Pianotech

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

Original Message------

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

Are you hearing a longitudinal wave?


Original Message------

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

I met an older Steinway M which did something along that line in the tenor (split wedge) area. I had to glue a small piece of flat felt in between the two split wedge segments to get the sympathetic after-ring to stop. Higher partials were present.

Other times I just had to find which particular area of backlength was sympathetic, and wrap it with with a strip of keybushing cloth (firmer than stringing braid). It sounds like you've already explored the backlengths.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-06-2018 23:52
From: Frank French
Subject: troublesome overtones

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

May be a longitudinal mode...in which chase there are not many options to mitigate it, short of changing the speaking length. You can either prove or eliminate longitudinal modes as the culprit by changing the frequency of the strings. If I have this right, only changing the speaking length will effect the presence of the mode. Therefore,  if you change frequency, but the speed of the beating or presence of the objectionable sound remains unchanged, this would confirm the presence of a longitudinal mode. 

If its not longitudinal, maybe a low bass note damper is leaking. Cover up all the bass strings, except the one you are testing, with a cloth, or some damping mechanisms in addition to the dampers. See if that quiets it. If it does, locate the culprit damper.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 03:37
From: Susan Kline
Subject: troublesome overtones

I met an older Steinway M which did something along that line in the tenor (split wedge) area. I had to glue a small piece of flat felt in between the two split wedge segments to get the sympathetic after-ring to stop. Higher partials were present.

Other times I just had to find which particular area of backlength was sympathetic, and wrap it with with a strip of keybushing cloth (firmer than stringing braid). It sounds like you've already explored the backlengths.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 05-06-2018 23:52
From: Frank French
Subject: troublesome overtones

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

Jim has described the diagnostic, but I want to say it more directly:
If the overtone is a longitudinal mode. it will not change pitch when you change the fundamental pitch of the string.
To diagnose a longitudinal mode, lower the pitch of the string in small steps, listening to the fundamental and the whining sound.
If the whining sound changes pitch along with the fundamental, it is not a longitudinal mode.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 09:00
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: troublesome overtones

May be a longitudinal mode...in which chase there are not many options to mitigate it, short of changing the speaking length. You can either prove or eliminate longitudinal modes as the culprit by changing the frequency of the strings. If I have this right, only changing the speaking length will effect the presence of the mode. Therefore,  if you change frequency, but the speed of the beating or presence of the objectionable sound remains unchanged, this would confirm the presence of a longitudinal mode.

If its not longitudinal, maybe a low bass note damper is leaking. Cover up all the bass strings, except the one you are testing, with a cloth, or some damping mechanisms in addition to the dampers. See if that quiets it. If it does, locate the culprit damper.


------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 03:37
From: Susan Kline
Subject: troublesome overtones

I met an older Steinway M which did something along that line in the tenor (split wedge) area. I had to glue a small piece of flat felt in between the two split wedge segments to get the sympathetic after-ring to stop. Higher partials were present.

Other times I just had to find which particular area of backlength was sympathetic, and wrap it with with a strip of keybushing cloth (firmer than stringing braid). It sounds like you've already explored the backlengths.

------------------------------
Susan Kline
Philomath, Oregon

Original Message:
Sent: 05-06-2018 23:52
From: Frank French
Subject: troublesome overtones

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

There is a product called Auralex Studiofoam. It has pyramids molded on one side. I have used it under a grand with the pyramids facing the sound source (soundboard). I have also placed it over the plate and strings in strategic places to attenuate overtones where the customer simply wanted the volume of the piano reduced to where conversations could take place in a meeting room without the piano’s player competing with the ambience of those in conversation. It is material usually reserved for reducing unwanted overtones or deep tones in recording studios.

This is just an experimental project, first time application I used, and the corporate CEO was delighted at the results. You might try it, perhaps targeting just the areas your customer was concerned about. I got mine from Sam Ash music store in Richmond Virginia. It is not cheap as most foam goes. Should you get it, you will need an electric carving knife to cut it down to size, just like with any other soft foam.

Sent from my iPad


Original Message------

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

Frank,

Actually, if it is a L mode problem (which it does sound like from your description and location), it turns out that redesigning the offending string(s) so as to change the tension requirement for that pitch can often eliminate (or mitigate) the problem.  James Arledge has a video on his website on this very matter.

