  ;-]
    
    William R. Monroe
    
    
    
    > You will not be able to reduce the weight that much by drilling holes.
    > Depending on the set and the overall size of the hammer and the density of
    > the molding, reducing note 40, for example, by 1 gram requires a full 
    > taper
    > from end to end on both sides.  You can get proportionately more on larger
    > hammers and less on smaller hammers.
    >
    > David Love
    


  • 10.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 00:35
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>
    
    At 22:47 -0500 8/9/08, William Monroe wrote:
    
    >Yes, I've done a couple samples and the difference is fairly small. 
    >An 1/8" hole yields a net reduction in weight of about 1.5g.
    
    Impossible. A cylinder of 1/8" diameter (radius (0.15875 cm.) 9 mm. 
    long in a wood of relative density 0.8 (such as a heavy maple) will 
    have a mass of 0.057 grams, which you would need a pretty accurate 
    scientific balance to measure.
    
    
    pi * ((0.15875) ^ 2) * 0.9 * 0.8 = 0.057
    
    
    This would make a difference of just over a quarter of a gram at the touch.
    
    To put it another way, 1.5 grams is the mass of a cube of water of 
    side 11.4 mm, and the density of wood is considerably less than that 
    of water.
    
    Any detectable difference achieved by drilling a hole in the moulding 
    will be due to the human imagination rather than to any natural law.
    
    JD
    


  • 11.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 10:23
    From "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    
    Yes JD,
    
    As you (and others) point out, it was not 1.5g.  Forgive my decimal 
    placement.  I DID measure a difference of 0.15g; 10mm thick molding; the 
    molding composition is lead - isn't that what everyone uses now? ;-]
    
    I will double check my measures tomorrow, just for assurance.
    
    William R. Monroe
    
    
    > At 22:47 -0500 8/9/08, William Monroe wrote:
    >
    >>Yes, I've done a couple samples and the difference is fairly small. An 
    >>1/8" hole yields a net reduction in weight of about 1.5g.
    >
    > Impossible. A cylinder of 1/8" diameter (radius (0.15875 cm.) 9 mm. long 
    > in a wood of relative density 0.8 (such as a heavy maple) will have a mass 
    > of 0.057 grams, which you would need a pretty accurate scientific balance 
    > to measure.
    >
    >
    > pi * ((0.15875) ^ 2) * 0.9 * 0.8 = 0.057
    >
    >
    > This would make a difference of just over a quarter of a gram at the 
    > touch.
    >
    > To put it another way, 1.5 grams is the mass of a cube of water of side 
    > 11.4 mm, and the density of wood is considerably less than that of water.
    >
    > Any detectable difference achieved by drilling a hole in the moulding will 
    > be due to the human imagination rather than to any natural law.
    >
    > JD
    


  • 12.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 03:37
    From "Will Truitt" <surfdog@metrocast.net>
    
    Coming, William.  I just got my digital camera a day ago.  It was the
    floggings from Barbara that pushed me over the edge....
    
    Will Truitt
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of William Monroe
    Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:48 PM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    Thanks David (Ron, Ed),
    
    Yes, I've done a couple samples and the difference is fairly small.  An 1/8"
    
    hole yields a net reduction in weight of about 1.5g.  Probably my biggest 
    difficulty is that these hammers are already hung.  Waiting for Will Truitts
    
    photos.............  ;-]
    
    William R. Monroe
    
    
    
    > You will not be able to reduce the weight that much by drilling holes.
    > Depending on the set and the overall size of the hammer and the density of
    > the molding, reducing note 40, for example, by 1 gram requires a full 
    > taper
    > from end to end on both sides.  You can get proportionately more on larger
    > hammers and less on smaller hammers.
    >
    > David Love
    


  • 13.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 06:11
      |   view attached
    From Mark Dierauf <pianotech@nhpianos.com>
    
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  • 14.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 08:03
    From "Fenton Murray" <fmurray@cruzio.com>
    
    1.5 g. would be a huge amount to take off a hammer, you might want to 
    re-check.
    Fenton
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 8:47 PM
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    
    > Thanks David (Ron, Ed),
    >
    > Yes, I've done a couple samples and the difference is fairly small.  An 
    > 1/8" hole yields a net reduction in weight of about 1.5g.  Probably my 
    > biggest difficulty is that these hammers are already hung.  Waiting for 
    > Will Truitts photos.............  ;-]
    >
    > William R. Monroe
    >
    >
    >
    >> You will not be able to reduce the weight that much by drilling holes.
    >> Depending on the set and the overall size of the hammer and the density 
    >> of
    >> the molding, reducing note 40, for example, by 1 gram requires a full 
    >> taper
    >> from end to end on both sides.  You can get proportionately more on 
    >> larger
    >> hammers and less on smaller hammers.
    >>
    >> David Love
    >
    >
    >
    > 
    


  • 15.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-08-2008 22:22
    From "David Nereson" <dnereson@4dv.net>
    
    Yes.  Steinway has done this.  I've seen hammers in the top octave of old Steinway uprights where holes had been drilled by the factory to, I assume, reduce the weight.  What else would they be for if all the others aren't also drilled?  The holes are drilled horizontally thru the molding on the near side (toward the player) of the shank hole.  
        --David Nereson, RPT 


  • 16.  reducing hammer weight

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-09-2008 06:56
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    As JD pointed out, a 1/8" hole will not yield a reduction in weight of
    anything near 1.5 grams.  In the case below I would order the set unbored so
    that you can use the table saw method of reducing the weight with a full end
    to end taper-especially if you are routinely having to remove that much from
    the set that high up.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    www.davidlovepianos.com 
    -----Original Message-----
    
