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Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

  • 1.  Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 01-22-2020 16:03
    A friend has lent on me for some help in dispute with a European non-Steinway accredited non-English speaking technician who replaced the hammers on his 1920s vintage Model M NY Steinway.

    Of course perhaps the technician might have been more familiar with Hamburg Steinway practice but any comments would be appreciated.

    The technician spent an inordinate amount of time on the job, but I have half a feeling that the time really shouldn't have been necessary. My friend has paid a significant proportion to the technician but the technician is pushing to be paid in full.

    I've referred to one problem or other possibly on another thread. But it would be helpful if any Steinway accredited technicians familiar with NY Steinway instruments might be able to give definitive comments here.

    After replacing the hammers, the technician had to spend a great deal of time setting them with shims taking the action in and out each time to accurately centre the striking point on the strings. Advice from here was that he should have done a tracing of the strings as a map, noting the striking line so that he could reproduce the geometry outside the instrument and make adjustments with packing papers with a jig on the bench. This would have saved him hours of wasted time.

    But more serious as far as the customer was concerned is that 
    a. hammers in the top octave are striking too near the agraffes to sound properly - although from memory which is failing I don't remember this being a vital problem when I tuned the instrument last November. Might this have been caused possibly by installing Hamburg hammers into an NY instrument?
    b. the sound of the hammers was hideously and stridently hard. The technician did not appear to be aware of voicing by way of pricking with needles, Reblitz being rather unfamiliar to him, and instead significantly sanded the felt, in places leaving significant grooves on the sides. Many notes were uneven as a result. When I saw their condition I was half minded that they might have been ruined beyond redemption and another set would be necessary. But I steamed the hammers which got them into a workable, if not perfect, condition. Of course one would expect a Steinway instrument with new hammers to aspire to a perfection. . .  and perhaps this sort of thing has been reason for Steinway to be very cagey about supplying parts to non-registered technicians and to brand protection.

    To what extent do Steinway expect a set of hammers for an NY instrument to be voiced on site and by what technique?

    The local Steinway agent covering the area where my friend lives has made comments but as he didn't get the job to replace the hammers in the first place potentially conflicts of interest can be seen to come into play. Accordingly any comments or advice from US technicians familiar with NY Steinway refurbishment would be very helpful indeed.

    Personally I'd have recommended refelting the original hammers in a felt of choice rather than ordering new . . . . Likewise the technician fitted new dampers rather than refurbishing the original, so the instrument has ended up with modern rather triangular profile dampers rather than the original ogee, which in my opinion is rather a shame for a vintage instrument.

    Best wishes and many thanks

    David P

    ------------------------------
    David Pinnegar
    East Grinstead
    +44 1342 850594
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-22-2020 20:05
    Mr. Pinnegar.
    I honestly don't know where to start. Hammers are hammers. New York, Hamburg, Abel, Renner, Ronsen etc. factory of origin makes no difference in how they should be installed. The bore distance and angle for a Model M are well known throughout the industry on this side of the Atlantic and in Europe. If the piano is from New York in the '20s then a 130mm distance from the shank center pin should work. There are no agraffes in the top octave of a model M. The shimming you refer to is normal traveling of the shanks but would normally be fairly minimal unless the shanks and flanges were changed as well. Any new set of hammers from either Steinway factory will require substantial voicing after installation. How long it takes will depend of the level of experience of the voicer. Fitting the hammers to the strings is a crucial part of the job. I've done more sets than most have and find that spending 6 or 8 hours in total isn't unusual. With Hamburg hammers one should probably use a combination of shaping (filing) and needling with minimal application of hardeners usually in the top octave only. The techniques described in Andre Oorebeek's book fit well with these hammers. I am not a fan of steaming Steinway hammers full stop. From your report it seems the hammers were installed by someone unaware of new hammer voicing protocols. Perhaps your efforts have given the owner the voice they were looking for. If not, perhaps a visit by someone with training by the Hamburg factory would be helpful.

    ------------------------------
    Karl Roeder
    Pompano Beach FL
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 01-22-2020 20:39
    Dear Karl

    Thanks so much for your pointers. Very helpful.

    Please forgive amnesia - of course with duplex scaling it's a pressure bar up there. Senility strikes and a couple of months since I met the instrument ;-)

    It was not just the hammers but the shanks and flanges also which were replaced.

