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Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

  • 1.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-08-2013 19:11
    All,

    I have been watching with interest a discussion in another forum regarding pianos that have been neglected, and how does one address these situations. It's kind of a broad area, so let me narrow my particular interest on this subject, that being, bringing a neglected piano back to pitch. No repairs, string breakage or  adjustments are a factor in this post.

    I am getting the impression that some folks believe a single pass tuning in a single visit constitutes a tuning, which will obviously require subsequent visits to follow, and with that following visit, only a single pass be delivered, as on the initial visit. Somehow then, the day will magically arrive where all visits with single passes on each visit, will enable the piano be where it is desired to be.

    So with that qualification, does one tuning pass in an initial visit, with more visits needed to come with only one pass per visit qualify as a genuine tuning visit? Or is that left up to the person who does the visit to make the call, right or wrong? Heck, this may even be a moot point to ask such a thing 'cause everyone can do what they please, whether it's the best approach or not.

    As a point of information for bringing this up:
    The last two times I have had a plumber come out to do a clean-out at my home, I realized that they weren't doing what needed to be done. How did I know this; from watching previous visits by plumbers who did know what to do, but were no longer in the business. To circumvent this happening a third time, I investigated and researched consumer options to do the clean-out work myself. Lo and behold, I now plumb my own home with equipment that will serve me well beyond any additional expenses, and still not have a satisfactory result.

    Personally, and professionally, such a neglected piano, will require a minimum of two passes in a single visit just to get the ball rolling, with the caveat that I have explained this situation to the customer as I view it.

    Regards to all who may respond,

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-08-2013 21:51
    mea culpa,

    Ffrom:  "...  Lo and behold, I now plumb my own home with equipment that will serve me well beyond any additional expenses, and still not have a satisfactory result. ..."

    To:
     "...  Lo and behold, I now plumb my own home with equipment that will serve me well beyond any additional expenses, and have more than satisfactory results ..."

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv
    -------------------------------------------


  • 3.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-08-2013 23:16
    Hi Keith -
    My own approach to a pitch raising situation is three passes on the first visit (charged accordingly) and a mention to the customer that the piano should be tuned again in three or four months. At the second visit I would plan on two passes - which is my usual routine for most piano tunings. Occasionally, it happens that only one pass is needed at the second visit. The idea of making two or three visits to bring a piano up to pitch seems, to me anyway, to be inefficient for me and costly for the client.   

    -------------------------------------------
    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill MA
    978-372-2250
    -------------------------------------------








  • 4.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 01:44

    Hi Kieth and Gerry,

    Again, full disclosure, I work for CyberTuner.  If I come upon a piano that has been neglected and is 100¢ or less flat, then it will take me 2 complete passes, First in Pitch Raise Mode, Then in Smart Tune Mode (I might make a third pass to clean up unisons).  I will suggest the next tuning be in 3-4 months.  All of my subsequent tunings will require only one pass.  The piano should be in tune at pitch after the first visit.  Anything less than that is not professional service.  Your post assumed no broken strings.

    Pitch raising a piano to be in tune at pitch has now been scientifically analyzed.  The old days of coming back multiple times are no longer necessary.

    Carl Lieberman


    -------------------------------------------
    Carl Lieberman
    Venice CA
    310-392-2771
    -------------------------------------------








  • 5.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 07:07

    I have to agree with Dr. Lieberman's last sentence. Tools are now available to us to make this a less stressful service call than it has been in the past. However, I did encounter a -198¢ no-name console about 2 months ago. The client agreed to service the piano in 3 weeks after I pulled it up to A=440 to make sure it would be stable for her daughter(starting to learn). That 3 week wait was good since the daughter played the piano about 1 hr.per day(per the Mom) and I didn't want the daughter to lose interest with a sub-par instrument. There was a Mac and Pro Tools software in the same room as the piano, so the daughter was doing some multi-track recording with the piano. The piano on my return was -9¢. Since there was an interest in multi-track recording with the piano, I told the Mom I would get back to her in another week to see how the daughter was doing and if there were any complaints. I did, and the Mom said that she's playing the piano more since my last visit.

    I admit this is the exception rather than the rule, but tools are out there for us to perform pitch raises and do them well and have them hold up. I personally try to avoid the 2nd visit since it gives the impression of incompetence (in my opinion) no matter how good my "physics" explanation is..I try to avoid it. I've had pretty good luck with one visit, but there are exceptions. I try to keep them at a minimum.
    -------------------------------------------
    -phil
    phil@philbondi.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 6.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 07:11
    Hi Carl -
    You indicated that you may "make a third pass to clean up unisons". So, even with CyberTuner, two passes doesn't necessarily give you a fine quality tuning - a 3rd pass may be needed. If memory serves me well (and it doesn't always) I seem to remember Al Sanderson talking about 3 passes for pitch raise/fine tuning.  You recommend another tuning in 3-4 months. That would suggest that a certain amount of remaining instability is a side effect of the pitch raise. All I am getting at here is that, other than using an ETD,  your approach does not sound radically different from good quality aural tuning. 