    
    
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of Mark Dierauf
    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 5:11 AM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    1.5 grams from a 1/8" hole? What are the moldings made from? I mostly use
    Steinway hammers and a hole that size barely makes a difference. In the
    example pictured, the more aggressive coving netted me about .3g max, and I
    then had to taper the sides to get the additional .5g that I needed for this
    hammer. I do this freehand on a stationary belt sander. By using the part of
    the sander that curves around the end roller it is possible to hourglass the
    sides of the hammer without removing anything at the crown or making the
    tails so narrow that they chew up the backchecks. The reason I start with
    the coving is that if you try to get a full gram on the beltsander then this
    hourglassing begins to become visually prominent.
    
    - Mark Dierauf
    
    
     
    


  • 17.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 11:22
    From Mark Dierauf <pianotech@nhpianos.com>
    
    Good point and I might have, but most of the hammers in this set needed 
    to have mass added to them, and my table saw setup isn't really as 
    accurate as the sanding for removing smaller amounts of material. But if 
    the whole set needed reducing by a gram then absolutely the saw will get 
    you there faster better cheaper!
    
    - Mark Dierauf
    
    David Love wrote:
    > In the case below I would order the set unbored so
    > that you can use the table saw method of reducing the weight with a full end
    > to end taper-especially if you are routinely having to remove that much from
    > the set that high up.  
    >
    > David Love
    > davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    > www.davidlovepianos.com 
    > -----Original Message-----
    >
    >
    >
    > From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    > Of Mark Dierauf
    > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 5:11 AM
    > To: Pianotech List
    > Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    >
    > 1.5 grams from a 1/8" hole? What are the moldings made from? I mostly use
    > Steinway hammers and a hole that size barely makes a difference. In the
    > example pictured, the more aggressive coving netted me about .3g max, and I
    > then had to taper the sides to get the additional .5g that I needed for this
    > hammer. I do this freehand on a stationary belt sander. By using the part of
    > the sander that curves around the end roller it is possible to hourglass the
    > sides of the hammer without removing anything at the crown or making the
    > tails so narrow that they chew up the backchecks. The reason I start with
    > the coving is that if you try to get a full gram on the beltsander then this
    > hourglassing begins to become visually prominent.
    >
    > - Mark Dierauf
    >
    >
    >  
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >   
    


  • 18.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 11:58
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > Good point and I might have, but most of the hammers in this set needed 
    > to have mass added to them, and my table saw setup isn't really as 
    > accurate as the sanding for removing smaller amounts of material. But if 
    > the whole set needed reducing by a gram then absolutely the saw will get 
    > you there faster better cheaper!
    > 
    > - Mark Dierauf
    
    Until you hit a staple and explode a hammer, for which you 
    have no replacement.
    Ron N
    


  • 19.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 17:46
    From "Will Truitt" <surfdog@metrocast.net>
    
    Ron:
    
    I've been tapering all my hammers on a table saw for 20 plus years and have
    never had a hammer explode.  Am I just lucky?  What am I missing here?
    
    Will Truitt
    
    P. S.  I took a bunch of pictures of my hammer tapering jig for mounted
    hammers today in the shop.  As soon as I can figure out the protocol of
    mailing them to the forum, I will send them - hopefully tonight.
    
    
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of Ron Nossaman
    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 12:58 PM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    
    > Good point and I might have, but most of the hammers in this set needed 
    > to have mass added to them, and my table saw setup isn't really as 
    > accurate as the sanding for removing smaller amounts of material. But if 
    > the whole set needed reducing by a gram then absolutely the saw will get 
    > you there faster better cheaper!
    > 
    > - Mark Dierauf
    
    Until you hit a staple and explode a hammer, for which you 
    have no replacement.
    Ron N
    


  • 20.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 19:14
      |   view attached
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    > Ron:
    > 
    > I've been tapering all my hammers on a table saw for 20 plus years and have
    > never had a hammer explode.  Am I just lucky?  What am I missing here?
    > 
    > Will Truitt
    
    You're missing the staples, apparently. The photo below shows 
    the two possibilities. Either the staple is benignly sheared 
    off flush, or catches in the blade and makes both the saw and 
    the operator jump six inches as the hammer explodes with a 
    resounding WHANGO!!!.
    
    
    > P. S.  I took a bunch of pictures of my hammer tapering jig for mounted
    > hammers today in the shop.  As soon as I can figure out the protocol of
    > mailing them to the forum, I will send them - hopefully tonight.
    
    Either size them down, or send them to files@ptg.org with text 
    saying it's for Pianotech.
    Ron N
    


  • 21.  reducing hammer weight

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2008 19:38
    From erwinspiano@aol.com
    
    ?Ron
    ? I know you love simple solution so This hammer can be ordered with out staples. I never have the staples installed.? If the glue won't do it then the staple won't either. It's less obastacles to avoid when doing any hammer prep. Staples are another wives tale &?myth. JMO. 
    ? Dale
    
    
    
    
    
    > Ron:?
    > > I've been tapering all my hammers on a table saw for 20 plus years and have?
    > never had a hammer explode. Am I just lucky? What am I missing here??
    > > Will Truitt?
    ?
    You're missing the staples, apparently. The photo below shows the two possibilities. Either the staple is benignly sheared off flush, or catches in the blade and makes both the saw and the operator jump six inches as the hammer explodes with a resounding WHANGO!!!.?
    ?
    > P. S. I took a bunch of pictures of my hammer tapering jig for mounted?
    > hammers today in the shop. As soon as I can figure out the protocol of?
    > mailing them to the forum, I will send them - hopefully tonight.?
    ?
    Either size them down, or send them to files@ptg.org with text saying it's for Pianotech.?
    Ron N?
    
