Pianotech

Rockley Family Foundation - I just received notice of a "Piano Sale" at a local university through an arrangement with this organization which has IRS 501(c)(3) status. How convenient that the Rockley family also owns a piano dealership in Colorado. I understand how these "Piano Sales" work. I don't like them but I accept that they exist. Piano stores have a right to sell their products like anyone else. But what advantage does this Rockley Family Foundation have that other non-501(c)(3) piano dealers do not? I'm all for free enterprise but I believe in a level playing field that doesn't get an unfair helping hand from the government. What it seems like to me is that the Rockleys have found a way to sell pianos and eliminate a large share of the taxes they would pay on their profit.

This is a quote from the advertisement I received announcing the sale (in an asterisk/disclaimer in small print at the bottom of the page:

"If the portion of the purchase price is considered a charitable contribution to the Rockley Family Foundation, used to support the [-------] University music program, the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased. You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Any comments? Any experience with the Rockleys?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

Donn-

You have learned something about how college "benefit" piano sales operate.

I think this case is probably more typical than unusual.

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 09:51
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Rockley Family Foundation - I just received notice of a "Piano Sale" at a local university through an arrangement with this organization which has IRS 501(c)(3) status. How convenient that the Rockley family also owns a piano dealership in Colorado. I understand how these "Piano Sales" work. I don't like them but I accept that they exist. Piano stores have a right to sell their products like anyone else. But what advantage does this Rockley Family Foundation have that other non-501(c)(3) piano dealers do not? I'm all for free enterprise but I believe in a level playing field that doesn't get an unfair helping hand from the government. What it seems like to me is that the Rockleys have found a way to sell pianos and eliminate a large share of the taxes they would pay on their profit.

This is a quote from the advertisement I received announcing the sale (in an asterisk/disclaimer in small print at the bottom of the page:

"If the portion of the purchase price is considered a charitable contribution to the Rockley Family Foundation, used to support the [-------] University music program, the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased. You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Any comments? Any experience with the Rockleys?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

Wim,

Why is discussion of this topic inappropriate?  We're small businesses who
collect and pay sales tax, and pay income tax.  Why not learn something about
another small business's tax strategy?  And many of us are occasionally asked
for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale. 
Censorship sucks, whether it's imposed by authority or by ourselves.  Let's talk
about it.

Mike

Mike

Since you moved the discussion to this list, I'll give you an answer. The issue dealing the the "ethical" manner of the university sale is different than the practical aspects of one. As most of us have discovered, there are some good things and bad things about a university sale. The good things are that the school gets the use of the instruments for a year. And in some cases, a dealer has made some concession by providing the school with some quality pianos at a much reduced price.

On the other side of the coin is the implied deception on the part of the dealership. Customers are led to believe that all the pianos for sale at the school were used by the school when, in fact, only a small percentage have. And thus, they think that the small profit from all sale of all the pianos are somehow benefiting the school, when, in fact, it is not. But that is not our concern.

What is our concern is the answer to the statement, "And many of us are occasionally asked for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale".  The advice you can give a customers is this. The pianos offered for sale at a university sale are no better, or worse, than the pianos offered for sale by the dealer in the store, and for the same price.

As said, it is not our concern whether the school and/or dealer is acting ethically or even legally. That's for the school, state and/or federal gov'mnt to figure out. All we need to be concerned with is the quality of the pianos.


-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 09:51
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Rockley Family Foundation - I just received notice of a "Piano Sale" at a local university through an arrangement with this organization which has IRS 501(c)(3) status. How convenient that the Rockley family also owns a piano dealership in Colorado. I understand how these "Piano Sales" work. I don't like them but I accept that they exist. Piano stores have a right to sell their products like anyone else. But what advantage does this Rockley Family Foundation have that other non-501(c)(3) piano dealers do not? I'm all for free enterprise but I believe in a level playing field that doesn't get an unfair helping hand from the government. What it seems like to me is that the Rockleys have found a way to sell pianos and eliminate a large share of the taxes they would pay on their profit.

