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New Flanges or Just New Cord?

  • 1.  New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-15-2013 19:02
    Can I get some advice from those of you who have encountered the broken Yamaha upright hammer butt spring cord?  Several of them are broken on this action and obviously they should all be replaced.  Do I go through the trouble of replacing the flanges which would entail, traveling, and re-aligning hammers?  Or should I just keep the flanges in place, remove the hammer shank with the little metal screw and plate, then acetone the old cords away and put new cords on?

    Let's hear it. 

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    Douglas Laing
    Tuner/Technician
    Safety Harbor FL
    727-539-9602
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  • 2.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Member
    Posted 08-15-2013 21:11
    How many are broken ? Also why do they seem broken - age/rot ? Rule of thumb is 7 or less repair HOWEVER if they seem like they are breaking due to age it may be better to bite the bullet and replace them all. Sometimes when you touch them they just evaporate- I had one in a Yamaha two weeks ago. I fixed a broken jack spring but also had to tighten flange pin on the hammer since the pin had walked. Chances are good that it is time to replace all the chords

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    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
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  • 3.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Posted 08-15-2013 22:49
    Check recent back issues of the Journal for discussion of efficient methods. Don't remove the flanges, repair them on the rail. ------------------------------------------- Ed Sutton Editor Piano Technicians Journal ed440@me.com 704-536-7926 -------------------------------------------


  • 4.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-30-2013 07:02
    Ed, do you remember right off hand what issue/issues of the Journal in which flange cord repairs was addressed?

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    Wesley Hardman
    Owner Hardman Piano Service
    Scottsboro AL
    256-574-4761
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  • 5.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-31-2013 09:17
    Someone posted which issue above.  I'm on my last hour of this job.  The most important tip I can give is to make sure you have at least 6 yards of cord.  I used the silk cord that Schaff sells so that another technician can do this again in 30 years.   

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    Douglas Laing
    Tuner/Technician
    Safety Harbor FL
    727-539-9602
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  • 6.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-16-2013 00:10
    Doug

    I used to replace the flanges, thinking it was easier and faster. But then one day I had to do a job like that, and discovered I didn't have any Yamaha flanges, and to order just one set would have taken a week, and cost a lot more than I was willing to spend, considering the postage.

    I remembered reading somewhere, (and I thought I kept the article, but can't find it), how to replace just the cords. So I'm giving you a short version of how to do this. But like Ed said, if you go to our archives, or look in back issues of the Journal, you will probably be able to find it,
     
    Step 1. Undo the bridle straps. You probably will break a lot of them so be sure you have a set of clip on straps. (or however you want to put on new straps).  
    Step 2. Turn the action around and remove the dampers.
    Step 3. Unscrew the little metal screw on the hammer butt and remove the hammer from the flange.
    Step 4. With the action laying on the wippens, take a hacksaw blade, and scribe the grove where the old cord is glued.
    Step 5. Wrap a fishing cord, preferably made out of thread, but not nylon, the same thickness as the old cord, around a 5/8" dowel a whole bunch of times. Cut the line with a knife, so that you have (eventually) 88 short pieces of cord.
    Step 6. With tweezers, or your fingers, dip one end of a cord in some glue, and place it in one of the groves of the flange. It doesn't take much glue to hold it in place. I use tight bond, but use what ever glue you're comfortable with .
    Step 7. By the time you get done with one section, the glue on the cord you did first will be dry. Take a small screw drive, dip it in the glue, and dab the glue in the other grove of the flange, and take your fingers, or a tweezers, and put the other end of the cord in the groove, and press it down with your finger.
    Step 9. Re-assemble the action.

    With a little experience you should be able to do this job in about 3 hours.

    Wim Blees RPT
    Mililani, HI




  • 7.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Posted 08-16-2013 07:46
      |   view attached
    Here's my method, file attached.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 8.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-16-2013 08:04
    When I just touch the old one's they break, so I'm replacing them all. Thank you for the step-by-step instructions for replacing the cord.  I'm not taking the flanges off; there is no need for that.  I have everything I need and will have it done by Monday.

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    Douglas Laing
    Tuner/Technician
    Safety Harbor FL
    727-539-9602
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  • 9.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-16-2013 11:33

    Dear Wim and John,

        Both of you guys are working way too hard on this! Please read the article Ed referred to. 

        Remove the hammer-rail; yes.
        Don't remove the bridle straps; just loosen the butt-plates and pull the hammers forward to dangle.
        Scrape the slots with almost any appropriate tool (the old cord/glue scrape out easily). that fits the slot.
        Do the job on a comfortable bench, and you don't even need an action-support.
        Glue one side of pre-measured cord lengths (48mm) into slot (I use Elmer's white) for 10 or 12. By the time you have them in...
        Glue other side. Move on to next 10-12. Let whole set dry for a couple hours. Re-install hammers.

        No regulation change, as the hammers smoothly slot back into place.
        No voicing change, as the hammers are precisely back into place (..sometimes need a little nudge on one or two. Not much or many!).
        Reinstall hammer-rail. Poof!

        Total time; I have it down to 4 hours plus drying time and reinstall.

        Send an eMail to TunerJeff@aol.com, and I will send you the submitted article and pictures. Easy-peasy, gents.

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    Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
    North Bend OR
    tunerjeff@aol.com
    Portland Chapter #972
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  • 10.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Posted 08-31-2013 13:41
    If I'm doing a job, I'm not going to do it half-fast. The hammers need resurfacing. Tapering them improves the tone. Short of that, you're just stuffing your customers money in your pocket and the rest be damned. I'm not saying that I've not done a quick and dirty repair but this scenario calls for putting your best foot forward. Conscientious craftsmanship seems to be taking a back seat to making a quick buck.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 11.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-01-2013 07:56
    This piano is 30+ years old and the hammers, as well as everything else, look like new.  You can hardly see any grooves.  If I were to resurface such beautiful hammers I would be selling my customer an unnecessary job.  I did do a quick polishing with Jurgen's micro paper to remove any "dead" felt.