    
    
    [Image Removed] 
    


  • 22.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-10-2008 20:17
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    >  Ron
    >   I know you love simple solution so This hammer can be ordered with out 
    > staples. I never have the staples installed.  If the glue won't do it 
    > then the staple won't either. It's less obastacles to avoid when doing 
    > any hammer prep. Staples are another wives tale & myth. JMO.
    >   Dale
    
    I've talked to Ray about this, and he's been reluctant to 
    leave the staples out through the lower half of the set. 
    Haven't exhausted the options yet, so there's still time and 
    alternatives.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 23.  reducing hammer weight

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2008 21:10
    From erwinspiano@aol.com
    
    ? Hey Ron
    ? Perhaps I'm misssing something in the staples dept when it come to muggier climate but I just do not concieve of how they help except in the mental reassurance dept.? Ya know? I've installed dozens o sets with out staples Nary an exploded hammer.? It's the glue ...It's the glue.
    ? Dale
    
    
    > Ron?
    > I know you love simple solution so This hammer can be ordered with out > staples. I never have the staples installed. If the glue won't do it > then the staple won't either. It's less obastacles to avoid when doing > any hammer prep. Staples are another wives tale & myth. JMO.?
    > Dale?
    ?
    I've talked to Ray about this, and he's been reluctant to leave the staples out through the lower half of the set. Haven't exhausted the options yet, so there's still time and alternatives.?
    ?
    Ron N?
    


  • 24.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-10-2008 23:02
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>
    
    At 23:10 -0400 10/9/08, erwinspiano@aol.com wrote:
    
    >Perhaps I'm misssing something in the staples dept when it come to 
    >muggier climate but I just do not concieve of how they help except 
    >in the mental reassurance dept.  Ya know? I've installed dozens o 
    >sets with out staples Nary an exploded hammer.  It's the glue 
    >...It's the glue.
    
    I'm sure you're right, Dale, and by chance I'm just ordering a set of 
    upright hammers from Abel without staples or T-rivets.  It'll be 
    interesting so see if they protest.  There was a time (years ago) 
    when their glue was really not up to the job and I had one set come 
    apart all through the bass and the tenor after a short time in a damp 
    environment.  I can't imagine I was the only customer this happened 
    to and they will have changed by now.  If they protest, I'll know 
    they don't trust their glue!
    
    Anyone who has tried to wrap hamer felt round a moulding will know 
    the superhuman force required.  A child can pull out a staple with a 
    small pair of pliers.
    
    JD
    


  • 25.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 14:11
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>
    
    At 05:55 -0700 9/9/08, David Love wrote:
    
    >As JD pointed out, a 1/8" hole will not yield a reduction in weight of
    >anything near 1.5 grams.  In the case below I would order the set unbored so
    >that you can use the table saw method of reducing the weight with a full end
    >to end taper-especially if you are routinely having to remove that much from
    >the set that high up.
    
    I've always done this with a plane -- more specifically a Stanley No. 
    78 rabbet plane.  Being left-handed, I hold the plane upside down in 
    the palm of my right hand and draw the hammer along the blade about 8 
    times each side.  It is very fast and QUIET and leaves a silky 
    surface with no discoloration of the white felt by the underfelt, 
    neither of which is possible with any sanding or sawing arrangement. 
    Besides, I hate the look of rough hammer sides.  I also hate noisy 
    machines.
    
    Of course the plane needs to be sharp and well-adjusted, as is the 
    nature of planes, and one needs to hold the hammer in a certain way 
    that makes it impossible to have an accident.
    
    Occasionally a small number of hammers in a set will have a wild 
    grain.  In that case I turn the them the other way up and push them 
    into the blade with a lath, but this will only add a minute or two to 
    the whole set and it doesn't often happen.  To taper 88 hammers takes 
    about half an hour (20 seconds per hammer).  The tapering begins at 
    the nose of the moulding and runs straight, as you see on the old 
    Steinway hammers.  It looks very good.
    
    JD
    


  • 26.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 21:05
    From "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    
    Now this is an interesting idea.  As a handplane lover (and user), the idea 
    of using a no.78 (which I have) is appealing.  I keep a stable of planes 
    well tuned and well sharpened at all times.  I think I'll give this one a 
    go.  Thanks, JD.
    