    The instrument isn't entirely helped by being in a very bright acoustic with marble or ceramic floor, no carpet and few soft furnishings. So softening down was important to achieve.

    Thanks so much for mentioning Andre Oorebeek - this looks a wonderful reference and whilst steam has done wonders for some unpleasantly hard instruments I've met clearly understanding of more sophisticated methods is most helpful.

    If anyone else has thoughts they will be particularly helpful.

    It wasn't just the visually grooved condition of the hammers in which the technician left them but in practice they were hideously uneven in tone as well as visually. My subsequent steaming has gone a long way to masking the initial unevenness and making the best of otherwise a ghastly job.

    Many thanks and best wishes

    David P
    -- 
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 01-23-2020 11:53
    Go to Renner USA website, they have excellent instructions on voicing German hammers posted on their site. It doesn't sound like the installer did any needling, just put them on right out of the box and let it go. You should have had a Steinway man do the work. If he installed NY hammer, then they would need shaping and perhaps some lacquering as well as needling. There's no way around it, you've got to learn voicing if you're going to service pianos. Just tuning is not going to do it. It's time for you to learn.

    I would not steam new hammers, you can ruin them and cause narrowing and puckering. You may find that you have to file them again afterwards. Steaming should only be done very mildly and not what you need doing there from what you post. 

    As for the treble...take the cheek blocks out
    and try sliding the treble of the action in
    and out to determining where the best strick
    spot it. You can put a post it on the case where the key slip fits and mark where the action is just after you take the blocks out...slide the action in and out and mark that position on the post it. Measure the difference between the marks. This will tell
    you how many mm you need to move the treble hammers forward or back. You may find that you only need to move a few and not the whole section. YOu may also find that you need to put a "bow" in the next treble section down.
    Use the same marking system to see.

    For many Steinways the factory setting for most of the hammers works just fine. So start with that. (130mm)....

    You may need to remount a few hammers here and
    there in other sections if the original installer didn't line them up properly.

    (They sometimes do this at the factory, although with their "jigs" they have this
    down to minimal for current production.)

     Find a Steinway tech at the local dealer and take some lessons! American hammers and American pianos ARE different than Euro pianos, that's for sure. The latest NY hammers require a lot less lacquering, but do require
    filing and voicing.

     A new adventure, David. 


    --
     Richard Adkins 
     Keyboard Tuning and Maintenance
     Curator of Instruments 
             
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  • 5.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 01-26-2020 14:54
    It might be appropriate to start a new thread about debunking myths, for the protection of competent technicians doing a very professional job . . . but in the area of concern in this thread we're looking at a non-English speaking country where egos and self-sung accolades exceed levels of skills, training and practice, where if in doubt people are too proud to ask. It's also an area where the interests of selling new pianos overtake maintenance or refurbishment of older instruments, and in tuning I've seen a depressing number which could be so much better with basic attention. So it's a toxic recipe leading to unmaintained instruments on the one hand and on the other work done assumed to be at top level which is accepted because no-one locally knows better and those doing it consider themselves so expert as not to need to ask anyone for advice.

    This is also an area where myths can flourish.

    For instance a Steinway Artist from another language speaking country (welcome to Europe and its division of scholarship by language) is of the opinion that no-one voices new Steinway hammers . . . and that needling is done only by people with not enough to do. That is certainly different from US practice as others expert in the US have talked about here. On the other hand, some years ago for my Bechstein we got the hammers refelted by Abel with their then Premium long fibre felt, and they went into the instrument without need for voicing at all, only regulation of the action being necessary. The result was nothing short of superb and the Abel hammers required "playing in" but have not required voicing of any sort. So different approaches might be equally valid, or perhaps in different circumstances.

    My friend who has asked for advice faces two issues - 
    1. What to do with the unsatisfactory technician asking for 2nd instalment of payment.
    2. How to approach getting the instrument right.