This is a quote from the advertisement I received announcing the sale (in an asterisk/disclaimer in small print at the bottom of the page:

"If the portion of the purchase price is considered a charitable contribution to the Rockley Family Foundation, used to support the [-------] University music program, the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased. You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Any comments? Any experience with the Rockleys?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

Wim,

With all due respect, I say BS to your notion that this is not our concern. I don't like piano/university sales because I also sell pianos. But that's purely jealousy on my part: I wish that I could sell some of MY pianos. No, what ticks me off is not that the university gets something for nothing (and that's ok - once again, I wish that I could get something for nothing), but rather that a piano DEALER is making a profit via a 501(c) deception (in my opinion) that is misleading the public - remember them: they are OUR clients - into believing that they are making a tax-deductible donation toward music in the venue sponsoring the sale. According to the footnote which I included in my original post, this "donation" isn't quite as large as it would seem to be. Is this just another way of doing business? Yes. Is it misleading? Yes. Is it unethical? Methinks yes. Is it illegal? We'll probably never know.

University sales are a part of our piano business culture. I accept that. I am only questioning why a piano dealer("Rockley Music Center") can sell pianos at a university sale and call themselves "Rockley Family Foundation." Doesn't that smell as fishy to you as it does to me?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 17:25
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Wim,

Why is discussion of this topic inappropriate?  We're small businesses who
collect and pay sales tax, and pay income tax.  Why not learn something about
another small business's tax strategy?  And many of us are occasionally asked
for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale. 
Censorship sucks, whether it's imposed by authority or by ourselves.  Let's talk
about it.

Mike

Mike

Since you moved the discussion to this list, I'll give you an answer. The issue dealing the the "ethical" manner of the university sale is different than the practical aspects of one. As most of us have discovered, there are some good things and bad things about a university sale. The good things are that the school gets the use of the instruments for a year. And in some cases, a dealer has made some concession by providing the school with some quality pianos at a much reduced price.

On the other side of the coin is the implied deception on the part of the dealership. Customers are led to believe that all the pianos for sale at the school were used by the school when, in fact, only a small percentage have. And thus, they think that the small profit from all sale of all the pianos are somehow benefiting the school, when, in fact, it is not. But that is not our concern.

What is our concern is the answer to the statement, "And many of us are occasionally asked for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale".  The advice you can give a customers is this. The pianos offered for sale at a university sale are no better, or worse, than the pianos offered for sale by the dealer in the store, and for the same price.

As said, it is not our concern whether the school and/or dealer is acting ethically or even legally. That's for the school, state and/or federal gov'mnt to figure out. All we need to be concerned with is the quality of the pianos.


-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 09:51
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Rockley Family Foundation - I just received notice of a "Piano Sale" at a local university through an arrangement with this organization which has IRS 501(c)(3) status. How convenient that the Rockley family also owns a piano dealership in Colorado. I understand how these "Piano Sales" work. I don't like them but I accept that they exist. Piano stores have a right to sell their products like anyone else. But what advantage does this Rockley Family Foundation have that other non-501(c)(3) piano dealers do not? I'm all for free enterprise but I believe in a level playing field that doesn't get an unfair helping hand from the government. What it seems like to me is that the Rockleys have found a way to sell pianos and eliminate a large share of the taxes they would pay on their profit.

This is a quote from the advertisement I received announcing the sale (in an asterisk/disclaimer in small print at the bottom of the page:

"If the portion of the purchase price is considered a charitable contribution to the Rockley Family Foundation, used to support the [-------] University music program, the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased. You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Any comments? Any experience with the Rockleys?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

"With all due respect, I say BS to your notion that this is not our concern.  I don't like piano/university sales because I also sell pianos. But that's purely jealousy on my part"

Donn

You hit the nail on the head. As you state, you're the one that is jealous that the dealer is selling pianos at the university. But that doesn't make it "our" concern. This is "your" concern.

When I was selling pianos in St. Louis, l competing against three other large dealers. But when one of them would hold a university sale, I wasn't jealous. If anything, I was envious, wishing I could do the same thing. But since there wasn't anything I could do, I let it go. In fact, one time I was actually able to sell one of my pianos to a customer who called me for advice. I gave her the facts about the sale, and asked if she would like to look at some of my pianos. I also got quite a few calls from piano owners who bought pianos from these sales to tune them, because they didn't think the "university" would service the "used" piano they bought. So in the long run, I made money, too, from the university sale.