    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill MA
    978-372-2250
    -------------------------------------------








  • 7.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-10-2013 12:45
    I beg to be convinced of the possibility that an analysis of a piano can be made (presumably electronically) for pitch-raise purposes. No two pianos react the same way to pitch raising - particularly bearing in mind the piano may not just be below pitch, but also horribly out of tune. Other aspects to be born in mind: age, type of frame, type of piano - from ancient Broadwood Square to modern Bosendorfer concert grand - and anything you care to think of in between. How are these calibrated on your Cyber Tuner? I have made an issue of the Pitch Raise in this Forum in the past - could be up to 20 years ago - or 10 years - whatever - but my method is good for all pianos and requires some intelligent appraisal of the piano to be pitch raised. It ideally requires some form of electronic aid able to read up to 445hz - for what goes up must necessarily come down - given the right circumstances. The system I use involves 'quadrants' - four notes at a major third apart and based on C/Ab/E/C as the first quadrant. Then B/G/Eb/B &c. The first quadrant is tuned above A=440 by intuition (maybe A=445+-) and the whole piano is tuned by just those notes in the first quadrant. The second, or B quadrant, is tuned 1 Hz below the first quadrant and again the whole piano is tuned thusly.  This is followed by the remaining two quadrants which means the whole piano is now pitch raised - but not perfectly in tune so your second 'pass' will be to tune it in the accepted manner. 
    I have had great success with this method and using it at Glyndebourne one morning was able to tune up an A=415 Yamaha grand to A=440 in just under one hour. That was essential and I finished just as the conductor, singers and repetiteur arrived for the first On Stage rehearsal.... Michael (UK)

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
    -------------------------------------------








  • 8.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 11:08
    Dear Keith,

        First visit on a neglected piano? Two passes; one quick and one fine. Straight up to A-440.

        My belief is that multiple small raises are more dangerous to the piano than one 'get-er-done' tension shift. When a really flat piano is raised incrementally you are asking the wire at the bearing points to shift several times. Raise it ONCE and put it where it should be. I have found both the Accutuner and Pitchlab do a very good job at determining overpull for the first pass. I rarely break strings. In fact; just tuned a 1939 Winter spinet (...wooden elbows) that may not have been tuned since the 1950's, according to the family. It was a full 300-cents flat. No strings broke. Piano felt good on the second pass. Scheduled for 30-days. Remarkable.

        Next visit? Depends on the amount of shift and the solidness of the second pass. If it sits well and tuned well; I am comfortable with suggesting 2 or 3 months. If it was still unstable, or the top-end fell dramatically while running the second pass; I may suggest as little as 30 days to the next tuning. If it was a full half-step on a piano untuned for 25 years; 30 days. If it was 30-cents; 2-months. If it was 10-cents; 6 months will probably serve. AND....all those are simply a rough guide. It always depends on how it FEELS as one tunes that second pass on the first visit. 

        Horribly out-of-tune pianos cannot be put in place with a single overpull pass through the piano. You can bring it to a level of playability, but not really 'fine-tuned' with just one pass at the tuning pins.  Anything really bad needs a tension-adjustment before a fine-tuning. I always try to describe the need as 'tension adjustment', not 'pitch-raise', to the client and explain that we are dealing with hundreds (...or thousands) of lbs. of change on the frame and strings of the instrument. And, if the piano has no structural problems and the pinblock is workable, I do insist on tuning to A-440. If it does not tune to A-440, it is only a piano-shaped-object. I avoid tuning pianos deliberately flat at all costs. They just don't sound right when tuned 50-cents flat! If the customer wants an instrument 'leveled out' or 'tune it where it is'...they can find another 'tooner'.  

        That only goes out-the-door when dealing with what I call a 'shrine to Grandma'; a hopeless instrument with a blown pinblock, cracked bridges, or some kind of puzzle-box soundboard (6 or 8 pieces with massive cracks) that simply MUST be made as playable as possible. In such as case...I feel it is my duty to make the best of what is in front of me. But....rare indeed is such a case. Oh...and some 1800's instruments get tuned to pitch references that may be on the plate (A-435 or 415) from the builder.

    .02----------Ching!
    Respectfully,
    -------------------------------------------
    Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
    North Bend OR
    tunerjeff@aol.com
    Portland Chapter #972
    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 07:32
    Ed Foote RPT http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html


  • 10.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 07:43
    Ed wrote:

    "It will need to be tuned again in a month, no matter 
    what I do on first visit."

    This is more or less true of any tuning, regardless of whether it involved a pitch correction.

    One visit is generally enough for most pitch corrections.

    -------------------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    -------------------------------------------








  • 11.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 08:35
    My tuning yesterday, pitch raise 180 cents on an Acrosonic from the early 50's.  First pass, 20 cent overpull, second pass 5 cent over pull, third pass at pitch then check all octaves and unisons. (One and a half hours)

    However, I do believe that, for me at least, a piano does not really get stable until the 5th tuning.

    -------------------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.prescottpiano.com
    larry@prescottpiano.com
    928-445-3888
    -------------------------------------------








  • 12.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-09-2013 07:37
    On 5/9/2013 12:41 AM, Carl Lieberman wrote: > > The old days of coming back multiple times > are no longer necessary. It never has been necessary. Any competent aural tuner will also leave a piano at pitch and in tune in one visit, typically with two passes and possibly another quick unison touch up. Ron N


  • 13.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-09-2013 13:47
    I agree 100% with Ron. Any good aural tuner with experience can bring a half-tone flat piano to pitch in two hours. With, as Ed Foote says, a followup in a month. No problem. Sorry, Carl, wetware is as good as silicon....<g>

    -------------------------------------------
    David Andersen
    Los Angeles CA
    310-391-4360
    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 15:24
    That also is how I've done it.  If really severely flat (more than 100cents), I give the twice(and 1/2) around leaving it about at A441, then come back in just one week.  Fairly stable after that.  Otherwise, just plan on a 2-3 hour visit with a 2-3 month follow up tuning. 

    Funny how many people don't want or forget to do the follow up!  I'm still waiting from the Dean of Business to schedule the follow up tuning one year later!  It's either holding, or she can't hear the difference ( my bet).  Why people buy Yamaha C-7's without maintaining them is beyond me.  Looks nice in her million dollar home though! So might be the antique Jag in her garage that gets nothing but an oil change every year? Folks like that don't deserve really nice things that need maintenance as far as I'm concerned. Pianos are not (and yet are) works of art, but same as the Jag, deserves the honor of being kept up!

