PianoTech Archive

From Douglas Gregg <classicpianodoc@gmail.com>

Wim,

I think we are in a similar climate, though Long Island is not as
warm-pitty. I see Baldwin hammers open up on a pretty regular basis.
Here, they are mostly in pianos that spent some time in a garage or
basement. I think the Baldwin glue is just too moisture sensitive and
the lack of staples. What are you using to re-glue the hammers? How do
you clamp them? I have a couple neat clamps that are ratcheted and
just fit the shape of a bass hammer. I put it in a TT&T.  Too bad that
they are no longer available from Garrett Wade. I saw small spring
clamps the same shape at Home Depot a couple weeks ago. They would
make a good substitute. They were pretty cheap too.

Doug Gregg
Classic Piano Doc
Southold, NY 11971

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 22:24:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: tnrwim@aol.com
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Baldwin hammers
Message-ID: <8CF5C495E3A1586-D68-315FA@webmail-d039.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


This is a picture of Baldwin hammers, with the felt coming loose from
the molding. Since I've been here, I've replaced about dozen sets, and
glued the felt back on about 3 or 4 dozen pianos. The thing is, I
don't think I ever saw this when I was in St. Louis or in Alabama, but
then I didn't service that many Baldwins back then.

The question I have is, is it just happening in Hawaii because of the
climate, or is this happening all over the country because Baldwin
hammers were not glued properly at the factory, and without staples,
and they are just now starting to come loose after 10 - 15 years?

Wim

From tnrwim@aol.com

What are you using to re-glue the hammers? How do
you clamp them? 


I put super glue on the molding, squirt some kicker on it, and then clamp the felt with vice grips. It sets in about 30 seconds. 

If there are less than 10 hammers, and then only the top, I do this with the action on the piano. But when there are more than 10, and especially when there are a lot with the felt loose on the bottom, I take the action home. The problem is that when I do one side, the other side comes loose. That is why I am able to convince the customer to replace the set. 

The problem is mostly on Hamiltons, but it has also happens on consoles, as in the piano I pictured. 

Wim

 





                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: Douglas Gregg <classicpianodoc@gmail.com>
To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Mon, Sep 10, 2012 4:55 am
Subject: [pianotech] Re.  Baldwin hammers


Wim,

I think we are in a similar climate, though Long Island is not as
warm-pitty. I see Baldwin hammers open up on a pretty regular basis.
Here, they are mostly in pianos that spent some time in a garage or
basement. I think the Baldwin glue is just too moisture sensitive and
the lack of staples. What are you using to re-glue the hammers? How do
you clamp them? I have a couple neat clamps that are ratcheted and
just fit the shape of a bass hammer. I put it in a TT&T.  Too bad that
they are no longer available from Garrett Wade. I saw small spring
clamps the same shape at Home Depot a couple weeks ago. They would
make a good substitute. They were pretty cheap too.

Doug Gregg
Classic Piano Doc
Southold, NY 11971

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 22:24:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: tnrwim@aol.com
To: pianotech@ptg.org
Subject: [pianotech] Baldwin hammers
Message-ID: <8CF5C495E3A1586-D68-315FA@webmail-d039.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


This is a picture of Baldwin hammers, with the felt coming loose from
the molding. Since I've been here, I've replaced about dozen sets, and
glued the felt back on about 3 or 4 dozen pianos. The thing is, I
don't think I ever saw this when I was in St. Louis or in Alabama, but
then I didn't service that many Baldwins back then.

The question I have is, is it just happening in Hawaii because of the
climate, or is this happening all over the country because Baldwin
hammers were not glued properly at the factory, and without staples,
and they are just now starting to come loose after 10 - 15 years?

Wim

 

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

I do the CA like Wim describes, but for clamping, I simply squeeze between thumb and index finger for the 20 seconds or so.

Oh, and that way you can easily tell if there is much squeeze-out out the side of the hammer.  ;-0

Terry Farrell

On Sep 10, 2012, at 2:42 PM, someone wrote:

>  What are you using to re-glue the hammers? How do
> you clamp them? 

From richarducci@comcast.net

And you can do this on bass hammers?

Rick Ucci
Uccipiano.com

On Sep 10, 2012, at 3:49 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> I do the CA like Wim describes, but for clamping, I simply squeeze between thumb and index finger for the 20 seconds or so.
> 
> Oh, and that way you can easily tell if there is much squeeze-out out the side of the hammer.  ;-0
> 
> Terry Farrell
> 
> On Sep 10, 2012, at 2:42 PM, someone wrote:
> 
>>  What are you using to re-glue the hammers? How do
>> you clamp them? 