As far as the legality is concerned. Don't worry, you can bet your bottom dollar that the university and the dealer have convered their asses. You think you're the only one who doesn't like this university sale? How many other dealers are there in your area? If they are anything like the dealers in St. Louis, each one of them probably had their lawyers look at this with a fine toothed comb. When I closed my store, one of the dealers held a "going out of business" sale for me, using his products, in addition to mine. Another dealers sent a formal "protest" to me and the dealer, claiming we didn't do the sale according to state law.

Is it ethical? It does have a slight anchovies smell to it, but then some people like anchovies.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 20:41
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation


Wim,

With all due respect, I say BS to your notion that this is not our concern. I don't like piano/university sales because I also sell pianos. But that's purely jealousy on my part: I wish that I could sell some of MY pianos. No, what ticks me off is not that the university gets something for nothing (and that's ok - once again, I wish that I could get something for nothing), but rather that a piano DEALER is making a profit via a 501(c) deception (in my opinion) that is misleading the public - remember them: they are OUR clients - into believing that they are making a tax-deductible donation toward music in the venue sponsoring the sale. According to the footnote which I included in my original post, this "donation" isn't quite as large as it would seem to be. Is this just another way of doing business? Yes. Is it misleading? Yes. Is it unethical? Methinks yes. Is it illegal? We'll probably never know.

University sales are a part of our piano business culture. I accept that. I am only questioning why a piano dealer("Rockley Music Center") can sell pianos at a university sale and call themselves "Rockley Family Foundation." Doesn't that smell as fishy to you as it does to me?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 17:25
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Wim,

Why is discussion of this topic inappropriate?  We're small businesses who
collect and pay sales tax, and pay income tax.  Why not learn something about
another small business's tax strategy?  And many of us are occasionally asked
for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale. 
Censorship sucks, whether it's imposed by authority or by ourselves.  Let's talk
about it.

Mike

Mike

Since you moved the discussion to this list, I'll give you an answer. The issue dealing the the "ethical" manner of the university sale is different than the practical aspects of one. As most of us have discovered, there are some good things and bad things about a university sale. The good things are that the school gets the use of the instruments for a year. And in some cases, a dealer has made some concession by providing the school with some quality pianos at a much reduced price.

On the other side of the coin is the implied deception on the part of the dealership. Customers are led to believe that all the pianos for sale at the school were used by the school when, in fact, only a small percentage have. And thus, they think that the small profit from all sale of all the pianos are somehow benefiting the school, when, in fact, it is not. But that is not our concern.

What is our concern is the answer to the statement, "And many of us are occasionally asked for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale".  The advice you can give a customers is this. The pianos offered for sale at a university sale are no better, or worse, than the pianos offered for sale by the dealer in the store, and for the same price.

As said, it is not our concern whether the school and/or dealer is acting ethically or even legally. That's for the school, state and/or federal gov'mnt to figure out. All we need to be concerned with is the quality of the pianos.


-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 09:51
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Rockley Family Foundation - I just received notice of a "Piano Sale" at a local university through an arrangement with this organization which has IRS 501(c)(3) status. How convenient that the Rockley family also owns a piano dealership in Colorado. I understand how these "Piano Sales" work. I don't like them but I accept that they exist. Piano stores have a right to sell their products like anyone else. But what advantage does this Rockley Family Foundation have that other non-501(c)(3) piano dealers do not? I'm all for free enterprise but I believe in a level playing field that doesn't get an unfair helping hand from the government. What it seems like to me is that the Rockleys have found a way to sell pianos and eliminate a large share of the taxes they would pay on their profit.

This is a quote from the advertisement I received announcing the sale (in an asterisk/disclaimer in small print at the bottom of the page:

"If the portion of the purchase price is considered a charitable contribution to the Rockley Family Foundation, used to support the [-------] University music program, the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased. You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Any comments? Any experience with the Rockleys?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

Jealousy, envy, whatever......