    My take anyway...

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 15.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 15:41
    Paul wrote:

    "Funny how many people don't want or forget to do the follow up!"

    Of course. But that tells me no followup is essential; no followup need be built into the system.

    Piano tunings don't last. None of them last. I tell people what will happen after a large pitch correction, or any tuning, is unpredictable. Whether a followup tuning is needed is as dependent on the ear of the customer as it is anything else.

    A customer once asked when a new string would start staying in tune. I said I couldn't answer that question, because each time I touched up the string it would stay a little better. I had no way of knowing at what point the string's going out of tune would be small enough not to matter to him. He responded that he deeply respected that answer; he is a pain physician, and he said he must tell his patients much the same thing; their pain was likely to decrease over time but when it would decrease enough to ease their suffering was dependent upon their tolerance to pain among other things.



    -------------------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    -------------------------------------------








  • 16.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 16:43
    Sure they don't know!  They were used to the piano's sound for 10-20 years!  They're the customers I didn't really care to keep.  If you get a call from them every 5-10 years, and you have to start over again, It's very discouraging. Even after a couple years, they, to them, think it sounds great! Ahh!  I need to remind myself that I only care for the university pianos where it bugs me when something has gone 5-10 cents sharp or flat with seasonal changes!  Outside tunings are just the piano faculty and a few chancellors or deans.  All but this one dean takes care of their instrument.  Yes, I'm spoiled, but after 20 years in the real world before UNL, I don't whine....much! i'm pretty blessed with the pianos I have here.

    You also can't tell by the home if they take care of things!  Case in point!

    Some places I used to visit were not so pretty, home-wise, but they knew how to take care of the piano. My favorite customers for sure! Then were really nice homes that had me visit 2-3 times per year.  Ya never know, except that first visit. 

    For all you newby's, bear that in mind on first visits!  The piano will tell you tons on their interest in their precious piano from Grandma, new,  or whatever...no matter the income status!

    New pianos in a new home are also a red flag. They bought it in a tent sale by a piano store for a huge discount.  You'll see them for the free warranty tuning, and then maybe never again. (gee, the piano isn't staying in tune and we had it unloaded right out of the box!!)  Exceptions always happen, but rare.  DAMHIK having worked a lot for a couple major piano stores in Seattle when I was just starting out, after establishing solid tunings with blessings from Steve Brady.  I think about 10% ended up as decent customers. I would think if the store had given 2 free tunings within the first year, I would have retained 75% of those people.  Ha! Like that's going to happen!!

    All I can say is watch the surrounding elements and what sort of people are calling you over.  Observations can be golden! They are checking you out, and you should be checking them out as well :>)

    Good luck, all!



    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 17.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2013 10:07
    Maybe, but that's slow and the accuracy of the first pass will never be as good, not consistently. The return visit may well be driven by that. Yesterday I pitch raised and tuned a piano that was on average 100 cents flat (up to 125 cents in the treble). Used a Cybertuner (pitch raise mode). After a reasonably careful 30 minute first pass A0 straight up, the piano was left so close that the second pass was mostly fine adjustments. One hour and 15 minutes total and I don't expect to be going back in a month or even three months. That type of accuracy with that kind of speed cannot be met aurally, simply cannot on a consistent basis. Sometimes we have to accept the superiority of silicon for certain tasks. We may choose to do it however we want but let's not kid ourselves about the advantages of technology. There are many explanations as to why that is possible with a sophisticated pitch raise program that I won't get into here but any honest examination of the process and it's not hard to understand why technology has the advantage. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 18.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2013 11:52
    Yesterday I came across a Baldwin console that was, on average, 100 cents flat. I did three passes over the entire scale. Third pass was pretty much tweaking a few octaves and unisons. This was done aurally and took about an hour and twenty minutes. There will be no follow up tuning, although I recommended tuning again in about 6 months (which they probably won't do anyway). It really doesn't matter, in my opinion, whether you tune aurally or with an ETD. Every approach, including tuning hammer and muting technique, has advantages and disadvantages. If you find an approach that works for you and you stick with it long enough efficiency will improve along with your own intuitive sense of what to do. I really don't believe there is anything innately superior about one approach or the other.

    -------------------------------------------
    Gerry Johnston
    Haverhill MA
    978-372-2250
    -------------------------------------------








  • 19.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2013 21:26
    OK but I would argue that if you are tweaking octaves on the third pass, the second pass wasn't that close which means neither was the first. It certainly doesn't matter in the sense that people are free to choose how they want to work. However, what we're after is an honest and unbiased assessment of which methods produce the most accurate pitch raise results with the most accuracy and efficiency. I think that requires having sufficient experience with both methods and with the variety of machines available to really make a side by side comparison. So far the only "no difference" arguments seem to be coming from people who haven't or don't use the ETDs so I wonder on what basis the comparison is being made. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 20.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2013 09:36
    I agree with Ron's post, especially in this era of ETD's.  What I haven't heard in this thread are the peripheral issues.  I'm probably repeating here what everyone already knows, but I'll take that chance. Yanking up the pitch 50 or more cents is a stressful process.  There's nothing worse than the sound and feel of a breaking string.  A loose tuning pin is equally bad and a broken plate is disaster.  Sometimes just leveling a tuning at -50 cents can be nerve wracking because the treble is always the lowest area and most prone to string breakage.

    So a thorough discussion of pitch change and ramifications is always a starting pointwith the customer.  Leaving a piano flat is no crime IMHO depending upon the circumstances.  Once the customer and I know what we have to work with, we can opt for standard pitch on the next tuning in 6 months or so. 