    Issue 1: demand for payment for unsatisfactory work
    a. The technician had-a-DIY-go at voicing using sanding or filing alone, without needling, and is wholly unaware of needling practice. (Thanks so much to Karl Roeder for pointing to Andre Oorebeek's book which I am getting and which will be invaluable when I meet instruments in the future). Perhaps not needling might not be an absolute reason for complaint, but the hammers are audibly uneven and on inspection there are examples of adjacent hammers from which 1 or 2mm of felt has been visibly removed more than their next-door neighbours and score lines are visible on the sides of the hammers. It looks as though he had taken on a job that he didn't know properly how to do, leading to a result that's audible.

    b. The technician did not take a tracing of the strings and mark striking points, suggesting that he isn't aware of Steinway practise, certainly not to be able to do the work efficiently with a jig on a bench rather than having to take the action in and out.

    c. He used the excuse that I had tuned the instrument and not him for not getting the voicing even. In my opinion that's a red-herring diversion to distract from his lack of familiarity with needle voicing.

    d. His estimate specifically stated 
    Set of hammers to the measure of S&S New York Mod M ($500 approx)
    Set of hammer shanks with rollers and olives S&S New York ($700 approx)
    Set of dampers S&S Original Mod M. ($240 approx)

    My friend assumed that this meant he was getting original S&S hammers etc from New York. He had spoken to the S&S Yew York office who said, apparently, that it was important to get NY hammers for an American Steinway. (There's another of these issues for myth busting . . . but seeing the result of incompetent local work I can quite see why Steinways have adopted their very unpopular policy about refurbishments recently.)

    I've explained to the friend that "to the measure of" is ambiguous. The technician purchased them directly from Renners.

    However with regard to the dampers the original ogee ( shaped as } ) dampers were removed, not refurbished, and replaced by a rounded triangular shape, certainly not 1925 vintage Original Model M.

    That gives the game away that the instrument is not now original, and presumably under Steinway's new policy they would object to it being re-sold as a Steinway. That intervention has potentially devalued the instrument.

    e. Background - the friend told me that he wasn't being a cheapskate here, getting the work done by someone submitting a lower estimate for the work. The local Steinway agent told him that he had had a very good technician, who had recently left, and he was having to take back one who wasn't so good. The local Steinway agent is a true gentleman. In this part of the non-English speaking world, pianos are no longer manufactured and finding appropriate skills is a challenge.

    - - - - - - - -

    Issue 2 - Where do we go from here?

    Were I to have met my friend a few months earlier than I did, I'd have recommended sending the old hammers off to Abel to be re-felted. Paper positioning slips would have remained as were and the hammers would have been able to go back in just as they were, with only action regulation necessary. End of story.

    But unfortunately we now have installed some hammers from which varying amounts of felt have been inexpertly removed.

    a. We could look for someone else within striking distance who is familiar with needling and who might be able to rescue the current new set of hammers. Whilst with textbook instruction I might be tempted to do something, I'd prefer to be practising on an instrument that didn't matter, not a Steinway.

    b. My friend could buy a new set of hammers as from Steinway New York, as he has been advised, which would set him back around $5000 and the local Steinway agent would be happy for his technician to fit them. They might still need needle voicing if needling is standard US practise.

    c. We could send the existing hammers off to Abel for re-felting.

    Thoughts so far are really appreciated and any further such and advice in these circumstances are really appreciated.

    Best wishes

    David P
    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-27-2020 10:41
    David,

    This is an unfortunately sticky situation. My reading of it tends to make me suspicious of the entire amount of work, installation, regulating, voicing...everything. If I were faced with a similar situation I would have to recommend starting again from "scratch".  Trying to fix someone else's mess-ups can turn into a disaster that comes back to haunt you later. (Funny...I thought everyone on that side of the pond knew what they were doing...😉).

    This is just an opinion of course. 

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 01-27-2020 13:13
    Thanks so much for all help and advice from members both here and sent privately.

    In the country concerned where no piano making is done any more the official title of a piano technician is translated as "Maker of Pianos"! This can then, as here, lead to the blind leading the blind and the self appointed experts, in rarity, being worshipped.

    In contrast the regular contributions made to the PTG forum demonstrate an alive industry in the USA where expertise flourishes and is encouraged.

    Amongst various pieces of advice, bearing in mind the technician installed Renner hammers, was directing me to Renner USA's instructions  https://rennerusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Selecting-and-Voicing-the-Renner-Hammer.pdf  which are of particular note for anyone coming to read this thread archived in the future. This document is very specific on what to do and how Renner hammers are expected to be treated upon installation. Filing should be done on the key side of the hammer, the technician in this case did so and roughly on the outside, and hadn't a clue about needle voicing. 

    There are a number of dilemmas.

    Unless I dare to experiment myself, which is needless to say not first option, we need to find a competent technician in the country if the existing hammers are to be rescued. Perhaps they may. The uneven filing or sanding is only 1-2mm but it's in the treble section where there's less felt to play with. I've put feelers out to see who might be around within 100 miles.