    William R. Monroe
    
    
    >
    > I've always done this with a plane -- more specifically a Stanley No. 78 
    > rabbet plane.  Being left-handed, I hold the plane upside down in the palm 
    > of my right hand and draw the hammer along the blade about 8 times each 
    > side.  It is very fast and QUIET and leaves a silky surface with no 
    > discoloration of the white felt by the underfelt,
    
    SNIP
    >
    > JD
    >
    > 
    


  • 27.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 21:42
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    William Monroe wrote:
    > Now this is an interesting idea.  As a handplane lover (and user), the 
    > idea of using a no.78 (which I have) is appealing.  I keep a stable of 
    > planes well tuned and well sharpened at all times.  I think I'll give 
    > this one a go.  Thanks, JD.
    > 
    > William R. Monroe
    
    I'd be interested how the staple planing goes.
    Ron N
    


  • 28.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 23:05
    From "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    
    I'd guess better than staple sawing?  I'd sooner have to resharpen than blow 
    up a hammer.  Much easier to fix a nick than get a replacement hammer.  I'll 
    let you know  ;-]
    
    WRM
    
    
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Ron Nossaman" <rnossaman@cox.net>
    To: "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:41 PM
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    
    > William Monroe wrote:
    >> Now this is an interesting idea.  As a handplane lover (and user), the 
    >> idea of using a no.78 (which I have) is appealing.  I keep a stable of 
    >> planes well tuned and well sharpened at all times.  I think I'll give 
    >> this one a go.  Thanks, JD.
    >>
    >> William R. Monroe
    >
    > I'd be interested how the staple planing goes.
    > Ron N
    >
    > 
    


  • 29.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 23:27
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    William Monroe wrote:
    > I'd guess better than staple sawing?  I'd sooner have to resharpen than 
    > blow up a hammer.  Much easier to fix a nick than get a replacement 
    > hammer.  I'll let you know  ;-]
    > 
    > WRM
    
    Thanks,
    Ron N
    


  • 30.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-10-2008 00:10
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>
    
    At 22:41 -0500 9/9/08, Ron Nossaman wrote:
    
    >William Monroe wrote:
    >>Now this is an interesting idea.  As a handplane lover (and user), 
    >>the idea of using a no.78 (which I have) is appealing... I keep a 
    >>stable of planes well tuned and well sharpened at all times.
    >
    >I'd be interested how the staple planing goes.
    
    Well the worst that can happen, providing you're asleep on the job, 
    is that you put a little nick in the plane blade and provide yourself 
    with 10 minutes' work resharpening it.  The hammers I use are all 
    T-riveted and not stapled, so it's just a matter of folding back the 
    end(s) if you see a risk.  I have never split a moulding and it's 
    many years since I nicked a plane blade.
    
    JD
    


  • 31.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 08:53
      |   view attached
    From Paul T Williams <pwilliams4@unlnotes.unl.edu>
    
    I doubt the holes were drilled to lessen weight. Rather, more inertia is 
    put forward of the shank, hence improving power and tone.
    
    Paul
    
    
    
    
    "Fenton Murray" <fmurray@cruzio.com> 
    Sent by: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org
    09/09/2008 12:46 AM
    Please respond to
    Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org>
    
    
    To
    "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org>
    cc
    
    Subject
    Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Just that was done on this original set of hammers on this Steinway 
    Upright 
    from 1878. The top couple of octaves in the treble were drilled, my guess 
    weight was not the issue, but rather trying to improve the tone. First 
    time 
    I have seen this, then 2 days later I see the post.
    Fenton
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: <A440A@aol.com>
    To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
    Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 5:20 PM
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    
    > :
    >
    > << I've a set of hammers that I'd like to reduce the weight on, but I'm
    > pleased
    >
    > with the shape, width, etc., of them.  What would you do?? >>
    >
    > I would take a scrap piece of wood like the molding, weigh it, and then 
    > drill
    > a hole and weigh it again.  I think you will find a negligible 
    difference.
    > Regards,
    > Ed Foote RPT
    > http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
    > www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
    >


    **************
    Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a > new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at > StyleList.com.
    > (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) > >


  • 32.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 10:11
    From "Garret Traylor" <hpp@highpointpiano.com>
    
    What? Less weight = more inertia?
    
    Kindest Regards,
    
    Garret 
    
    ---
    
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of Paul T Williams
    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 10:53 AM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
     
    
    
    I doubt the holes were drilled to lessen weight. Rather, more inertia is put
    forward of the shank, hence improving power and tone. 
    
    Paul 
    
    
    
    
    
    "Fenton Murray" <fmurray@cruzio.com> 
    Sent by: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org 
    
    09/09/2008 12:46 AM 
    
    
    Please respond to
    Pianotech List <pianotech@ptg.org>
    
    
    To
    
    "Pianotech List" <pianotech@ptg.org> 
    
    
    cc
    
    	
    
    Subject
    
    Re: reducing hammer weight
    
     
    
    		
    
    
    
    
    Just that was done on this original set of hammers on this Steinway Upright 
    from 1878. The top couple of octaves in the treble were drilled, my guess 
    weight was not the issue, but rather trying to improve the tone. First time 
    I have seen this, then 2 days later I see the post.
    Fenton
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: <A440A@aol.com>
    To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
    Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 5:20 PM
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    
    > :
    >
    > << I've a set of hammers that I'd like to reduce the weight on, but I'm
    > pleased
    >
    > with the shape, width, etc., of them.  What would you do?? >>
    >
    > I would take a scrap piece of wood like the molding, weigh it, and then 
    > drill
    > a hole and weigh it again.  I think you will find a negligible difference.
    > Regards,
    > Ed Foote RPT
    > http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
    > www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
    >


    **************
    Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a > new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at > StyleList.com.
    > (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) > >


  • 33.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 10:48
    From "Nick Gravagne" <gravagnegang@att.net>
    
    Hi William,
    
    Although you haven't stated it explicitly, I am guessing that your reason
    for reducing hammer weight is to change touchweight (to lesson the
    downweight from, say, 58 grams to something like 50 or 52). Is that so?
    