Also, the use of various types of Paulello core wire doubtlessly could help it (in redesign).

Do you know who made the bass strings?

Strike point also sometimes affects L mode.

Does the high frequency pulsate and/or "whistle"? If so, it is probably L mode.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 08:59
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: troublesome overtones

There is a product called Auralex Studiofoam. It has pyramids molded on one side. I have used it under a grand with the pyramids facing the sound source (soundboard). I have also placed it over the plate and strings in strategic places to attenuate overtones where the customer simply wanted the volume of the piano reduced to where conversations could take place in a meeting room without the piano's player competing with the ambience of those in conversation. It is material usually reserved for reducing unwanted overtones or deep tones in recording studios.

This is just an experimental project, first time application I used, and the corporate CEO was delighted at the results. You might try it, perhaps targeting just the areas your customer was concerned about. I got mine from Sam Ash music store in Richmond Virginia. It is not cheap as most foam goes. Should you get it, you will need an electric carving knife to cut it down to size, just like with any other soft foam.

Sent from my iPad


Original Message------

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

So F2's 12th(ish) partial is being heard strongly? Isn't it possible to voice out the higher partials?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but on a Steinway, with Steinway hammers, if one were to needle parallel to the wood molding, would that help in removing some of those extreme unwanted partials?

I guess one must determine where the unwanted partials are coming from before doing any work. Raise the damper and pluck the strings. Is the partial still there? Then it comes from the strings. If it's gone, it would appear to come from the hammer.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 09:30
From: Peter Grey
Subject: troublesome overtones

Frank,

Actually, if it is a L mode problem (which it does sound like from your description and location), it turns out that redesigning the offending string(s) so as to change the tension requirement for that pitch can often eliminate (or mitigate) the problem.  James Arledge has a video on his website on this very matter.

Also, the use of various types of Paulello core wire doubtlessly could help it (in redesign).

Do you know who made the bass strings?

Strike point also sometimes affects L mode.

Does the high frequency pulsate and/or "whistle"? If so, it is probably L mode.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 08:59
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: troublesome overtones

There is a product called Auralex Studiofoam. It has pyramids molded on one side. I have used it under a grand with the pyramids facing the sound source (soundboard). I have also placed it over the plate and strings in strategic places to attenuate overtones where the customer simply wanted the volume of the piano reduced to where conversations could take place in a meeting room without the piano's player competing with the ambience of those in conversation. It is material usually reserved for reducing unwanted overtones or deep tones in recording studios.

This is just an experimental project, first time application I used, and the corporate CEO was delighted at the results. You might try it, perhaps targeting just the areas your customer was concerned about. I got mine from Sam Ash music store in Richmond Virginia. It is not cheap as most foam goes. Should you get it, you will need an electric carving knife to cut it down to size, just like with any other soft foam.

Sent from my iPad


Original Message------

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

These are all helpful comments.  I did look at the Arledge video and it seems to illustrate what's going on.  The strings on this piano, though recently replaced,  were NOT made by Arledge.  This problem is likely to be encountered my numerous technicians who have clients with discerning hearing.  I will perform suggested tests and follow up once a remedy has been found.  This could take some time as the piano is on my itinerary and may not be visited for a while.

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 10:28
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: troublesome overtones

So F2's 12th(ish) partial is being heard strongly? Isn't it possible to voice out the higher partials?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but on a Steinway, with Steinway hammers, if one were to needle parallel to the wood molding, would that help in removing some of those extreme unwanted partials?

I guess one must determine where the unwanted partials are coming from before doing any work. Raise the damper and pluck the strings. Is the partial still there? Then it comes from the strings. If it's gone, it would appear to come from the hammer.

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 09:30
From: Peter Grey
Subject: troublesome overtones

Frank,

Actually, if it is a L mode problem (which it does sound like from your description and location), it turns out that redesigning the offending string(s) so as to change the tension requirement for that pitch can often eliminate (or mitigate) the problem.  James Arledge has a video on his website on this very matter.

Also, the use of various types of Paulello core wire doubtlessly could help it (in redesign).