Wim, I think you've missed the point of my post. University sales are here to stay. They're not my cup of tea, and the buyer doesn't necessarily get a better deal than he would from me, you, or the local piano store. All I'm sayin' - now listen this time - is that Rockley is selling retail products under the guise of being a tax-exempt, non-profit organization, and my clients, your clients, the local piano store clients - are you still with me here? - believe that they're making a substantial charitable contribution to some worthy entity. And maybe they are, but as to the amount of that charitable contribution - stick with me, I'm almost done - (quoting from Rockley's disclaimer) "the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased".

Read that last sentence again and explain to me what you think it says. I'm fairly certain that I know what it says. If the fair market value at retail of the purchase  is $100 and you pay $110 for the product then you have just overpaid $10 on a $100 product for which you can claim $10 as a charitable contribution and the seller still gets his $100. Where's the deal? Am I missing something here?

No disrespect intended, Wim. I like anchovies but I smell a shark. Suggest you take another whiff.



-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 21:30
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



"With all due respect, I say BS to your notion that this is not our concern.  I don't like piano/university sales because I also sell pianos. But that's purely jealousy on my part"

Donn

You hit the nail on the head. As you state, you're the one that is jealous that the dealer is selling pianos at the university. But that doesn't make it "our" concern. This is "your" concern.

When I was selling pianos in St. Louis, l competing against three other large dealers. But when one of them would hold a university sale, I wasn't jealous. If anything, I was envious, wishing I could do the same thing. But since there wasn't anything I could do, I let it go. In fact, one time I was actually able to sell one of my pianos to a customer who called me for advice. I gave her the facts about the sale, and asked if she would like to look at some of my pianos. I also got quite a few calls from piano owners who bought pianos from these sales to tune them, because they didn't think the "university" would service the "used" piano they bought. So in the long run, I made money, too, from the university sale.

As far as the legality is concerned. Don't worry, you can bet your bottom dollar that the university and the dealer have convered their asses. You think you're the only one who doesn't like this university sale? How many other dealers are there in your area? If they are anything like the dealers in St. Louis, each one of them probably had their lawyers look at this with a fine toothed comb. When I closed my store, one of the dealers held a "going out of business" sale for me, using his products, in addition to mine. Another dealers sent a formal "protest" to me and the dealer, claiming we didn't do the sale according to state law.

Is it ethical? It does have a slight anchovies smell to it, but then some people like anchovies.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 20:41
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation


Wim,

With all due respect, I say BS to your notion that this is not our concern. I don't like piano/university sales because I also sell pianos. But that's purely jealousy on my part: I wish that I could sell some of MY pianos. No, what ticks me off is not that the university gets something for nothing (and that's ok - once again, I wish that I could get something for nothing), but rather that a piano DEALER is making a profit via a 501(c) deception (in my opinion) that is misleading the public - remember them: they are OUR clients - into believing that they are making a tax-deductible donation toward music in the venue sponsoring the sale. According to the footnote which I included in my original post, this "donation" isn't quite as large as it would seem to be. Is this just another way of doing business? Yes. Is it misleading? Yes. Is it unethical? Methinks yes. Is it illegal? We'll probably never know.

University sales are a part of our piano business culture. I accept that. I am only questioning why a piano dealer("Rockley Music Center") can sell pianos at a university sale and call themselves "Rockley Family Foundation." Doesn't that smell as fishy to you as it does to me?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 17:25
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Wim,

Why is discussion of this topic inappropriate?  We're small businesses who
collect and pay sales tax, and pay income tax.  Why not learn something about
another small business's tax strategy?  And many of us are occasionally asked
for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale. 
Censorship sucks, whether it's imposed by authority or by ourselves.  Let's talk
about it.

Mike

Mike

Since you moved the discussion to this list, I'll give you an answer. The issue dealing the the "ethical" manner of the university sale is different than the practical aspects of one. As most of us have discovered, there are some good things and bad things about a university sale. The good things are that the school gets the use of the instruments for a year. And in some cases, a dealer has made some concession by providing the school with some quality pianos at a much reduced price.

On the other side of the coin is the implied deception on the part of the dealership. Customers are led to believe that all the pianos for sale at the school were used by the school when, in fact, only a small percentage have. And thus, they think that the small profit from all sale of all the pianos are somehow benefiting the school, when, in fact, it is not. But that is not our concern.