    The other factor is that my forte, and passion, is tuning, and through my tuning to give musicians a better reward to listening to the sound they are making and the better communication of emotion to audiences. If successful this will encourage a whole reason to record the whole repertoire again, and a significant stimulus to enthusiasm for the instrument. As this particular piano is around 800 miles from me, and I'm there for comparatively short times, I'd rather spend what piano time I have there (un)tuning instruments to infect musicians with new enthusiasm rather than spending a lot of time on one instrument.

    One member advises Renner Blue hammers which apparently need minimal voicing. To my own knowledge Abel are an alternative and the advice of the member is that with these is that they come soft, and play in becoming harder over 100 hours of playing. In fact at the current rate of playing of this instrument that would probably be four years, which gives us time to track down a competent voicer, or for me to learn, should that hardness become unacceptable. I'd be tempted to send the existing hammers to Abel for re-covering therefore.

    My personal choice would be their Natural felt - see their Guidance Notes https://www.abel-pianoparts.de/index.php?index=1&lng=en&menuid=62
    Whether I'd go for the soft or medium pressure, I'm not sure, and whether asking for their Steinway impregnation service, again I'm not sure. 

    The piano lives in a generally dry atmosphere and is in a room probably of only 5 or 6 times the square footage of the piano itself, with hard acoustic and minimal soft furnishings. So one really doesn't want Yamaha hard sound.

    By approaching from this route we avoid issues of re-fitting hammers to the instrument and if the paper slips are in place, alignment too.

    By the way, the new dampers fitted are triangular in shape rather than ogee - { - . Have Steinways ever used the triangular shape or is it an alien importation into the instrument.

    Very many thanks to all indeed.

    Best wishes

    David P
     





    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-28-2020 11:50
    I'm confused by the "ogee" description on dampers. Can anyone enlighten me?

    Pwg

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 01-28-2020 12:03
    They look like this:  }   as opposed to this
    in other brands: ]  ....

    OG is a router/shaper profile....I guess...it's not quite the right term...but maybe is what they call it in the UK?

    So what David is saying is the tech put on modern dampers that are NOT Steinway shaped dampers....

    That's my take on it... 

    --
     Richard Adkins 
     Keyboard Tuning and Maintenance
     Curator of Instruments 
             
    Notice:
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 01-28-2020 15:02
    Yes - ogee is a term in the building trade applied to the shape of guttering as well as other things -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogee  makes interesting reading. Where on earth the term came from I've no idea. 

    In the UK we have major parts suppliers Fletcher & Newman and Hecksher, and neither actually carry dampers in their catalogues. A google search for "grand piano dampers" doesn't turn up any suppliers of dampers - but ogee shape are probably the ones we're most familiar with. Where the technician in this case got these dampers from, goodness knows, and why he didn't simply apply new felts to the original dampers is anyone's guess.

    On my last visit to the region, a friend took me to a youth hostel where they had a couple of pianos to tune, but one turned out to need a rescue job. It was in a dance studio hideously out of tune, and the lid had been unhinged, the music stand removed and in a corner, and at least half a dozen dampers had been removed from the instrument as a matter of vandalism. They are D shape profiles and if anyone can point me to a source of sets of dampers I might give a quote to the administration. It was a Paris make, by the name of Gaveau and if I never see another Gaveau in my life I won't be disappointed. Most are small boudoir specials, with great casework and stringing scales which are atrocious. But this was a larger Gaveau grand of some potential. I made bitter complaint to the establishment about the treatment of their instrument and made the case that if they were to encourage the arts why should dancers be deprived of becoming more discerning about the sound they hear and so the music. Why should arts be compartmentalised so that a dancer is wholly oblivious to music? Of course this is a secondary and tertiary matter to the original subject of the thread but I know that there are many ambassadors here for music of like mind.

    In this latter case, it was a day of "holiday" which I decided to devote to tuning, and wasn't paid - it was entirely non-commercial. But it's only by raising perspectives of people that things are possible that perhaps we can get them to devote budget to things. Again, the state of instruments in the region is partly a lack of willing or competent technicians in the area willing to do repairs to keep instruments going at often modest cost, in preference to selling new instruments at high cost and probably larger profits for less effort. No doubt there are such tensions between technicians and retailers everywhere but in the region concerned it's the ultimate. This was actually the reason why the friend of my Steinway hammer friend started getting me to tune for all his pupils as when going around I'd see small adjustments necessary and say "no problem", transforming an apparent hopeless case into a workable and in some cases quite a fine instrument.