    Perhaps you could supply us with a bit more information. For example:
    
    1) Any idea what your action ratio is? For example, if it is 5 to 1, then
    you would need to remove 1 gram from the hammer in order to reduce the
    downweight by 5 grams, which ties in to JD's (see below) very useful rundown
    of the math.
    
    2) Can we assume that friction is not an issue?
    
    It may be that there are other ways, perhaps in addition to standard hammer
    weight prepping (i.e., side tapering, tailing and coving) that require
    attention in order to "fix" the touchweight.
    
    Drilling holes in hammer moldings in order to insert weights is an entirely
    different thing than drilling to lower weight/mass. However, drilling holes
    in order to adjust tone, e.g., to tone down the "woody effect" of treble
    hammers is something else and at times has merit. 
    
    In addition, our statically determined weight adjustments, i.e., the usual
    downweight/upweight gram tests, is one thing; but the dynamic result of a
    hammer of either more weight or less weight flying toward the strings at
    high velocity is something else again. The dynamic inertial values are a
    function of the static, but are of significantly higher magnitude. 
    
    Regards,
    
    Nick Gravagne, RPT
    Piano Technicians Guild
    Member Society Manufacturing Engineers
    Voice Mail 928-476-4143
     
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    At 22:47 -0500 8/9/08, William Monroe wrote:
    
    >Yes, I've done a couple samples and the difference is fairly small. 
    >An 1/8" hole yields a net reduction in weight of about 1.5g.
    
    JD responds:
    
    Impossible. A cylinder of 1/8" diameter (radius (0.15875 cm.) 9 mm. 
    long in a wood of relative density 0.8 (such as a heavy maple) will 
    have a mass of 0.057 grams, which you would need a pretty accurate 
    scientific balance to measure.
    
    
    pi * ((0.15875) ^ 2) * 0.9 * 0.8 = 0.057
    
    
    This would make a difference of just over a quarter of a gram at the touch.
    
    ...
    
    JD
    


  • 34.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 21:02
    From "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    
    Hi Nick and others,
    
    Silly busy these few days.  I'll try and get more info posted tomorrow 
    afternoon.  Very busy.
    
    William R. Monroe
    
    
    
    > Hi William,
    >
    > Although you haven't stated it explicitly, I am guessing that your reason
    > for reducing hammer weight is to change touchweight (to lesson the
    > downweight from, say, 58 grams to something like 50 or 52). Is that so?
    >
    > Perhaps you could supply us with a bit more information. For example:
    >
    > 1) Any idea what your action ratio is? For example, if it is 5 to 1, then
    > you would need to remove 1 gram from the hammer in order to reduce the
    > downweight by 5 grams, which ties in to JD's (see below) very useful 
    > rundown
    > of the math.
    >
    > 2) Can we assume that friction is not an issue?
    >
    > It may be that there are other ways, perhaps in addition to standard 
    > hammer
    > weight prepping (i.e., side tapering, tailing and coving) that require
    > attention in order to "fix" the touchweight.
    >
    > Drilling holes in hammer moldings in order to insert weights is an 
    > entirely
    > different thing than drilling to lower weight/mass. However, drilling 
    > holes
    > in order to adjust tone, e.g., to tone down the "woody effect" of treble
    > hammers is something else and at times has merit.
    >
    > In addition, our statically determined weight adjustments, i.e., the usual
    > downweight/upweight gram tests, is one thing; but the dynamic result of a
    > hammer of either more weight or less weight flying toward the strings at
    > high velocity is something else again. The dynamic inertial values are a
    > function of the static, but are of significantly higher magnitude.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Nick Gravagne, RPT
    


  • 35.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-10-2008 22:28
    From "William Monroe" <pianotech@a440piano.net>
    
    Hi Nick,
    
    Thanks for the info.  Well, I got the hammer weight down where I want it. 
    Friction was an issue as well.  The scenario is a '50s "S" with six leads in 
    the bass for starters.  Replaced old S/F (15.5mm) with new HSF (17mm knuckle 
    spread) tapering the hammers to bring them down close to around a top-low to 
    1/4 medium Strike Weight Zone.  Action ration was about 5.8, now is about 
    5.2.
    
    Everything else on the action is just refurbished.  Polish key pins, new 
    bushings, rail felts, resurface backchecks, and so on.  Bushings were part 
    of my problem.  The rail pins were .142 on the FR, and .145 at the BR 
    (?!?!).  I ended up using a .143 caul with a relatively loose fit of felt on 
    the FR (brass) and .147 on the BR with a relatively tight fitting felt.  The 
    BR worked out well, but the FR was tighter than I thought.  Once I ironed 
    the felt again, I reweighed and started pulling leads. It still has more 
    than I'd prefer, but it is a budget job and we've really made some 
    improvements.
    
    New Repetitions in the future would help in the friction dept. as well, I'd 
    think.
    
    Also, would you mind expanding upon your last paragraph below??
    