    I usually don't overpull very much on a piano that I'm tuning for the first time.  The first time through I may only overpull 5 cents at A4 just to see what I've got to work with.  I don't like to go through 2 pitch raises to get a piano up to pitch, but I will do that rather than overpull 12 to 20 cents, which I admit isn't more than 3 to 5 cents sharp.  I just like to opt for a gentler pitch raise procedure.  I do get the job done in one visit.

    And by the way, I have no trouble charging extra.  I figure the customer is getting a good deal.  He's let the piano go for years so an extra 1/2 or full tuning charge is letting the customer off easy.

    -------------------------------------------
    Richard West
    Lincoln NE
    402-477-7198
    440richard@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 21.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-09-2013 09:19
    Generally speaking, I would agree that a pitch raise and tuning can be done in one visit. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Scott Kerns
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Lincoln, NE
    www.thattuningguy.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 22.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 10:11

    Keith,
    I haven't read all of the posts in this string; however, my position on the subject is, when I get a call on a new customer with neglected piano, they are to expect a visit of up to 3 hours (cost accordingly), first, confirming that the instrument is in viable condition, to clean it out, minimal minor regulation, pitch raise, (one or two passes), and finally leave it at concert pitch, with the knowledge, that since it needed a major pitch correction, it will need servicing again in a couple of months to stabilize the pitch.

    Sometimes I find the piano to have had excellent care before its neglected period and bacially be at pitch (withing a few cents) and just needs some cleaning.

    My two cents.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ken Gerler, RPT

    Gerler Piano & Organ Service
    Florissant (St. Louis), MO 63033
    kenneth.gerler@prodigy.net
    314-355-2339
    -------------------------------------------








  • 23.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2013 12:48
    I find that the piano will hold much better after a single-session, two-pass pitch raise if I've lubricated the string bearings. Actually, that holds true for fine tuning as well. I can imagine that for those who live in an arrid climate this may not be a problem.

    -------------------------------------------
    Mario Igrec
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    -------------------------------------------





  • 24.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 10:14
    First, I measure the pitch of all the A's before I start each tuning (with an ETD). This is a big help for both me and the customer in determining the optimum tuning interval and assessing the overall health of the piano, along with the effect of its environment on pitch. This is especially helpful when a customer has just acquired a piano, through purchase or inheritance.

    Over the last decade, in the midwest, northeast, and now southwest, I've had to do a pitch raise pass on probably 95% of the tunings I do. For me, the pain threshold is about five cents. Occasionally, I only pitch-raise the top few sections; my initial measurements tell me. 

    Pitch-raising is where ETD's shine, and I use them even when tuning aurally on the final pass. With TuneLab, the first quick pass needs no mutes (because the oscilloscope-like "spectrum display" shows the pitch of all strings at once), and takes me less than 20 minutes. I then go right back and do a fine tuning pass. I've done an 80-cent pitch raise, and had TuneLab place every string within three to five cents of target.

    I see no benefit to the customer or the piano to do a pitch raise pass, and then come back in several weeks for a fine-tuning pass, as I've heard is sometimes practiced. (Perhaps it was done because an aural pitch raise could take an hour? I don't know.). The piano should sound as good as I can get it before I leave.

    If I found the piano 30 cents or more flat, I recommend that the next tuning be less than a year, maybe six to nine months, in order to get caught up. But I don't like to say that "the piano needs tuning". A piano doesn't need tuning any more than a pencil needs sharpening: we're the ones who care, when we go to use them.

    But I do tell people it's a waste of money to let pianos get 50 cents flat, and tune only every five years. With that strategy, the piano will only be in tune for a few months out of ten years. Measuring pitch and showing it to the customer keeps the discussions factual, and often exposes harsh environments (humidity as high as 70% RH due to evaporative coolers out here) and defects in the piano (pinblock separation in uprights).

    --Cy--

    -------------------------------------------
    Cy Shuster, RPT
    Albuquerque, NM
    http://www.shusterpiano.com
    http://www.facebook.com/shusterpiano

    -------------------------------------------








  • 25.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-09-2013 11:02
    The advantage of ETD pitch raising is that you can get the first pass extremely close. The closer you are when you start the second pass the greater the stability otherwise you are in effect just doing another pitch correction. Aural pitch corrections are *never* as accurate as ETD pitch corrections on the first pass. In particular and in this respect the Cybertuner pitch correction function and smart tune function are simply better than any others, including any aural techniques. I say that from experience with all machines and having tuned aurally for many years. A unison check after any fine tuning pass is always a good idea because the smaller the range of focus the more discriminating your ear is. Basic psychophysical phenomenon. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 26.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-09-2013 15:47
    On 5/9/2013 7:33 AM, Larry Messerly wrote: > > My tuning yesterday, pitch raise 180 cents on an Acrosonic from the > early 50's. First pass, 20 cent overpull, second pass 5 cent over > pull, third pass at pitch then check all octaves and unisons. (One > and a half hours) That's about right for me too, aurally. > However, I do believe that, for me at least, a piano does not really > get stable until the 5th tuning. It's not the number of tunings, but how long it takes the strings to render through the bridge to more or less equalize segment tensions. That takes time, and can't be gotten around. Ron N


  • 27.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-10-2013 14:56
    Thank you all for the replies and responses thus far on this subject.

    I feel it has been a worthwhile discussion, regardless of those who who might have ambivalent feelings on such matters.

    It, at least, opens the door to consider what has previously been considered as a way of doing things from a time memorial to a more current way of potentially doing things in this day and age.