What is our concern is the answer to the statement, "And many of us are occasionally asked for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale".  The advice you can give a customers is this. The pianos offered for sale at a university sale are no better, or worse, than the pianos offered for sale by the dealer in the store, and for the same price.

As said, it is not our concern whether the school and/or dealer is acting ethically or even legally. That's for the school, state and/or federal gov'mnt to figure out. All we need to be concerned with is the quality of the pianos.


-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 09:51
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Rockley Family Foundation - I just received notice of a "Piano Sale" at a local university through an arrangement with this organization which has IRS 501(c)(3) status. How convenient that the Rockley family also owns a piano dealership in Colorado. I understand how these "Piano Sales" work. I don't like them but I accept that they exist. Piano stores have a right to sell their products like anyone else. But what advantage does this Rockley Family Foundation have that other non-501(c)(3) piano dealers do not? I'm all for free enterprise but I believe in a level playing field that doesn't get an unfair helping hand from the government. What it seems like to me is that the Rockleys have found a way to sell pianos and eliminate a large share of the taxes they would pay on their profit.

This is a quote from the advertisement I received announcing the sale (in an asterisk/disclaimer in small print at the bottom of the page:

"If the portion of the purchase price is considered a charitable contribution to the Rockley Family Foundation, used to support the [-------] University music program, the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased. You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Any comments? Any experience with the Rockleys?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

Donn,
I suspect that what you, in all likelihood, meant as levity might seem, to some, as unfounded snark.  Wim listned, as did I, and others.  I'm glad you at least moved the question out of PTG-L, even if you didn't want to take my advice about the Business and Marketing discussion, but here's the thing.  While this novel sales approach does seem a bit sketchy and misleading, it's probably legal. Do you really think that anyone is going to buy a piano because it's tax deductable?  It certainly adds an interesting twist, and I would be curious how close to the legal line it comes, but it occurs to me, reading the quoted material in your original post:
 
"...You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

that, now, not only does the prospective buyer need to bring along a technician (they won't), they have to drag their accountant as well.  Quite the social event.

The question is, what value is the University getting, in the long term?

-------------------------------------------
David Skolnik
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 22:37
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation


Jealousy, envy, whatever......

Wim, I think you've missed the point of my post. University sales are here to stay. They're not my cup of tea, and the buyer doesn't necessarily get a better deal than he would from me, you, or the local piano store. All I'm sayin' - now listen this time - is that Rockley is selling retail products under the guise of being a tax-exempt, non-profit organization, and my clients, your clients, the local piano store clients - are you still with me here? - believe that they're making a substantial charitable contribution to some worthy entity. And maybe they are, but as to the amount of that charitable contribution - stick with me, I'm almost done - (quoting from Rockley's disclaimer) "the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased".

Read that last sentence again and explain to me what you think it says. I'm fairly certain that I know what it says. If the fair market value at retail of the purchase  is $100 and you pay $110 for the product then you have just overpaid $10 on a $100 product for which you can claim $10 as a charitable contribution and the seller still gets his $100. Where's the deal? Am I missing something here?

No disrespect intended, Wim. I like anchovies but I smell a shark. Suggest you take another whiff.



-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 21:30
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



"With all due respect, I say BS to your notion that this is not our concern.  I don't like piano/university sales because I also sell pianos. But that's purely jealousy on my part"

Donn

You hit the nail on the head. As you state, you're the one that is jealous that the dealer is selling pianos at the university. But that doesn't make it "our" concern. This is "your" concern.

When I was selling pianos in St. Louis, l competing against three other large dealers. But when one of them would hold a university sale, I wasn't jealous. If anything, I was envious, wishing I could do the same thing. But since there wasn't anything I could do, I let it go. In fact, one time I was actually able to sell one of my pianos to a customer who called me for advice. I gave her the facts about the sale, and asked if she would like to look at some of my pianos. I also got quite a few calls from piano owners who bought pianos from these sales to tune them, because they didn't think the "university" would service the "used" piano they bought. So in the long run, I made money, too, from the university sale.