    Thanks,
    William R. Monroe
    
    
    
    > Hi William,
    >
    > Although you haven't stated it explicitly, I am guessing that your reason
    > for reducing hammer weight is to change touchweight (to lesson the
    > downweight from, say, 58 grams to something like 50 or 52). Is that so?
    >
    > Perhaps you could supply us with a bit more information. For example:
    >
    > 1) Any idea what your action ratio is? For example, if it is 5 to 1, then
    > you would need to remove 1 gram from the hammer in order to reduce the
    > downweight by 5 grams, which ties in to JD's (see below) very useful 
    > rundown
    > of the math.
    >
    > 2) Can we assume that friction is not an issue?
    >
    > It may be that there are other ways, perhaps in addition to standard 
    > hammer
    > weight prepping (i.e., side tapering, tailing and coving) that require
    > attention in order to "fix" the touchweight.
    >
    > Drilling holes in hammer moldings in order to insert weights is an 
    > entirely
    > different thing than drilling to lower weight/mass. However, drilling 
    > holes
    > in order to adjust tone, e.g., to tone down the "woody effect" of treble
    > hammers is something else and at times has merit.
    >
    > In addition, our statically determined weight adjustments, i.e., the usual
    > downweight/upweight gram tests, is one thing; but the dynamic result of a
    > hammer of either more weight or less weight flying toward the strings at
    > high velocity is something else again. The dynamic inertial values are a
    > function of the static, but are of significantly higher magnitude.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Nick Gravagne, RPT
    


  • 36.  reducing hammer weight

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-09-2008 18:43
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    Has that actually happened to you?  I've hit staples, or the edges of them,
    on several occasions without any adverse effect.  Abel hammers (which I
    don't use that often) or notorious for large staples the extend out to the
    edges of the hammer.  It's almost impossible not to hit them when doing a
    full taper which tends to push them away from the hammer a bit.  I just push
    them back down and there seems to be no real consequence for the stability
    of the hammer.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    
    Until you hit a staple and explode a hammer, for which you 
    have no replacement.
    Ron N
    


  • 37.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 19:48
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    David Love wrote:
    > Has that actually happened to you?  
    
    Sure has, maybe a half dozen times total, with varying degrees 
    of damage.
    
    
    >I've hit staples, or the edges of them,
    > on several occasions without any adverse effect.  Abel hammers (which I
    > don't use that often) or notorious for large staples the extend out to the
    > edges of the hammer.  It's almost impossible not to hit them when doing a
    > full taper which tends to push them away from the hammer a bit.  I just push
    > them back down and there seems to be no real consequence for the stability
    > of the hammer.
    
    I might hit six or seven staples through multiple sets with no 
    problem. It's the odd one that isn't not a problem that's the 
    problem.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 38.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 20:32
    From "Will Truitt" <surfdog@metrocast.net>
    
    I have certainly hit staples tapering sets (including many Abels) - no way
    to avoid it on some - but never a problem.  It just cuts through the staple
    and that is that.  I wonder if you were feeding too fast.  There is a just
    right speed to push the hammer into the blade.  
    
    Now I understand why you don't want to freehand your tapering....
    
    Will
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of Ron Nossaman
    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:48 PM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    David Love wrote:
    > Has that actually happened to you?  
    
    Sure has, maybe a half dozen times total, with varying degrees 
    of damage.
    
    
    >I've hit staples, or the edges of them,
    > on several occasions without any adverse effect.  Abel hammers (which I
    > don't use that often) or notorious for large staples the extend out to the
    > edges of the hammer.  It's almost impossible not to hit them when doing a
    > full taper which tends to push them away from the hammer a bit.  I just
    push
    > them back down and there seems to be no real consequence for the stability
    > of the hammer.
    
    I might hit six or seven staples through multiple sets with no 
    problem. It's the odd one that isn't not a problem that's the 
    problem.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 39.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 20:56
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    Will Truitt wrote:
    > I have certainly hit staples tapering sets (including many Abels) - no way
    > to avoid it on some - but never a problem.  It just cuts through the staple
    > and that is that.  
    
    Most times, that's the case.
    
    
    >I wonder if you were feeding too fast.  There is a just
    > right speed to push the hammer into the blade.
    
    This would be the "push until it breaks, then back off" school 
    of calibration. I know that one intimately, but the one that 
    breaks still breaks. No, I don't shove them through without 
    caution, nor try to push the limits. This is one thing I 
    approach cautiously.
    
    
    > Now I understand why you don't want to freehand your tapering....
    > 
    > Will
    
    Ding!
    Ron N
    


  • 40.  reducing hammer weight

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-09-2008 18:47
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    The noise thing aside, the table saw method of tapering won't discolor the
    felt or leave the sides rough--assuming your blade is sharp.  It leaves a
    very clean cut and with the proper jig (Spurlock style) is very
    controllable.  The sanding method, on the other hand, definitely smears the
    side of the hammer and tends to fray the felt at the edges.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of John Delacour
    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:11 PM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    At 05:55 -0700 9/9/08, David Love wrote:
    
    >As JD pointed out, a 1/8" hole will not yield a reduction in weight of
    >anything near 1.5 grams.  In the case below I would order the set unbored
    so
    >that you can use the table saw method of reducing the weight with a full
    end
    >to end taper-especially if you are routinely having to remove that much
    from
    >the set that high up.
    
    I've always done this with a plane -- more specifically a Stanley No. 
    78 rabbet plane.  Being left-handed, I hold the plane upside down in 
    the palm of my right hand and draw the hammer along the blade about 8 
    times each side.  It is very fast and QUIET and leaves a silky 
    surface with no discoloration of the white felt by the underfelt, 
    neither of which is possible with any sanding or sawing arrangement. 
    Besides, I hate the look of rough hammer sides.  I also hate noisy 
    machines.
    
    Of course the plane needs to be sharp and well-adjusted, as is the 
    nature of planes, and one needs to hold the hammer in a certain way 
    that makes it impossible to have an accident.
    