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    Douglas Laing
    Tuner/Technician
    Safety Harbor FL
    727-539-9602
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  • 12.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-01-2013 13:46
    <<Conscientious craftsmanship seems to be taking a back seat to making a quick buck.- Jon >>

    Dear Jon,

        It is worth noting that I was not looking for a quick way to change the cords when I did this job the first time. That was simply a bonus, and one I wanted to share with my fellow technicians. As I noted in my article (Aug11-Journal...I think) the reason I wanted to keep the flanges on the rail was not speed....it was the demand of the artist/owner/composer/recording artist that I NOT change the voicing on the hammers of his piano.  He was adamant that the hammers not be resurfaced, voiced, or changed in any way. He loves his piano, uses it regularly for recording, and was totally against my observation that it might be improved by resurfacing and a little attention to the bright sound in the higher octaves. 

        "Don't change a thing about the sound, I love it'" says the customer. So, my job was not to make the piano sound the way I thought it should....it was to find a way to keep it as the customer wanted. The fact that I could get his repetition back, replacing the cords without changing anything in the sound he was accustomed to, was precisely the right thing to do for this case. Conscientous, careful, and precise craftsmanship returned an action that retained the voicing and sound that the owner loved and desired. I am very comfortable with the decision...and the owner was astounded that I was able to complete the job and return his beloved piano to service in under two days.

        When I submitted that article, and my independant discovery of replacing cords while leaving the flanges in place, I thought I had made a totally new approach to the job......but Ed Sutton responded that he had done it that way for a while, he just had not taken the time to take pictures and write it up. Another technician presented a similar approach in a 'MiniTech' at convention way back in '99, I am told. I thought I had made a brilliant discovery...and discovered that I simply was the guy who took the time to write it up! (sigh) Quite an ego-popper it was...I thought it was genius...it was just being conscientous about sharing a thought with others. It also taught me that sharing our methods through the Journal was a good idea, and I now try to send suggestions whenever I do something I've done for years, but have not seen in the pages of the Journal. I think I've gotten a good half-dozen suggestions and tips in the last couple years. (See September-Journal for how I got in the business, BTW). And I would suggest that things you often take for granted, in performing everyday tasks, might well be worth a moment of your time to write up and submit to John and Ed at the Journal.

        I have done the job several times since the original article. I resurface the hammers and perform the maintenance that seems appropriate to each instrument. Replacing the cords on the action, without fussing with the flanges and hammer alignment, STILL saves a huge investment in time and effort. No changes to hammer alignment. No changes in regulation. It just lets me save time for better things, Jon. And saves uneeded expense to the customer. It does not matter how far you want to go, in caring for a particular instrument, this method simply saves you time on the tedious process of getting the cords changed.

    Reasonably,
    Smiling,
    I remain,
    Yr. humble and ob't svt.,  
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    Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
    North Bend OR
    tunerjeff@aol.com
    Portland Chapter #972
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  • 13.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Posted 09-01-2013 20:14
    Jeffery,
    You were constrained by the customers's demands. I would have sold him voicing on top of it; or passed the job on to you :-)  We all have our own ways of doing things, different approaches. I find it difficult to think that the string grooves really do align 100% afterwards with also tightening the flanges.

    He seemed rather picky for someone with an upright, I usually get these concerns from grand owners.
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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 14.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2013 09:58


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    [Thomas] [Driscoll] [RPT]
    [Piano Tuner -Technician]
    Tom Driscoll Piano Service]
    [Marlboro] [Ma]
    508-485-0369]

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    Just tried to post some pics on this thread and I can't figure it out. So much easier on the old pianotech .
     I'm sure it's my shortcoming. Email me @     tomtuner@verizon.net and I'll forward them to anyone interested.
       Tom -Puzzled --  Driscoll







  • 15.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Posted 09-03-2013 07:59
    I have had several of these Yamaha butt loop cord problem pianos and in each case it was resolved by replacing all the loops. That's the only way. I would make a 'former' of cereal box card to wind loop cord on - the required number of turns = the number of butts + a few. Use a length of masking tape to hold all windings in place, cut through and the lengths of cord stay in place on the masking tape ready for use. Scrape out the old broken loops. For this I use the metal hanger from a plastic coat hanger having bent and sharpened the business end as a scraper. You can experiment a method of gluing in these replacement loops but I found it best to remove each hammer and flange assembly and re-loop them as I went. A spot of glue in the cleaned out butt groove and insert the loop ends using a finger nail to push them home. Then a touch of glue on top to ensure a good fix. Note. Having removed the flanges means the hammers will need re-aligning to the strings and, most likely, re-facing to get rid of the grooves in the hammers. Be aware of this!
    Michael (UK)

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    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
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  • 16.  RE:New Flanges or Just New Cord?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-02-2013 20:47


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    [Thomas] [Driscoll] [RPT]
    [Piano Tuner -Technician]
    Tom Driscoll Piano Service]
    [Marlboro] [Ma]
    508-485-0369]

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    List,
     Sorry about my last post with the pics. The files do not contain the pictures of the actual removal and replacement of the cords. Somehow I messed up on the post and I'll try again if there is any interest --OR --just email me as some have you have done and I'll send along the complete file. Sorry.
    Tom Driscoll
    tomtuner@verizon.net



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