    Sincerest regards,

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv
    -------------------------------------------


  • 28.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2013 21:16
    I think then you should try using the Cybertuner for this purpose and see what you think then. It is remarkably consistent in the pitch raise capacity for leaving the piano very close if not spot on pitch. In the smart tune mode for raises of modest amount, 10, 15, 20 cents, it produces an acceptable one pass tuning. While I can't speak to the specific programming, I believe it utilizes a trailing average in calculating the overpull as you proceed from A0 to the top of the piano. It factors in bass/tenor/treble breaks as well as the differences between plain wire and wrapped strings. I can't speak to how well it does on all premodern pianos, though I do use it on some premodern Bosendorfer pianos without wooden frames where it performs quite well, but on the modern instruments that I routinely use it on it is very consistent. Even large pitch corrections of 100 cents leave the piano very close for the final and fine tuning pass. Overpull percentages can be adjusted, btw, should you feel compelled. The benefit of using this electronic device over aural methods is obvious to anyone who has tried it. It measures each note prior to any change in pitch, calculates a trailing average and then the required overpull giving you a specific target. That is simply not possible on any practical level or with any real consistency or speed done aurally. While all the devices have their particular strengths and all perform quite well depending on how you prefer to use them, I have found this particular aspect of the Cybertuner (the pitch raise function) to be quite a bit superior to other devices and I have tried them all at one time or another. I have decades of experience tuning aurally as well. I do not work for or represent Cybertuner, btw. I'm just relating my own personal experience. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 29.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-11-2013 18:36
    FWIW, I have had RCT pitch raises/1-pass SmartTune tunings that did not produce acceptable 1-pass results. At least for me--I couldn't leave the piano there. (Although usually results are quite good.) While the RCT is a great device, I don't think it's so very helpful for pitch raises of 50+ cents. Again, for me.

    I get frustrated waiting for the thing to read the pitch and calculate the overpull. It's definitely less time than the Verituner I used in 2004-2005, but the boredom effect quickly sets in. Then, if it doesn't automatically advance to the next note (happens when flat enough), you have to do it manually. Hand off work and pressing the screen. Slow. Not cool. Especially if you have to do it with each note.

    Anyway, I can do 2 quick aural passes (if necessary) in the time it takes to do one of the "careful" ones with RCT. Either way it's close enough to produce a good result with the final tuning pass. For me, 2 pitch raise passes and a tuning is usually about 1:20 - 1:30 aurally. Generally, the only time I do 3 passes is when it's 60+ cents flat. And I kinda like doing aural pitch raises. It's a challenge, but also a great opportunity to train your ear and body to work faster and super-efficiently.

    And maybe I'm doing it all wrong with RCT. :-)

    I agree with those who have said that regardless of what we do, a major pitch raise means things will go out of tune more quickly. And I think we OCD types stress over these things way too much. Get in, git 'er dun, and move on. Life's too short to worry about things that we can't control and are truly not our fault. Shift happens...thankfully...or we wouldn't have work.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 30.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2013 21:56
    If you are expecting Smart Tune to produce good one pass tunings at 50 cents flat you are expecting too much. It's not designed for that. The pitch raise mode can be adjusted for the amount the piano is out of tune to allow it to auto switch more efficiently. If the piano is a full half tone flat and not switching as you would like just hit the note a half tone above with a quick staccato blow to get the auto switch to engage and then play the note to be tuned so it is read properly. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 31.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-12-2013 14:03
    David brings up a very important point.

    Hello, has anyone here ever been to a dentist after knowing months of neglect. You're lucky to get just a cleaning and X-rays before any work is ever performed on you by a actual dentist.

    There's no way anyone is going to resurrect a piano that has been neglected in one visit, aurally or electronically. All that can be accomplished in one visit is a vast improvement over its current state of being.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 32.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-12-2013 16:26
    Switch to r c t . 98c accrue. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Keith McGavern wrote: > >David brings up a very important point. > > Hello, has anyone here ever been to a dentist after knowing months of neglect. You're lucky to get just a cleaning and X-rays before any work is ever performed on you by a actual dentist. > > There's no way anyone is going to resurrect a piano that has been neglected in one visit, aurally or electronically. All that can be accomplished in one visit is a vast improvement over its current state of being. > > Keith McGavern, RPT > Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA > tune-repair@allegiance.tv > ------------------------------------------- > > Original Message: > Sent: 05-11-2013 21:54 > From: David Love > ... If you are expecting Smart Tune to produce good one pass tunings at 50 cents flat you are expecting too much. ... > > >


  • 33.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-13-2013 06:19
    Hello Donald,

    If I understand your brief message, I have used RCT for a very long time, and I do understand its abilities. In conjunction I also use OnlyPure for special occasions. Thank you for your suggestion though.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 34.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-12-2013 22:42
    Thanks for the tip on auto switching. 

    No, I understand SmartTune is limited to around 20 cents.

    One thing I was getting at is the time it takes to read and calculate, then tune. When I'm pitch raising, seems like I can tune two strings in the time it takes to read/tune one with RCT. Sure, the accuracy might be slightly better with RCT. However, I'm not so sure that it matters that much on large pitch raises since it's going to quickly go out of tune regardless.

    But I'm definitely not the expert on RCT. I've only had it for a few months--purchased to help my tunings after rotator cuff surgery when I had to tune all left-handed . Mostly like RCT, but I also like to tune aurally and will likely default to that again.

    -------------------------------------------
    John Formsma, RPT
    Blue Mountain MS


    -------------------------------------------








  • 35.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-10-2013 22:06



  • 36.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2013 00:01
    This parallels my experience and I also did aural pitch raising for a long time as well. I started with the SATIII and that was quite an improvement for this purpose (still have one in fact). I do find that the Cybertuner has a slightly better PR function in terms of both simplicity and accuracy (periodic measurements and resets are not required). David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 37.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-11-2013 10:48


    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Black RPT
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
    -------------------------------------------
    Gentlemen, 
         I have read with great interest the discussion of whether and aural tuner or one using an ETD can pitch raise more accurately. As an avid aural tuner for more years than I like to remember I honestly believed I could aural tune more accurately and musically than an ETD.
    Well, after my purchase of a Sanderson Acura Tuner and several years of tuning bliss using this machine. There ain't no way one can aurally pitch raise more closely than with an ETD. This amazing machine allows me to create beautiful tunings quicker and more accurately with ease and less stress. However, I am so thankful I first learned to tune aurally and then fell in love with my ETD. I check it and it checks me. I now have at my finger tips a basis to evaluate the final tuning not only aurally but also electronically. 