From Dave Doremus <algiers_piano@bellsouth.net>

I just had to do this on the bass section of a Mason CC, 8 year old Renner hammers and apparently a week without A/C weakened the glue enough that they let go. The felt was so stiff that it took two heavy spring clamps to get it back even close to where it was. I'm recommending replacing the entire set...


---Dave Doremus
New Orleans 


On Sep 11, 2012, at 6:31 AM, richarducci@comcast.net wrote:

> And you can do this on bass hammers?
> 
> Rick Ucci
> Uccipiano.com
> 
> On Sep 10, 2012, at 3:49 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> 
>> I do the CA like Wim describes, but for clamping, I simply squeeze between thumb and index finger for the 20 seconds or so.
>> 
>> Oh, and that way you can easily tell if there is much squeeze-out out the side of the hammer.  ;-0
>> 
>> Terry Farrell
>> 
>> On Sep 10, 2012, at 2:42 PM, someone wrote:
>> 
>>>  What are you using to re-glue the hammers? How do
>>> you clamp them? 

From tnrwim@aol.com

Oh, and that way you can easily tell if there is much squeeze-out out the side of the hammer.  ;-0


Terry Farrell


First, if Terry can do this with his fingers, his are stronger than mine. Second, I think what he is trying to say, however, that if there is squeez-out, be sure not to get it on your fingers. They will be stuck forever. 

I had that happen once a long time ago with a key. I CA glued an ivory to a key, holding it in place with my fingers. The phone rang, and 5 minutes later I tried to let go of the key. I had to cut the skin off with a razor blade to separate the two.  Ouch!!!!

Wim


 





                                                

					
                                                    

        
                                                
				
                                                

                                                    
                                                        
                                                        Original Message
                                                
                                                Original Message-----
From: richarducci <richarducci@comcast.net>
To: pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 1:37 am
Subject: Re: [pianotech] Re.  Baldwin hammers


And you can do this on bass hammers?

Rick Ucci
Uccipiano.com


On Sep 10, 2012, at 3:49 PM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:




I do the CA like Wim describes, but for clamping, I simply squeeze between thumb and index finger for the 20 seconds or so.


Oh, and that way you can easily tell if there is much squeeze-out out the side of the hammer.  ;-0


Terry Farrell


On Sep 10, 2012, at 2:42 PM, someone wrote:




What are you using to re-glue the hammers? How do
you clamp them? 




 

From Susan Kline <skline@peak.org>

Thanks for reminding me, Wim -- time to replace the nail polish remover 
inside the plastic bottle inside the ziploc bag inside the 6-pack cooler 
inside my trunk.

I was gluing on a rubber button. Protocol: after being sure you've got a 
fit, put a drop of Elmer's Glue on the side of the hole in the lid, 
spread it around the rest of the circumference with a tiny screwdriver, 
then take the rubber button, and put a couple of drops of CA glue on the 
sides which will contact the hole. SMALL drops, one each side. Squeeze 
out on a satin finish is pretty well there for the duration, especially 
since it's right next to the rubber button. If you do have squeeze-out, 
try to wick it up with the edge of a handkerchief, WITHOUT RUBBING.

<don't ask me how I know ...>

Do NOT get some Elmer's on the second joint of your left index finger, 
and then allow your CA-contaminated thumb to contact that spot. With CA 
glue alone, one can kind of rip one's fingers apart from whatever they 
are stuck to, losing only the most superficial layer of skin. Not so if 
one's anatomy had a smear of Elmer's there first. I don't know why the 
CA bond penetrates so many more layers of skin with Elmer's in the mix, 
but it sure does.

(The Glue Trick's Revenge?)

Luckily I was glued to myself, not to a stationary object, so I walked 
to the car, got the nail polish remover open (one-handed), poured some 
on the very firm bond, worked at prying it apart, poured some more, 
worked some more, poured some more, worked some more, and then I was 
free without scarring or loss of blood.

Set up CA IS soluble in acetone -- sort of.

Susan Kline

tnrwim@aol.com wrote:
>
> First, if Terry can do this with his fingers, his are stronger than 
> mine. Second, I think what he is trying to say, however, that if there 
> is squeez-out, be sure not to get it on your fingers. They will be 
> stuck forever.
>  
> I had that happen once a long time ago with a key. I CA glued an ivory 
> to a key, holding it in place with my fingers. The phone rang, and 5 
> minutes later I tried to let go of the key. I had to cut the skin off 
> with a razor blade to separate the two.  Ouch!!!!
>  
> Wim

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 9/10/2012 2:49 PM, Terry Farrell wrote:

> but for clamping, I simply squeeze
> between thumb and index finger for the 20 seconds or so.