Do you know who made the bass strings?

Strike point also sometimes affects L mode.

Does the high frequency pulsate and/or "whistle"? If so, it is probably L mode.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 08:59
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: troublesome overtones

There is a product called Auralex Studiofoam. It has pyramids molded on one side. I have used it under a grand with the pyramids facing the sound source (soundboard). I have also placed it over the plate and strings in strategic places to attenuate overtones where the customer simply wanted the volume of the piano reduced to where conversations could take place in a meeting room without the piano's player competing with the ambience of those in conversation. It is material usually reserved for reducing unwanted overtones or deep tones in recording studios.

This is just an experimental project, first time application I used, and the corporate CEO was delighted at the results. You might try it, perhaps targeting just the areas your customer was concerned about. I got mine from Sam Ash music store in Richmond Virginia. It is not cheap as most foam goes. Should you get it, you will need an electric carving knife to cut it down to size, just like with any other soft foam.

Sent from my iPad


Original Message------

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

I would try several things . make sure all the strings are level and seated at the bridge and hitch pins. make sure there is the thin ribbon cloth woven in and out of  the strings on the non speaking length of the string between the hitch pin and back bridge pin.
suspect leaking dampers especially in the bass end . use a beanbag or a bag of rice in a cloth sleeve to cover damper heads. check hammer to string mating . how are the action parts ? old, new, refurbished,  you may have to start looking at the string issues as others mentioned. try collecting some sound samples so others can hear them and comment. an ipad can work great

------------------------------
James Kelly
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 09:30
From: Peter Grey
Subject: troublesome overtones

Frank,

Actually, if it is a L mode problem (which it does sound like from your description and location), it turns out that redesigning the offending string(s) so as to change the tension requirement for that pitch can often eliminate (or mitigate) the problem.  James Arledge has a video on his website on this very matter.

Also, the use of various types of Paulello core wire doubtlessly could help it (in redesign).

Do you know who made the bass strings?

Strike point also sometimes affects L mode.

Does the high frequency pulsate and/or "whistle"? If so, it is probably L mode.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 08:59
From: Kevin Magill
Subject: troublesome overtones

There is a product called Auralex Studiofoam. It has pyramids molded on one side. I have used it under a grand with the pyramids facing the sound source (soundboard). I have also placed it over the plate and strings in strategic places to attenuate overtones where the customer simply wanted the volume of the piano reduced to where conversations could take place in a meeting room without the piano's player competing with the ambience of those in conversation. It is material usually reserved for reducing unwanted overtones or deep tones in recording studios.

This is just an experimental project, first time application I used, and the corporate CEO was delighted at the results. You might try it, perhaps targeting just the areas your customer was concerned about. I got mine from Sam Ash music store in Richmond Virginia. It is not cheap as most foam goes. Should you get it, you will need an electric carving knife to cut it down to size, just like with any other soft foam.

Sent from my iPad


Original Message------

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

Longitudinal mode? Try needling only the front shoulder (toward the agraffe) deeply at 10:30 and increasingly less deep toward 11:30. Leave the other side unneedled.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec, RPT
http://www.pianosinsideout.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-06-2018 23:52
From: Frank French
Subject: troublesome overtones

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

I would be seriously interested if that worked as I have never been able to truly voice out L mode frequencies. Mask it a little yes, but fix it...no.

Hope it works. I'll try that next time. I have a good candidate right now.

What about side needling that area? 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 17:45
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: troublesome overtones

Longitudinal mode? Try needling only the front shoulder (toward the agraffe) deeply at 10:30 and increasingly less deep toward 11:30. Leave the other side unneedled.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec, RPT
http://www.pianosinsideout.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-06-2018 23:52
From: Frank French
Subject: troublesome overtones

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

On a bit of a side line, assuming for the moment that it is possible to completely voice out L-modes with needling, what in the hammer would cause it in the first place?

And, would it be more or less probable to voice them out in non-lacquered hammers (the original question has to do with Steinway's lacquered hammers, I believe)?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 20:05
From: Peter Grey
Subject: troublesome overtones

I would be seriously interested if that worked as I have never been able to truly voice out L mode frequencies. Mask it a little yes, but fix it...no.