As far as the legality is concerned. Don't worry, you can bet your bottom dollar that the university and the dealer have convered their asses. You think you're the only one who doesn't like this university sale? How many other dealers are there in your area? If they are anything like the dealers in St. Louis, each one of them probably had their lawyers look at this with a fine toothed comb. When I closed my store, one of the dealers held a "going out of business" sale for me, using his products, in addition to mine. Another dealers sent a formal "protest" to me and the dealer, claiming we didn't do the sale according to state law.

Is it ethical? It does have a slight anchovies smell to it, but then some people like anchovies.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 20:41
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation


Wim,

With all due respect, I say BS to your notion that this is not our concern. I don't like piano/university sales because I also sell pianos. But that's purely jealousy on my part: I wish that I could sell some of MY pianos. No, what ticks me off is not that the university gets something for nothing (and that's ok - once again, I wish that I could get something for nothing), but rather that a piano DEALER is making a profit via a 501(c) deception (in my opinion) that is misleading the public - remember them: they are OUR clients - into believing that they are making a tax-deductible donation toward music in the venue sponsoring the sale. According to the footnote which I included in my original post, this "donation" isn't quite as large as it would seem to be. Is this just another way of doing business? Yes. Is it misleading? Yes. Is it unethical? Methinks yes. Is it illegal? We'll probably never know.

University sales are a part of our piano business culture. I accept that. I am only questioning why a piano dealer("Rockley Music Center") can sell pianos at a university sale and call themselves "Rockley Family Foundation." Doesn't that smell as fishy to you as it does to me?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 17:25
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Wim,

Why is discussion of this topic inappropriate?  We're small businesses who
collect and pay sales tax, and pay income tax.  Why not learn something about
another small business's tax strategy?  And many of us are occasionally asked
for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale. 
Censorship sucks, whether it's imposed by authority or by ourselves.  Let's talk
about it.

Mike

Mike

Since you moved the discussion to this list, I'll give you an answer. The issue dealing the the "ethical" manner of the university sale is different than the practical aspects of one. As most of us have discovered, there are some good things and bad things about a university sale. The good things are that the school gets the use of the instruments for a year. And in some cases, a dealer has made some concession by providing the school with some quality pianos at a much reduced price.

On the other side of the coin is the implied deception on the part of the dealership. Customers are led to believe that all the pianos for sale at the school were used by the school when, in fact, only a small percentage have. And thus, they think that the small profit from all sale of all the pianos are somehow benefiting the school, when, in fact, it is not. But that is not our concern.

What is our concern is the answer to the statement, "And many of us are occasionally asked for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale".  The advice you can give a customers is this. The pianos offered for sale at a university sale are no better, or worse, than the pianos offered for sale by the dealer in the store, and for the same price.

As said, it is not our concern whether the school and/or dealer is acting ethically or even legally. That's for the school, state and/or federal gov'mnt to figure out. All we need to be concerned with is the quality of the pianos.


-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 09:51
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Rockley Family Foundation - I just received notice of a "Piano Sale" at a local university through an arrangement with this organization which has IRS 501(c)(3) status. How convenient that the Rockley family also owns a piano dealership in Colorado. I understand how these "Piano Sales" work. I don't like them but I accept that they exist. Piano stores have a right to sell their products like anyone else. But what advantage does this Rockley Family Foundation have that other non-501(c)(3) piano dealers do not? I'm all for free enterprise but I believe in a level playing field that doesn't get an unfair helping hand from the government. What it seems like to me is that the Rockleys have found a way to sell pianos and eliminate a large share of the taxes they would pay on their profit.

This is a quote from the advertisement I received announcing the sale (in an asterisk/disclaimer in small print at the bottom of the page:

"If the portion of the purchase price is considered a charitable contribution to the Rockley Family Foundation, used to support the [-------] University music program, the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased. You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Any comments? Any experience with the Rockleys?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

Read that last sentence again and explain to me what you think it says. I'm fairly certain that I know what it says. If the fair market value at retail of the purchase is $100 and you pay $110 for the product then you have just overpaid $10 on a $100 product for which you can claim $10 as a charitable contribution and the seller still gets his $100. Where's the deal? Am I missing something here?