  • 38.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-15-2013 22:30
    Concerning the Blitzkrieg, Folks, let's be honest, and cease this attack of a straw man. For many, a first pass in an aural pitch raise is never intended to be accurate. Why the comparison with one that is intended to be? Sincerely, ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 39.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-15-2013 23:50
    I'm not sure what straw man argument you are talking about. The point of the discussion started, as I recall, with whether or not a piano that has had a pitch correction is capable of tuning stability and whether or not a return visit within a short period of time would be necessary. The discussion turned to whether or not the accuracy of the pitch correction pass itself might be a factor in achieving stability. I think it is. So then the question became what method most likely delivers an accurate pitch correction in the most efficient manor prior to fine tuning. And here we are. I still think the machine wins hands down for this particular purpose. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 40.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 06:16
    Thank you for responding, It's apples and oranges. There are advantages to both. Reyburn explains his pitch raise program is intended for tuning from A0 to C88. Most aural first past pitch raise systems are intended for a string or a pin at a time, i.e., one string in a unison, or one pin in a horizontal row at a time. Not the same thing. Some strip mute classes lead one to believe at one time, even now, some redistribute tension more evenly than one pin, i.e., every other note at a time. This is intended to augment accuracy, with aural pitch raising, something ETD users do not experiment with and improve on a daily basis. A0 to C88, or a note at a time, is better for the string; tuning one string a unison at a time and so forth, for the board and plate, or the structure. Both have weaknesses. Some prefer to take less risk of the plate getting damaged and to stress the board and bridge less. This type of concern or lack of it can and has lead to lawsuits. It is generally considered more time consuming to use aural methods, but that has been nothing but arbitrarily stated by personally concluding and asserting this, not proven objectively. If so, then, is it proven that nothing is gained by taking more time in areas like stability and safety, either way? Particularly with aged and hardened strings, wood, and even plate, as materials get brittle, pitch raising by string, opposed to note, does increase the likelihood that bearing points will shift, and the string will have to rebend in a fashion almost as dramatic as splicing a string by moving the knot to the non-speaking part of the capo. The more rapidly you return the adjacent pin to pitch, the less likely that bearing point bends will shift. But it still will shift; the more you raise pitch at once, the more it will shift, and the more string you gain on the pin you start with; assuming of course, strings are double wound, not looped. It will present less reason to return at a later date, perhaps, to raise by note, but you still gain string on the pin you start with; the more aggressive the pitch raise, the more you gain on one side. So it is not so indefensible to argue this be done gradually, in order to prevent bearing points from shifting. That is in large part when strings break. There is also of course aural whole tone pitch raising to consider, which is left to someone who does. But to pull out of hat arguments against pitch raising gradually, i.e., from bi-yearly app. to app. to app., or returning in a week, even when moving from A0 to C88, is to pretend some of these risks and challenges do not exist. For the typical once a decade tuning, what will the piano sound like in a week once you are done with your dozen or so tuning a day electronic one pass A0 to C88 half step half hour pitch raise? For that matter, the same day? How will you know except by going back? Obviously, those on the once a decade plan prefers horrible most of the time. Probably never realize what it sounds like tuned. The only way you know what it sounds like in a week is by returning. There is also the question of whether or not the piano needs pitch raising at all. Respectfully, ------------------------------------------- Benjamin Sloane Cincinnati OH 513-257-8480 -------------------------------------------


  • 41.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 09:20
    The only comparison being made is which one gets the job done more efficiently and more accurately and more predictably. The fact that the ETD can measure the pitch and on the fly calculate the overpull and give you that target instantly argues in its favor and having done it both ways it would take some extraordinary convincing that any aural methods even come close. I think structural concerns are way overblown (do plates get more *brittle* with age? How does the changing character of the wood--if that's even true--affect tuning stability? People do get concerned about string breakage but in my experience if the string is going to break because of some inherent structural weakness it is going to break regardless of how you do it and when strings do break it doesn't seem necessarily related to pitch corrections anyway. Overpulls in some areas where strings are already maxed out at the break point can be a problem but then those strings often break when no pitch correction is involved. Bearing points will shift no matter how you do it. Does that cause tuning instability? Considering the restored bearing point (by putting it back at pitch) was already a bearing point once it doesn't seem that's a likely problem. The evidence I've had about pitch corrections and stability in the short term comes from coming back to pianos that have had pitch corrections. This often happens when, say, I encounter a piano that has not been serviced in a long time, even many decades as I encountered last month--and yesterday for that matter, pitch corrected from 70 - 125 cents, and then revisited two weeks later to do other work to the piano: regulation, voicing (as I will with the piano I visited yesterday). Tuning was still solid. Of course you can come back three months later and the piano can be out of tune. That can happen as well on pianos that don't have pitch corrections, btw. So how do you know what was responsible? Was it the pitch correction or was it the fact that you went from a Kansas 100% humidity summer to a 40% humidity fall during those three months. Again, I'm not arguing personal preference. I don't really give a hoot how people want to do it. I'm simply saying that those who argue that aural methods for pitch raising are *both* as accurate and as efficient, or fast, time after time are not looking at the facts or have no experience with the ETDs. Further, I'm saying that the stability of the piano after a pitch raise has a lot to do with how accurate the pitch correction is prior to doing the final fine tuning (tuning technique may be another part of that). If someone wants to do a real controlled experiment that's fine with me. But having done it both ways and having returned to pitch corrected pianos many times within days or weeks (beyond that other factors start to come into play), I don't need any convincing--but I'm open to it if someone can convince me otherwise. I don't have anything emotionally invested in this. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 42.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 10:34

    Can dry bones live? Some of us are closer to the miracle working business than others.