Hope it works. I'll try that next time. I have a good candidate right now.

What about side needling that area?

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 17:45
From: Mario Igrec
Subject: troublesome overtones

Longitudinal mode? Try needling only the front shoulder (toward the agraffe) deeply at 10:30 and increasingly less deep toward 11:30. Leave the other side unneedled.

------------------------------
Mario Igrec, RPT
http://www.pianosinsideout.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-06-2018 23:52
From: Frank French
Subject: troublesome overtones

The piano is an older Steinway Model O, recently restrung, new pinblock, etc.  Overall the sound is good.  The piano owner is bothered by certain overtones .Specifically on striking the note F2 one hears the prominent overtone corresponding to the note C6.  Other notes adjacent to the F2 note produce strong overtone in the corresponding notes four octaves and a fifth above the principal note, though they are less obvious.  No foreign object has been found anywhere inside the case and no loose screws, hinge pins or other metallic objects seem to be causing the unwanted sounds. Dampening all adjacent strings and non-speaking sections does not make it go away.  It sounds like a nodal problem on the order of  an acoustic phenomenon, or perhaps some kind of impedance situation.  Has anyone out there encountered a similar situation?  If so, was a remedy found?

------------------------------
Frank French, RPT
Piano Technician
Tuners Art
frank@tunersart.com
415-731-8611
San Francisco, CA 94122
------------------------------

Original Message------

On a bit of a side line, assuming for the moment that it is possible to completely voice out L-modes with needling, what in the hammer would cause it in the first place?

And, would it be more or less probable to voice them out in non-lacquered hammers (the original question has to do with Steinway's lacquered hammers, I believe)?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

In English, please....

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 21:43
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: troublesome overtones

I was once told that a hammer is a damper. 

Original Message------

On a bit of a side line, assuming for the moment that it is possible to completely voice out L-modes with needling, what in the hammer would cause it in the first place?

And, would it be more or less probable to voice them out in non-lacquered hammers (the original question has to do with Steinway's lacquered hammers, I believe)?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Benjamin,

If you watch James Arledge's video on this subject you will see that L mode has nothing to do with the hammer per se. It is in the string/scaling. It is also not fully understood. In the field though we have nothing else but the hammer to work with. So...we try.

Strike point CAN affect it though, as well as (probably) hammer type...but it's the string.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 23:38
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: troublesome overtones

In English, please....

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 21:43
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: troublesome overtones

I was once told that a hammer is a damper. 

Original Message------

On a bit of a side line, assuming for the moment that it is possible to completely voice out L-modes with needling, what in the hammer would cause it in the first place?

And, would it be more or less probable to voice them out in non-lacquered hammers (the original question has to do with Steinway's lacquered hammers, I believe)?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------

Jim Ellis' monograph Longitudinal Modes in Piano Strings reports in detail on his research, which led to a patent to control longitudinal mode in piano strings. It's available from the PTG store, and is surprisingly easy to read.
I believe James Arledge has the knowledge to apply Ellis' method, and I also recall that if Arledge strings produce longitudinal modes he will replace them.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
(980) 254-7413
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 05-08-2018 10:01
From: Peter Grey
Subject: troublesome overtones

Benjamin,

If you watch James Arledge's video on this subject you will see that L mode has nothing to do with the hammer per se. It is in the string/scaling. It is also not fully understood. In the field though we have nothing else but the hammer to work with. So...we try.

Strike point CAN affect it though, as well as (probably) hammer type...but it's the string.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 23:38
From: Benjamin Sanchez
Subject: troublesome overtones

In English, please....

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net

Original Message:
Sent: 05-07-2018 21:43
From: Chris Chernobieff
Subject: troublesome overtones

I was once told that a hammer is a damper. 

Original Message------

On a bit of a side line, assuming for the moment that it is possible to completely voice out L-modes with needling, what in the hammer would cause it in the first place?

And, would it be more or less probable to voice them out in non-lacquered hammers (the original question has to do with Steinway's lacquered hammers, I believe)?

------------------------------
Benjamin Sanchez
Professional Piano Services
(805)315-8050
www.professional-piano-services.com
BenPianoPro@comcast.net
------------------------------