    Apologies for ramblings.

    Best wishes

    David P  

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 02-27-2020 19:56
    Thanks to all who've given me guidance in recent months. The mystery is now finally solved!

    We met up with the local Steinway agent's technician today and I went to tune the instrument before he arrived as winter humidity and temperature changes had wrought havoc in that department. Knowing that the faulty technician had used Renner hammers whilst tuning I noted they were orange. A quick browse for Renner colours indicated that orange were Bosendorfer . , , and that Steinway should be purple. So the technician who did the renovation used Bosendorfer spec hammers on a Steinway. 

    The Steinway agent's technician was senior and utterly wonderful. "Old-school" and had worked properly rebuilding instruments in his time, so knew everything there was to know. Of course he picked up on them not being Steinway hammers and commented that the technician was a "meutrier", a murderer even of the inappropriate hammers that he'd inserted.

    He then went through the measurements of hammer to string, and of course it was way off the 47mm spec, and measurements of key depth etc and it's quite clear that the self proclaimed expert who'd done the work was nothing of the sort and unfamiliar with the idea that Steinway have precise specifidations.

    I joked saying that in knowing nothing, I'd been able to ask, and THANKS to friends and members here, discovered quite a lot but of course a technician posing as God's gift to the piano world can't possibly ask anyone else about anything for fear of exposing his impoverishment.

    Perhaps in due course it might be an idea to start a thread about the four approaches to hammer voicing so that no-one has any excuses for murdering felts and so that no-one need be taken in by a technician too proud to ask of colleagues. With the warmth of reception by experienced members here and knowledge made freely available, there is really no excuse for anyone meeting a task for the first time not to ask for guidance, confirmation or caution. 

    Best wishes and many thanks to all,

    David P

    On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 7:12 PM David Pinnegar <antespam@gmail.com> wrote:
    Thanks so much for all help and advice from members both here and sent privately.

    In the country concerned where no piano making is done any more the official title of a piano technician is translated as "Maker of Pianos"! This can then, as here, lead to the blind leading the blind and the self appointed experts, in rarity, being worshipped.

    In contrast the regular contributions made to the PTG forum demonstrate an alive industry in the USA where expertise flourishes and is encouraged.

    Amongst various pieces of advice, bearing in mind the technician installed Renner hammers, was directing me to Renner USA's instructions  https://rennerusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Selecting-and-Voicing-the-Renner-Hammer.pdf  which are of particular note for anyone coming to read this thread archived in the future. This document is very specific on what to do and how Renner hammers are expected to be treated upon installation. Filing should be done on the key side of the hammer, the technician in this case did so and roughly on the outside, and hadn't a clue about needle voicing. 

    There are a number of dilemmas.

    Unless I dare to experiment myself, which is needless to say not first option, we need to find a competent technician in the country if the existing hammers are to be rescued. Perhaps they may. The uneven filing or sanding is only 1-2mm but it's in the treble section where there's less felt to play with. I've put feelers out to see who might be around within 100 miles.

    The other factor is that my forte, and passion, is tuning, and through my tuning to give musicians a better reward to listening to the sound they are making and the better communication of emotion to audiences. If successful this will encourage a whole reason to record the whole repertoire again, and a significant stimulus to enthusiasm for the instrument. As this particular piano is around 800 miles from me, and I'm there for comparatively short times, I'd rather spend what piano time I have there (un)tuning instruments to infect musicians with new enthusiasm rather than spending a lot of time on one instrument.

    One member advises Renner Blue hammers which apparently need minimal voicing. To my own knowledge Abel are an alternative and the advice of the member is that with these is that they come soft, and play in becoming harder over 100 hours of playing. In fact at the current rate of playing of this instrument that would probably be four years, which gives us time to track down a competent voicer, or for me to learn, should that hardness become unacceptable. I'd be tempted to send the existing hammers to Abel for re-covering therefore.

    My personal choice would be their Natural felt - see their Guidance Notes https://www.abel-pianoparts.de/index.php?index=1&lng=en&menuid=62
    Whether I'd go for the soft or medium pressure, I'm not sure, and whether asking for their Steinway impregnation service, again I'm not sure. 