    Occasionally a small number of hammers in a set will have a wild 
    grain.  In that case I turn the them the other way up and push them 
    into the blade with a lath, but this will only add a minute or two to 
    the whole set and it doesn't often happen.  To taper 88 hammers takes 
    about half an hour (20 seconds per hammer).  The tapering begins at 
    the nose of the moulding and runs straight, as you see on the old 
    Steinway hammers.  It looks very good.
    
    JD
    


  • 41.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 19:33
    From "Will Truitt" <surfdog@metrocast.net>
    
    And for some reason, I have found the cleanest cut comes from a 40 tooth
    combination blade.  I've tried both ripping and crosscut blades also, but
    the combo blade cuts the felt the cleanest and the side of the hammer looks
    mah-velous.
    
    Will Truitt
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of David Love
    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 7:47 PM
    To: 'Pianotech List'
    Subject: RE: reducing hammer weight
    
    The noise thing aside, the table saw method of tapering won't discolor the
    felt or leave the sides rough--assuming your blade is sharp.  It leaves a
    very clean cut and with the proper jig (Spurlock style) is very
    controllable.  The sanding method, on the other hand, definitely smears the
    side of the hammer and tends to fray the felt at the edges.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of John Delacour
    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:11 PM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    At 05:55 -0700 9/9/08, David Love wrote:
    
    >As JD pointed out, a 1/8" hole will not yield a reduction in weight of
    >anything near 1.5 grams.  In the case below I would order the set unbored
    so
    >that you can use the table saw method of reducing the weight with a full
    end
    >to end taper-especially if you are routinely having to remove that much
    from
    >the set that high up.
    
    I've always done this with a plane -- more specifically a Stanley No. 
    78 rabbet plane.  Being left-handed, I hold the plane upside down in 
    the palm of my right hand and draw the hammer along the blade about 8 
    times each side.  It is very fast and QUIET and leaves a silky 
    surface with no discoloration of the white felt by the underfelt, 
    neither of which is possible with any sanding or sawing arrangement. 
    Besides, I hate the look of rough hammer sides.  I also hate noisy 
    machines.
    
    Of course the plane needs to be sharp and well-adjusted, as is the 
    nature of planes, and one needs to hold the hammer in a certain way 
    that makes it impossible to have an accident.
    
    Occasionally a small number of hammers in a set will have a wild 
    grain.  In that case I turn the them the other way up and push them 
    into the blade with a lath, but this will only add a minute or two to 
    the whole set and it doesn't often happen.  To taper 88 hammers takes 
    about half an hour (20 seconds per hammer).  The tapering begins at 
    the nose of the moulding and runs straight, as you see on the old 
    Steinway hammers.  It looks very good.
    
    JD
    


  • 42.  reducing hammer weight

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-09-2008 20:09
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    I see from your photos that those are Ronsen hammers with Sapele moldings.
    I've been using the lightweight maple almost exclusively for awhile now.  I
    wonder if the Sapele isn't a pit more prone to coming apart like that.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of Ron Nossaman
    Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:48 PM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    David Love wrote:
    > Has that actually happened to you?  
    
    Sure has, maybe a half dozen times total, with varying degrees 
    of damage.
    
    
    >I've hit staples, or the edges of them,
    > on several occasions without any adverse effect.  Abel hammers (which I
    > don't use that often) or notorious for large staples the extend out to the
    > edges of the hammer.  It's almost impossible not to hit them when doing a
    > full taper which tends to push them away from the hammer a bit.  I just
    push
    > them back down and there seems to be no real consequence for the stability
    > of the hammer.
    
    I might hit six or seven staples through multiple sets with no 
    problem. It's the odd one that isn't not a problem that's the 
    problem.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 43.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-09-2008 20:39
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    David Love wrote:
    > I see from your photos that those are Ronsen hammers with Sapele moldings.
    > I've been using the lightweight maple almost exclusively for awhile now.  I
    > wonder if the Sapele isn't a pit more prone to coming apart like that.  
    > 
    > David Love
    
    Could be. I have no clue.
    Ron N
    


  • 44.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-10-2008 00:14
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>
    
    At 19:09 -0700 9/9/08, David Love wrote:
    
    >I see from your photos that those are Ronsen hammers with Sapele moldings.
    >I've been using the lightweight maple almost exclusively for awhile now.  I
    >wonder if the Sapele isn't a pit more prone to coming apart like that.
    
    The photos show walnut mouldings, not sapele.  Imadegawa hammers of 
    this style are also walnut.
    
    JD
    


  • 45.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-10-2008 07:48
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    John Delacour wrote:
    
    > The photos show walnut mouldings, not sapele.  Imadegawa hammers of this 
    > style are also walnut.
    > 
    > JD
    
    The hammers are Ronsens, the moldings Sapele.
    Ron N
    


  • 46.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-10-2008 12:40
    From John Delacour <JD@Pianomaker.co.uk>
    
    At 08:48 -0500 10/9/08, Ron Nossaman wrote:
    
    >The hammers are Ronsens, the moldings Sapele.
    
    Neither the grain nor the colour is that of sapele.  I am thoroughly 
    familiar with the characteristics of the two woods and whether you 
    bought it as sapele and were told it was sapele is of no interest to 
    me.  It is not sapele.
    
    JD
    


  • 47.  reducing hammer weight

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-10-2008 19:41
    From erwinspiano@aol.com
    
    ? David?
    ??I beleive you are correct. As JD says the grain can be squirrly. The light maple?is far less problematic
    ? Dale
    
    
    I see from your photos that those are Ronsen hammers with Sapele moldings.
    I've been using the lightweight maple almost exclusively for awhile now.  I
    wonder if the Sapele isn't a bit more prone to coming apart like that.  
    