And you've actually suggested that some of the rest of us are bionic? I 
haven't spent a lot of time gluing exploding hammers back together, but 
I haven't come across many I remember being able to do this with. Which 
brings up the question: If the felt of a hammer is that easy to squeeze 
back into place, what pulled it apart in the first place? AT'sa pretty 
lousy glue joint! Then there's the hammer to shank joint. Maybe that 
explains the attached PDF too, when I had a run of loose ribs in new 
Baldwins. We have a possible trend...

 From a practical standpoint, manufacturing QC has *GOT* to be a 
nightmare on all levels, and I doubt few if anyone noticed anything at 
the time indicating this stuff would be a future problem.

Ron N

Attachment(s)

Baldwin gluing ribs.pdf   161 KB 1 version

From "Delwin D Fandrich" 

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 9/11/2012 8:17 PM, Delwin D Fandrich wrote:
> It is especially difficult when you get rid of nearly all of the
> quality control personnel, stop checking to see if things like the
> adhesive you received from a vendor is actually what you ordered and
> that it is being used before its expiration date, stop checking to
> make sure the adhesive is being mixed accurately before use and pay
> little attention to whether it is being used correctly and minor
> details like maximum open time are being adhered to.


Yea, I know, and the tip of the iceberg. Glue was insignificant compared 
to the extensive list of manifest administrative insanities. I've said 
before that Baldwin management earned the company's demise as 
relentlessly and thoroughly as any I'm aware of. Could easily pass as a 
contract killing. The remarkable thing is that it lasted as long as it 
did under the barrage of cumulative stupidity. Could have been world 
class and immortal with someone even moderately capable who cared.

Ron N

From Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>

Sometimes it is difficult to manually squeeze them enough, but often not. In the end though, I've always been able to do it manually. As to what pulled it apart in the first place, I have always thought that the glue joint was so poor that they pretty much just fell apart. Now was that because of the quality of the glue, the amount of glue, the prep - I don't have a clue.

Terry Farrell

On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:13 AM, Ron Nossaman wrote:

> On 9/10/2012 2:49 PM, Terry Farrell wrote:
> 
>> but for clamping, I simply squeeze
>> between thumb and index finger for the 20 seconds or so.
> 
> And you've actually suggested that some of the rest of us are bionic? I haven't spent a lot of time gluing exploding hammers back together, but I haven't come across many I remember being able to do this with. Which brings up the question: If the felt of a hammer is that easy to squeeze back into place, what pulled it apart in the first place? AT'sa pretty lousy glue joint! Then there's the hammer to shank joint. Maybe that explains the attached PDF too, when I had a run of loose ribs in new Baldwins. We have a possible trend...
> 
> From a practical standpoint, manufacturing QC has *GOT* to be a nightmare on all levels, and I doubt few if anyone noticed anything at the time indicating this stuff would be a future problem.
> 
> Ron N
> <Baldwin gluing ribs.pdf>

From richarducci@comcast.net

How is this done in the factory?
Pneumatic clamps?

Rick Ucci
Uccipiano.com

On Sep 12, 2012, at 9:32 AM, Terry Farrell <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

> Sometimes it is difficult to manually squeeze them enough, but often not. In the end though, I've always been able to do it manually. As to what pulled it apart in the first place, I have always thought that the glue joint was so poor that they pretty much just fell apart. Now was that because of the quality of the glue, the amount of glue, the prep - I don't have a clue.
> 
> Terry Farrell
> 
> On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:13 AM, Ron Nossaman wrote:
> 
>> On 9/10/2012 2:49 PM, Terry Farrell wrote:
>> 
>>> but for clamping, I simply squeeze
>>> between thumb and index finger for the 20 seconds or so.
>> 
>> And you've actually suggested that some of the rest of us are bionic? I haven't spent a lot of time gluing exploding hammers back together, but I haven't come across many I remember being able to do this with. Which brings up the question: If the felt of a hammer is that easy to squeeze back into place, what pulled it apart in the first place? AT'sa pretty lousy glue joint! Then there's the hammer to shank joint. Maybe that explains the attached PDF too, when I had a run of loose ribs in new Baldwins. We have a possible trend...
>> 
>> From a practical standpoint, manufacturing QC has *GOT* to be a nightmare on all levels, and I doubt few if anyone noticed anything at the time indicating this stuff would be a future problem.
>> 
>> Ron N
>> <Baldwin gluing ribs.pdf>
> 

From "Delwin D Fandrich" 

From richarducci@comcast.net

Thanks for the pic Del.
This will drive home the case for new hammers to be installed!

Rick Ucci
Uccipiano.com

On Sep 12, 2012, at 11:15 AM, "Delwin D Fandrich" 

From Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net>

On 9/12/2012 10:15 AM, Delwin D Fandrich wrote:
> Depends on the press. Attached is a picture of a manual press. Hydraulic
> presses are similar; they replace the manual acme screws with hydraulic
> cylinders.

Stargate!
Ron N