    It just seems as pianos move toward a state of thermodynamic equilibrium that like bones, so many of the materials, be it wool, buckskin, synthetic material, felts, fabrics, strings, etc, as these approach entropy, are in the process of doing what bones do, get harder and harder, more brittle and more brittle, until finally, ashes to ashes, disintegrating into a this world nothingness, call it nirvana, call it the second law of thermodynamics, call it whatever. Maybe I ought not include the plate in this process; there are things that as they dissipate into nothingness that in fact, get softer initially; I cannot imagine a plate doing that. Full acknowledgement of ignorance as to any R&D about that. Caution is required for the newest of pianos with any pitch adjustment.

    For modest, though some might say, irrational, pitch raises, the observation needs to be made, that an aural tuner tunes quick slow, the ETD tuner, slow quick, or just slow, by in large. It could be argued, the more time the piano has to settle at approximate pitch, the more stable the final tuning will be, for a whole host of reasons, not the least of which, figuring out what is happening with your ears, well as your eyes.



    -------------------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    -------------------------------------------








  • 43.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 11:25
    Very poetic but I'm not sure what the meaning is. Have you ever done this with an ETD (as I mentioned, I think the RCT is the best at getting the pitch correction the closest on the first pass but others do a good job as well with careful use) to see how accurate the initial pass can be, done a fine tuning and then gone back in a week to see how well it's held? David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 44.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 17:08

    I own RCT. Bought it with the money I made tuning pianos aurally. Presently out of service with a dead PDA and a decision to go with android. Wore out the PDA with the calendar for the most part. Want to donate one I am in the directory.

    My conclusion? This business is filled with people that tell you and others you can't do things you can do, and proved you can do, sometimes, even as a teenager. I would compare using it instead of tuning aurally with a decision to go to a community college rather than Harvard. You want to run from the greater challenge, fine. I'm not having any of it.



    -------------------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    -------------------------------------------








  • 45.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 10:16
    I think many aural tuners don't realize the benefit of an ETD pitch raise, never having experienced one.

    Have you ever done a rough aural pitch raise, then fine-tuned (again, aurally), and found that things were still moving around? I have, especially in the top plate section and the low tenor. So essentially I've wound up tuning those sections two or three times.

    ETDs let you do just one pass, while an aural pitch raise might be not just inaccurate, but insufficient. 

    --Cy--

    -------------------------------------------
    Cy Shuster, RPT
    Albuquerque, NM
    http://www.shusterpiano.com
    http://www.facebook.com/shusterpiano

    -------------------------------------------








  • 46.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 10:38
    Cy Shuster,

    That's why people recommend multiple visits. How do you know that is not happening with the ETD?

    -------------------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    -------------------------------------------








  • 47.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-18-2013 01:19
    I know it's not happening with the ETD because on the second fine-tuning pass with the ETD, I'm measuring the exact pitch of every wire (something that's not easy to do aurally).

    As I believe I've said several times, I've done an 80-cent pitch raise, and found every note within 3 to 5 cents on the second pass. The older version of TuneLab accomplishes the variation among individual pianos by keeping a moving average of the previous seven notes. With the current version, you quickly measure a range of notes across the keyboard (I use the C major arpeggio), and then it uses a formula to compute the correct overpull for each note. You can then tune in any sequence.

    You've gotta try it to believe it. I've been using TuneLab for 11 years, on thousands of pianos of all sizes.

    --Cy--

    -------------------------------------------
    Cy Shuster, RPT
    Albuquerque, NM
    http://www.shusterpiano.com
    http://www.facebook.com/shusterpiano

    -------------------------------------------








  • 48.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-18-2013 08:44

    Thanks for replying Cy Shuster! Your answer is appreciated.

    Your original question:

    "Have you ever done a rough aural pitch raise, then fine-tuned (again, aurally), and found that things were still moving around? I have, especially in the top plate section and the low tenor. So essentially I've wound up tuning those sections two or three times."

    Every piano is different. There are generalizations that could be made, and there are better teachers than experience, but knowing every particular piano is not enough, because age is a factor as well. Pitch, also will be a factor. It is useful to use Tune Lab to check the different regions of the piano initially. Sometimes the bass strings will drop more than others depending on age and other factors, sometimes a pitch raise will be great enough to ascend from the temperament first, sometimes, small enough to skip bass strings. Sometimes, a descent from the temperament is determined appropriate by the small amount flat, and nothing but midrange first pass is necessary. Sometimes, esp. with an upright, the treble side will not need a second pass. With a smaller and bigger pitch raises, more often with bigger, sometimes, the lower plain wire strings below the temperament, in this case, A3 to A4, will end up sharp if brought to pitch even when ascending from mid-range first, so one needs to be generous with octaves down to the bass strings, which by that time, you may discover will be a waste of time to adjust, maybe not; sometimes, with pitch lowering, it is useless to do a first pass with the entire capo section of a grand or at least the top half. The goal is to turn the pin close enough with one test blow so on the second pass, the pin will not need to be turned again, just sprung. It is not a matter of cents, but hammer technique. If that is not possible, serious consideration should be made of absconding the first pass in that region of the piano, at least. Sometimes, for the sake of tension, intuition tells one not to match the one string in the unison initially tuned, but to leave the third string sharp of that, however; all sorts of adjustments are being made in an aural first pass on the fly as you go. It takes being flexible, changing judgments sometimes well thought out while strip muting, never being too sure of yourself to make adjustments to what you thought you were doing in the first place, all to as close to a half dozen minutes as possible. The aural pitch raise begins with one set way, but if you don't give up over the years, it turns into a whole menagerie of possibilities the piano most of all demands of you.