    The piano lives in a generally dry atmosphere and is in a room probably of only 5 or 6 times the square footage of the piano itself, with hard acoustic and minimal soft furnishings. So one really doesn't want Yamaha hard sound.

    By approaching from this route we avoid issues of re-fitting hammers to the instrument and if the paper slips are in place, alignment too.

    By the way, the new dampers fitted are triangular in shape rather than ogee - { - . Have Steinways ever used the triangular shape or is it an alien importation into the instrument.

    Very many thanks to all indeed.

    Best wishes

    David P
     





    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594


    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 02-27-2020 20:24
    Installing new pre-hung hammers there is a lot to do for proper fit. You must travel them for proper vertical travel, spacing is critical. Burning in the shafts, fitting to the strings, voicing. At times going back, checking each item, occasionally making more adjustments, refining each element. Its all about getting the hammer shanks perfect, alignment perfect, strike point perfect. It is not a fast job. Talk to the hammer manufacturers to obtain the sound you are wanting. Watch hammer weight carefully.

    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Gegner
    Tipton IN
    765-860-5900
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 02-27-2020 20:49
    Yes - the Steinway agent's technician said that there were two options - starting from scratch or trying to rescue the present job. Not even the rollers are in the exact right place for a Model M.

    Starting from scratch will mean downpayments to the original technician down the drain but I'm counselling that with a Steinway it's really important to start from scratch, with Steinway parts installed by a Steinway competent technician.

    I've read within the past 6 months resentment in the trade by competent technicians about Steinway being funny about Steinways being sold as Steinways if having been subject to independent work but examples such as this rather reinforce Steinway's assertion that if it ain't Steinway originated parts . . . it's not a Steinway.

    I share experiences and notes with Michael Gamble and am infinitely grateful to him for much inspiration. And he very helpfully came back to me in the way he's always helpful, with great guidance - and for the purpose of anyone in the future being able to check up on whether an instrument has been serviced to specification:
    Action regulation of S&S models are all the same. Different for the key regulation. The S&S Models for key regulation are divided in two. Models 'S' - 'B' (which includes 'M') are factory set to 63mm whilst the Models 'C' and 'D' are set to 65mm. In the non-depressed state the #'s should project 12mm above the naturals. There's a 'key-arching' where the middle keys are 2mm above the end keys. Hammer blow is the same on all Models i.e. 47mm. Check distance is 15mm. Letoff is 1mm and Drop is 2mm. At rest position the hammer shanks should be 4mm above the hammer rest felt.(clearance). Depressing the bass end keys lightly, the Letoff and Drop should be equal to half the diameter of the relevant strings - because the strings are so thick at the Bass end! Key dipis factory set on the 'M' at 9.5mm. Adjustment here is by insertion of paper or card washers under the green front-rail baizes (mine are white conical baizes - but them I'm different!) After-touch (the distance covered by the returning key following hammer Letoff to the state of rest in the Drop position should be 1.5mm. To achieve this the key dip may possibly measure up to just under 10mm. The Drop measurement is obtained by adjustment of the Drop screw so that each hammer when depressing the keys will drop back approx. 1mm. below the strings. Then there's the Repetition Spring to think about: should the hammer, after the key has been struck be released from check and bounce too rapidly toward the string this spring should be slackened in its tension. This is done with a spring bender. In the event the return is too sluggish, the repetition spring needs to be strengthened - again by using the spring bender.  

    The Steinway agent's technician, by the way, checked the bridge with an E shaped metal tool, and presumably the angle of the string to the angle of the bridge. Is that checking for the correct soundboard curvature and downbearing? What sort of measurements might one be looking at here in terms of a good and a bad instrument?

    Best wishes

    David P 




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  • 14.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 02-28-2020 12:19
    From what you say, it sounds like they were just
    mounted and left as they came out of the box.

    There's so much more to be done.

    The Steinway tech could try a few sample
    hammers to see if they will do. Aren't you
    curious? 

    This would save your friend a lot of money.
    FWIW...

    The knuckle placement may have needed to
    be further than 1925 factory specs to provide
    proper leverage for heavier Renner hammers.
    I wouldn't get all bent out of shape on that, unless
    the piano feels too heavy. If so then he put
    shanks on that are not correct for the
    German hammers.

    Did he return the original old hammers? 

    You can use Renner protocols (which you've already downloaded) to voice the Boesendorfer hammers.

    Then you can weigh the costs/benefits.
    Maybe it will require more work than it's worth?