    David Love
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net 
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    


  • 48.  reducing hammer weight

    Posted 09-14-2008 17:49
    From "Nick Gravagne" <gravagnegang@att.net>
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf
    Of William Monroe
    Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 9:28 PM
    To: Pianotech List
    Subject: Re: reducing hammer weight
    
    Hi Nick,
    
    ...
    Would you mind expanding upon your last paragraph below??
    
    Thanks,
    William R. Monroe
    
    > Hi William,
    
    > ...
    > In addition, our statically determined weight adjustments, i.e., the usual
    > downweight/upweight gram tests, is one thing; but the dynamic result of a
    > hammer of either more weight or less weight flying toward the strings at
    > high velocity is something else again. The dynamic inertial values are a
    > function of the static, but are of significantly higher magnitude.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Nick Gravagne, RPT
    
    Hi William,
    
    Think of the tire on your car. It must be balanced or it will wobble at high
    speeds but won't be noticeable at very low speeds. This is because
    rotational dynamics or dynamic inertia "feels" the spinning mass in a much
    more intensified way. The guy at the tire shop finds the out-of-balance
    points by use of a dynamically controlled spin-balancer and makes
    corrections by clipping small weights on to the wheel. 
    
    The usual DW and UW touchweight tests we make are static, and although
    revealing much needed information they only suggest what the pianist is
    likely to feel when the entire system is in operation at varying speeds.
    Mass in motion, whether in a straight line or rotational (as with piano
    actions), always implies inertia as a force to be reckoned with. 
    
    Now we have no real convenient method to measure dynamic or rotational piano
    action inertia, thus our simple static tests will have to do, and in fact
    they do reasonably well. This is to say that a direct measurement of the
    dynamics would not yield anything critical that our static tests don't
    already suggest. But having said that it is interesting to realize the
    generalized physics of inertia, that rotating mass is the product of the
    mass times the radius (of the rotation) squared (m r^2). 
    
    But what we are really looking for is torque (T) since it includes the
    factor of acceleration (A) giving us the desired formula T = (m r^2) A. Here
    we clearly see the direct relationship of acceleration to torque in that
    increases to A are directly proportional to increases in T. But static tests
    have no acceleration (the slow hammer rise due to 50 grams of downweight is
    negligible). 
    
    Also note that inertia is considered to be reflected back to the initial
    cause or source. Inertial force is less about output and more about
    feedback, which again is torque in a rotational system. In our case inertia
    is reflected back to the pianist's finger and is perceived as a force
    required to get things moving --- the higher the acceleration of the finger,
    the higher the reflected inertial force is felt by that finger.
    
    Graphed out on an x-y coordinate system the dynamic ratios, based on a
    spread of static ratios of 4.8 to 6.2, form a segment of a classic y = x^2
    parabola indicating that the ratios increase exponentially (although the
    curve is not classic exponential). Simply stated, higher dynamic ratios mean
    more serious inertia at harder hammer blows. And as the ratios increase the
    reflected inertial force felt at the key follows suit. This is not merely an
    additive process but rather a classic nonlinear function and linked process.
    
    I am working to include actual data in my own programs, spreadsheets and
    graphing programs. 
    
    All this is to say what we already know, i.e., that in addition to
    maintaining overall action ratios we must pay special attention to the
    following five items:
    
    1.	Hammer mass: The weight of the hammers, particularly the moldings (I
    prefer as much felt-to-wood ratio as I can get). The usual prepping of
    tailing, side tapering and (sometimes) enlarging the cove, along with
    general cleaning of the felt should suffice in most cases. I am not a big
    fan in heavy removal of felt in order to lighten hammer mass.
    2.	Keystick ratio: is held close to 2 to 1 or better.
    3.	Hammer center-to-knuckle core spread: it should work for a
    particular application. 17mm is something of a safe industry standard, but
    does not have to be rigidly adhered to depending on the knowledge and skill
    of the practitioner (see recent PT Journal pg. 13 RE Bruce Stevens' brief
    explanation of a very skillful use of the old-style S&S 15.5mm knuckle
    spread). In fact, closer spreads, say 15.5 or 16 or 16.2, or 16.5mm will
    yield increased hammer speed for a given dip and hammer blow.
    4.    Key leads: use as few as possible to get the job done. Recall the
    3-2-1-none general rule; i.e., 3 leads in the bass, yields to 2 leads in the
    tenor, yields to 2 in the treble, yields to none in the high treble. But
    don't get hung up as this "rule" is often violated as it cannot always work
    for all action ratios and parts weights.
    5.	Dip: playing with ratios is fine, but changes will impact the
    required key dip necessary for aftertouch to function. In general and
    theoretically, every 1/2mm increase in hammer center-to-knuckle core spread
    will require an additional 0.32mm increase in key dip for aftertouch to
    function. Thus a change from 15.5mm to 17 will require a dip increase of
    almost 1mm. Of course, one could split the difference using less dip in
    combo with a slightly reduced hammer blow. 
    
    Action supply kits are handy tools with which to work out a recipe, to
    "break the code". Once there, then "plug and play"! 
    
    Keystick bending and overall too-soft compaction and recovery of felts,
    leather and contact points are also items to consider, but that is a story
    primarily about efficiency and secondarily about ratios and forces.
    
    Ciao for now...
    
    Nick