What your missing is that it's none of your, much less our, business. This is between the dealer, the university, and the customer. This doesn't concern you, other than that it might have taken away a possible sale. If you think the dealer and/or the university is breaking the law, then hire a lawyer and have him/her sue the dealer and/or the university. But it certainly isn't our problem, and not worth discussing any further.  

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 22:37
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation


Jealousy, envy, whatever......

Wim, I think you've missed the point of my post. University sales are here to stay. They're not my cup of tea, and the buyer doesn't necessarily get a better deal than he would from me, you, or the local piano store. All I'm sayin' - now listen this time - is that Rockley is selling retail products under the guise of being a tax-exempt, non-profit organization, and my clients, your clients, the local piano store clients - are you still with me here? - believe that they're making a substantial charitable contribution to some worthy entity. And maybe they are, but as to the amount of that charitable contribution - stick with me, I'm almost done - (quoting from Rockley's disclaimer) "the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased".

Read that last sentence again and explain to me what you think it says. I'm fairly certain that I know what it says. If the fair market value at retail of the purchase  is $100 and you pay $110 for the product then you have just overpaid $10 on a $100 product for which you can claim $10 as a charitable contribution and the seller still gets his $100. Where's the deal? Am I missing something here?

No disrespect intended, Wim. I like anchovies but I smell a shark. Suggest you take another whiff.



-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 21:30
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



"With all due respect, I say BS to your notion that this is not our concern.  I don't like piano/university sales because I also sell pianos. But that's purely jealousy on my part"

Donn

You hit the nail on the head. As you state, you're the one that is jealous that the dealer is selling pianos at the university. But that doesn't make it "our" concern. This is "your" concern.

When I was selling pianos in St. Louis, l competing against three other large dealers. But when one of them would hold a university sale, I wasn't jealous. If anything, I was envious, wishing I could do the same thing. But since there wasn't anything I could do, I let it go. In fact, one time I was actually able to sell one of my pianos to a customer who called me for advice. I gave her the facts about the sale, and asked if she would like to look at some of my pianos. I also got quite a few calls from piano owners who bought pianos from these sales to tune them, because they didn't think the "university" would service the "used" piano they bought. So in the long run, I made money, too, from the university sale.

As far as the legality is concerned. Don't worry, you can bet your bottom dollar that the university and the dealer have convered their asses. You think you're the only one who doesn't like this university sale? How many other dealers are there in your area? If they are anything like the dealers in St. Louis, each one of them probably had their lawyers look at this with a fine toothed comb. When I closed my store, one of the dealers held a "going out of business" sale for me, using his products, in addition to mine. Another dealers sent a formal "protest" to me and the dealer, claiming we didn't do the sale according to state law.

Is it ethical? It does have a slight anchovies smell to it, but then some people like anchovies.

-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 20:41
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation


Wim,

With all due respect, I say BS to your notion that this is not our concern. I don't like piano/university sales because I also sell pianos. But that's purely jealousy on my part: I wish that I could sell some of MY pianos. No, what ticks me off is not that the university gets something for nothing (and that's ok - once again, I wish that I could get something for nothing), but rather that a piano DEALER is making a profit via a 501(c) deception (in my opinion) that is misleading the public - remember them: they are OUR clients - into believing that they are making a tax-deductible donation toward music in the venue sponsoring the sale. According to the footnote which I included in my original post, this "donation" isn't quite as large as it would seem to be. Is this just another way of doing business? Yes. Is it misleading? Yes. Is it unethical? Methinks yes. Is it illegal? We'll probably never know.

University sales are a part of our piano business culture. I accept that. I am only questioning why a piano dealer("Rockley Music Center") can sell pianos at a university sale and call themselves "Rockley Family Foundation." Doesn't that smell as fishy to you as it does to me?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 17:25
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Wim,

Why is discussion of this topic inappropriate?  We're small businesses who
collect and pay sales tax, and pay income tax.  Why not learn something about
another small business's tax strategy?  And many of us are occasionally asked
for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale. 
Censorship sucks, whether it's imposed by authority or by ourselves.  Let's talk
about it.

Mike

Mike

Since you moved the discussion to this list, I'll give you an answer. The issue dealing the the "ethical" manner of the university sale is different than the practical aspects of one. As most of us have discovered, there are some good things and bad things about a university sale. The good things are that the school gets the use of the instruments for a year. And in some cases, a dealer has made some concession by providing the school with some quality pianos at a much reduced price.

