PianoTech Archive

  • 1.  Wood over soundboard ribs

    Posted 11-08-2010 05:00
      |   view attached
    From limhseng@gmail.com
    
    Hi List
    This NY Steinway B has a piece of wood over 5 soundboard ribs on the bass side. What is it for and what does it do?
    Thanks.
    Lim
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  • 2.  Wood over soundboard ribs

    Posted 11-08-2010 06:24
      |   view attached
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    On 11/8/2010 6:00 AM, limhseng@gmail.com wrote:
    > Hi List
    > This NY Steinway B has a piece of wood over 5 soundboard ribs on the bass side. What is it for and what does it do?
    > Thanks.
    > Lim
    
    
    It's an attempt to compensate for the too long ribs, rather than having 
    installed the cutoff bar that should have been there.
    Ron N
    


  • 3.  Wood over soundboard ribs

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-08-2010 08:10
    From "David Love" <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    That type of cutoff (on the B) is relatively ineffective in stiffening the
    longest ribs in the piano compared to what Ron has pictured.  There are
    other types of cutoffs as well that don't necessarily get clamped down to
    the bracing (as you see in Ron's photo) but are more substantial in size
    such (than the B connector) as are often found on a Bluthner pianos.  There
    the cutoff bar is approximately 2" x 2" made of spruce, maple or something
    (can't recall) but adheres only to the rim at each end while riding above
    the bracing.  That, I assume would be more effective than what you see on
    the B but less than were the cutoff attached to the bracing creating, in
    effect, the working rim of the piano.  There are lots of different
    approaches to cutoff bars, some more substantial than others, and different
    makers have their own philosophy including not using them at all.  It's
    interesting to note that I was looking at a 1970s? Yamaha G3 the other day
    that employed a full bass cutoff bar.  Curiously, the C series pianos don't
    use them yet are considered to be a more refined model.  That G3 still
    sounded pretty good, all things considered.  
    
    David Love
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    
    


  • 4.  Wood over soundboard ribs

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-08-2010 08:33
    From Dale Erwin <erwinspiano@aol.com>
    
    As well, the ribs on the B are pared down significantly at this point so as to compromise the ribs crown support.
     FWIW  Bs from different eras had this slat (pulsator bar officially) covering 3, 4 and 5 ribs, And on Bs from different time periods had 13 or 14 ribs as well as slightly different long bridge shapes/string scales. Obviously they had the luxury and were experimenting empirically but eventually settled on 13 ribs with the slat covering 5 ribs.
      I have removed this slat and extended the ribs as per what most makers do... to the corner on one of my B rebuilds about 5 years ago. I like the piano. 
       As Ron N. has often said . I'll paraphrase...if you remove something that is supposed to be a design feature and the change is undetectable then was it? Ie. bells...ring bridge..etc
    
    
     Dale S. Erwin
    www.Erwinspiano.com
    
    
     Original Message-----
    From: David Love <davidlovepianos@comcast.net>
    
    
    
    That type of cutoff (on the B) is relatively ineffective in stiffening the
    
    longest ribs in the piano compared to what Ron has pictured.  There are
    
    other types of cutoffs as well that don't necessarily get clamped down to
    
    the bracing (as you see in Ron's photo) but are more substantial in size
    
    such (than the B connector) as are often found on a Bluthner pianos.  There
    
    the cutoff bar is approximately 2" x 2" made of spruce, maple or something
    
    (can't recall) but adheres only to the rim at each end while riding above
    
    the bracing.  That, I assume would be more effective than what you see on
    
    the B but less than were the cutoff attached to the bracing creating, in
    
    effect, the working rim of the piano.  There are lots of different
    
    approaches to cutoff bars, some more substantial than others, and different
    
    makers have their own philosophy including not using them at all.  It's
    
    interesting to note that I was looking at a 1970s? Yamaha G3 the other day
    
    that employed a full bass cutoff bar.  Curiously, the C series pianos don't
    
    use them yet are considered to be a more refined model.  That G3 still
    
    sounded pretty good, all things considered.  
    
    
    
    David Love
    
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    
    
    
    
    
    


  • 5.  Wood over soundboard ribs

    Posted 11-08-2010 08:55
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    On 11/8/2010 9:32 AM, Dale Erwin wrote:
    > As well, the ribs on the B are pared down significantly at this point so
    > as to compromise the ribs crown support.
    
    Actually, no. With a purely compression crowned board, less tall ribs 
    will crown more as they offer less resistance to crowning than do the 
    taller ribs.
    
    
    > As Ron N. has often said . I'll paraphrase...if you remove something
    > that is supposed to be a design feature and the change is undetectable
    > then was it? Ie. bells...ring bridge..etc
    
    Yes, but... I guarantee that you can hear the difference between one of 
    my Ds with a separate bass bridge, low tenor transition, and no wrapped 
    trichords, and a stock D with a ring bridge. Same with the bell. Put in 
    a mass loaded belly rail brace, or braces, and a real nose bolt, and the 
    treble comes to life.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 6.  Wood over soundboard ribs

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-08-2010 09:03
    From Dale Erwin <erwinspiano@aol.com>
    
    But of course! or duh! :)  
     
       
    
    Dale S. Erwin
    www.Erwinspiano.com
    
    
    
    
     
    > As Ron N. has often said . I'll paraphrase...if you remove something 
    > that is supposed to be a design feature and the change is undetectable 
    > then was it? Ie. bells...ring bridge..etc 
     
    Yes, but... I guarantee that you can hear the difference between one of my Ds with a separate bass bridge, low tenor transition, and no wrapped trichords, and a stock D with a ring bridge. Same with the bell. Put in a mass loaded belly rail brace, or braces, and a real nose bolt, and the treble comes to life. 
     
    Ron N 
    
     
    


  • 7.  Wood over soundboard ribs

    Posted 11-08-2010 15:49
    From jimialeggio <jimialeggio@gmail.com>
    
    and a real nose bolt, and the treble comes to life.
    
    Ron N
    
    
    Yes... rather than finding the nosebolt connection to be one of minor 
    ineffective adjustments to downbearing, when set up right I'm finding 
    them to be very effective means of mass coupling between plate and 
    bracing...major treble improvement.
    
    What do you mean by a real nose bolt?
    
    Jim I
    
    
    
    -- 
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    978- 425-9026
    Shirley, MA
    


  • 8.  Wood over soundboard ribs

    Posted 11-08-2010 16:02
    From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>
    
    On 11/8/2010 4:49 PM, jimialeggio wrote:
    
    > What do you mean by a real nose bolt?
    
    A real nose bolt, screwed into a real beam, which is bracing the too 
    soft spruce belly rail, rather than a bolt between plate and bell, 
    leaving the belly rail unsupported by anything but that little bitty 
    stick. The nose bolt never was intended to be for setting downbearing, 
    but rather support and coupling between the plate and bracing/rim.
    
    Ron N
    


  • 9.  Wood over soundboard ribs

    Posted 11-08-2010 15:24
    From "William Truitt" <surfdog@metrocast.net>
    
    I call it the "Poor Man's cutoff bar"  My 1899 Steinway B in the shop has it
    on only 3 ribs.  :-(
    
    Will Truitt