    Your Steinway tech can tell you.

    Getting all new hammers, etc from NY Steinway would be
    great if cost is no object. Remember they can come
    mounted from the factory (for a hefty price)on
    new Genuine NY Steinway shanks and flanges.
    The rollers will be further out than originals.

    You may need to adjust the dip... I think .040 is a figure
    sometimes used.  I have 3 Steinway dip blocks. You
    need proper jack clearance when the key bottoms.
    This can be refined within Steinway parameters.

    You must use NY Steinway voicing technique not Renner
    protocol on NY Steinway hammers, if you order from NY!



    Sometimes, given all the hammer options, etc...there
    are just a lot of decisions to make. 

    Best of luck, though....

    ------------------------------
    Richard Adkins
    Piano Technician
    Coe College
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 02-29-2020 12:48
    I see I miss stated the dip block I have from Steinway. It is .40 inches. This may have caused some confusion. My bad!
    I was not writing about dip. That's another thing that can vary.

    I have 3 dip blocks from Steinway .390", .40" and .42". On the back they are all stamped Steinway. 

    I believe the .42 was for parts Steinway was using before retooling back in the 2000s.

    I believe they were using Renner shanks and flanges prior to that time, but had just
    retooled their machery. Since then they've retooled again.
    So, I'm told.

    The hammers were lighter than the current ones but required more lacquer. It was quite a process.

    .40 is what they are using now (unless that's changed) and .390 was for the older actions, like your M.

    I believe the metric specs you posted are a good
    starting point, but you may need to make an adjustment of .01 deeper in some cases to get the others to work. Perhaps
    Hamburg instruments do always use those figures but NY Steinways are variable. Your friend's is a vintage
    instrument.

    String height can vary w/NY Steinway grands.

    Anyhow, sorry for any confusion on my dip figures.

    I stand corrected.

    Anyhow, it appears you friend is in good hands now. 

    All these things will be taken into account, no doubt.

    I'm hoping for a good outcome for your friend.
     
    Richard

    ------------------------------
    Richard Adkins
    Piano Technician
    Coe College
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Proper procedure for replacing NY Steinway hammers

    Posted 02-29-2020 13:35
    Dear Richard and other friends

    Sorry for not being on the ball in terms of answering. I'm spread thinly between different responsibilities.

    The original tech did not return the original hammers and perhaps he might be asked to do so, but I doubt his willingness to cooperate.

    Rescuing the current  hammers would be an interesting "experiment" if one had the time but really it's going to result in a second-rate job. The felts have been filed and sanded, unevenly, bodged, requiring loss of more material in order to put them right - and the rollers out of position then are the cherry on the cake. To put it right, perfectly to standards, will take significant time, and still end up with second best. Not only is it an instrument of the Steinway marque, with whatever accolade is appropriate or not beyond other brands, but the instrument is used for professional practice, occasional masterclasses for competition students. I don't live nearby but visit for a couple of days here and there half a dozen times a year as required, so undertaking anything beyond diagnosis isn't practical unfortunately. Better to identify good expertise and leave the job in capable hands. The Steinway agent's technician probably has best part of 50 years experience. In the circumstances . . . ;-)

    Something that I'm curious about is that from my own experience and in knowledge of how cooperative Abel hammers are in their behaviour in bedding in without needing significant work, and with their suitability of tone in a very hard domestic acoustic, I'd be tempted to recommend re-felting by Abel. Mentioning this to the Steinway technician he was insistent that they should be NY sourced Steinway Renner.

    On the subject of hammers and tone, yesterday I had an amusing experience. I went to tune a Hamburg Steinway C belonging to a well known musical celebrity, a singer songwriter among big names. Whenever I've heard him he's not been particularly known for sensitive pianism, although I know he's capable of it as he and I share the same revulsion to the playing of a Canadian lady who's well known for playing Bach. (I heard her playing Mendelssohn, and it might just as much have been Prokofiev). His instrument has really rather or particularly hard hammers. I suggested to him that perhaps they might benefit from being toned down slightly, and had to go a distance away whilst he was playing it. How was I to express the matter politely? I said that it really was a performing instrument, one that could cut through other sounds. He said that he liked it this way - because it sounded fine without his hearing aids in! 

    OUCH! He then commented that with his hearing aids the instrument was rather harsh. 

    That instrument has rather a history - it was the one upon which Princess Diana had learned at school.

    Best wishes

    David P


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