On the other side of the coin is the implied deception on the part of the dealership. Customers are led to believe that all the pianos for sale at the school were used by the school when, in fact, only a small percentage have. And thus, they think that the small profit from all sale of all the pianos are somehow benefiting the school, when, in fact, it is not. But that is not our concern.

What is our concern is the answer to the statement, "And many of us are occasionally asked for advice by a consumer considering purchasing a piano at a university sale".  The advice you can give a customers is this. The pianos offered for sale at a university sale are no better, or worse, than the pianos offered for sale by the dealer in the store, and for the same price.

As said, it is not our concern whether the school and/or dealer is acting ethically or even legally. That's for the school, state and/or federal gov'mnt to figure out. All we need to be concerned with is the quality of the pianos.


-------------------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 09:51
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Rockley Family Foundation - I just received notice of a "Piano Sale" at a local university through an arrangement with this organization which has IRS 501(c)(3) status. How convenient that the Rockley family also owns a piano dealership in Colorado. I understand how these "Piano Sales" work. I don't like them but I accept that they exist. Piano stores have a right to sell their products like anyone else. But what advantage does this Rockley Family Foundation have that other non-501(c)(3) piano dealers do not? I'm all for free enterprise but I believe in a level playing field that doesn't get an unfair helping hand from the government. What it seems like to me is that the Rockleys have found a way to sell pianos and eliminate a large share of the taxes they would pay on their profit.

This is a quote from the advertisement I received announcing the sale (in an asterisk/disclaimer in small print at the bottom of the page:

"If the portion of the purchase price is considered a charitable contribution to the Rockley Family Foundation, used to support the [-------] University music program, the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased. You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Any comments? Any experience with the Rockleys?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------

"...You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Statements like this are pro forma on receipts from benefit sales. You just bought a piano, car, used library book, barbecue sandwich, etc. You did not make a charitable contribution which can be deducted from your income tax.

For some reason the piano dealers set up intermediate corporations which legally conduct the sales. I don't why, and won't speculate.

-------------------------------------------
Ed Sutton
Editor
Piano Technicians Journal
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

-------------------------------------------

Pianos on a dealer's floor don't provide us with as much income potential as a piano in a customer's home.  However the dealer gets a piano off the sales floor is up to them, legal or not. 

Getting involved with the legal or ethical avenues of how this is done is not our forte.  I personally steer clear of these issues if asked.  My job is to make the piano sound and play it's best providing that's what the customer wants.

Piano sales have historically provided competing dealers an opportunity to sell products as well.  One dealer stirs up activity, the others scarf up the action.  For the competition, should a piano sell as a result of the other dealer's expense (advertising, staging, etc), that's a higher profit sale.

In the long term, technicians benefit.   

-------------------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2012 09:51
From: Donn Young
Subject: Rockley Family Foundation



Rockley Family Foundation - I just received notice of a "Piano Sale" at a local university through an arrangement with this organization which has IRS 501(c)(3) status. How convenient that the Rockley family also owns a piano dealership in Colorado. I understand how these "Piano Sales" work. I don't like them but I accept that they exist. Piano stores have a right to sell their products like anyone else. But what advantage does this Rockley Family Foundation have that other non-501(c)(3) piano dealers do not? I'm all for free enterprise but I believe in a level playing field that doesn't get an unfair helping hand from the government. What it seems like to me is that the Rockleys have found a way to sell pianos and eliminate a large share of the taxes they would pay on their profit.

This is a quote from the advertisement I received announcing the sale (in an asterisk/disclaimer in small print at the bottom of the page:

"If the portion of the purchase price is considered a charitable contribution to the Rockley Family Foundation, used to support the [-------] University music program, the deductible portion would be limited to the excess of the amount paid over the fair market value at retail of the goods purchased. You should consult with your tax advisor as to individual deductibilty."

Any comments? Any experience with the Rockleys?
-------------------------------------------
Donn Young, RPT
Accurate Piano Service
Devon, PA
610-964-8181
www.fixpianos.com
-------------------------------------------