    ETD simplifies this. There is precedent to fold. You don't have to. When you do, you lose sight of what you lose by doing so.



    -------------------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    -------------------------------------------








  • 49.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 12:00
    "I think many aural tuners don't realize the benefit of an ETD pitch raise, never having experienced one."

    And perhaps tuners accustomed to ETDs don't realize the skill level of aural tuners with decades of experience; we get very good using the techniques which we have happened to practice, in the case of piano techs, for as long as decades. Nothing like 35 years of practicing aural pitch corrections to get good at them. Don't underestimate the power of practice over time.

    There are other things of which techs may be unaware:

    When ETD's got good, they included pitch correction functions early on. Therefore, many ETD users have only experienced using ETD's with pitch correction features. They have little experience using an ETD for a pitch correction without a specific pitch correction feature.

    Out of necessity I spent some time doing pitch corrections with an ETD that had no pitch correction feature. The results surprised me. I soon didn't miss the calculated overpull of the pitch raise feature. I found techniques that let me do without calculated over pull.

    I came out of the experience convinced that reliance on calculated overpull features can make techs belabor pitch corrections, that is, spend too much time on them, and become disappointed when the results are not as accurate as one expected. The answer for me is to practice doing pitch corrections quickly enough so that the random errors introduced by speed tuning are approximately equal to the errors introduced by the pitch correction "post drop."

    With less invested in a pitch correction pass, one cares less about additional tuning passes. One keeps on doing tuning passes until things stabilize. Until the tuning stabilizes, you aren't done with the tuning. With practice those extra passes can all be done in the time of a regular appointment, more or less.

    If one makes it a habit to continue until the tuning stabilizes, one will be less likely to argue in favor of multiple visits for pitch corrections.

    IMO, of course.

    -------------------------------------------
    Kent Swafford
    Lenexa KS
    913-631-8227
    -------------------------------------------








  • 50.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 13:25
    So how many passes do you have to do to get things to stabilize? Your argument proves my point. One pass that leaves the piano extremely close to the final pitch target removes the need for "multiple passes until the pitch stabilizes". The stability of the pitch at the final tuning has everything to do with how close your starting point is, not the piano continuing to stress and move, at least not in my experience. Having nearly 40 years of experience and a good 20 of those doing things aurally, including pitch corrections, I don't think there's any comparison. And what about the person who doesn't have 35 years of experience practicing pitch raises. Should we advise them to practice for 20 years and then hopefully they'll get good at it or should we suggest that there's a piece of technology that will accomplish an accurate pitch correction right away and save them countless hours of labor. While there's no question that people can invest too much in the first pass and have unreasonable expectations about it being a "final" tuning, that’s hardly the fault of the technology. Given adequate hammer skills and a proper understanding of how to use the technology, a pitch correction, even a reasonably careful one, can be done in a relatively short amount of time that leaves the piano without the need for additional and multiple passes to achieve stability. Are you justifying multiple and otherwise unnecessary passes by finding a reason not to care as much about the first one or the others that follow? That seems like a psychological game to make us feel better about doing it in a way that's less efficient. I agree that multiple visits for pitch corrections are unnecessary. Where we seem to disagree is what are reasonable expectations for pitch corrections using technology versus not. Your explanation seems to prove my point. Aural pitch corrections (with years of practice) still require multiple passes to get the pitch close enough to the target to begin a fine tuning process (you call that pitch stabilization--I would disagree with that characterization). Technology allows you to get to that point with fewer passes (namely one) if used properly. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 51.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-11-2013 11:01
    On 5/11/2013 8:34 AM, Richard West wrote: > So a thorough discussion of pitch change and ramifications is always > a starting pointwith the customer. Leaving a piano flat is no crime > IMHO depending upon the circumstances. Once the customer and I know > what we have to work with, we can opt for standard pitch on the next > tuning in 6 months or so. Again, I don't understand. You'll know as much after the initial pitch raise as you will in six months. What's the problem with just finishing the pitch raise and letting the piano start stabilizing at pitch now instead of starting the process all over again in six months? If it takes another pitch raise pass, and another half a tuning fee, it ends up costing them the same total after the six month tuning, and the six month tuning will leave them a stable piano. I very rarely get the wooly stringed rust buckets, because I don't go out on the hundred year old upright crappie shelters the neighbor gave them. It's hard enough to avoid futility when I'm actively trying, to voluntarily throw myself on entropy's sword arbitrarily. The vast majority of my pitch raises are on pianos with strings made of something more or less recognizable as music wire. The piano may be of decent quality, or the nastiest spinet ever built. Doesn't matter. I'm not a snob, though I do try to be a survivor. With these pianos, I can do up to about a 150 cent pitch raise in one pass, a second tuning pass, and a five minute or so octave and unison validation. Takes maybe 75-90 minutes depending on my condition and how the piano responds. The only time I do a pitch raise with the next visit is when they wait two or more years for the next tuning and it drops enough for the pitch raise to be necessary. Many times, as the check is being made out, I've been asked why the last tuner didn't tune the piano at pitch instead of leaving it low. As always, I tell them the truth. I don't know. I also tell them that if they sing with the piano, they should plan on more warm up time so they don't hurt themselves. Everyone lives in a different world. Ron N


  • 52.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-11-2013 13:37
    Ron N,

    I have read your response with earnest, and I accept your experience as being the protocol in your neck of the woods for you, but there are other realities that some of us do experience that have nothing to do with what you suggest should be done each and every time.

    Just yesterday I went to service a 1910 Story & Clark Upright. Given the years it has been on planet Earth (Urantia to some, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book ), it was in remarkable shape.

    Customer wanted minimal work done to appease a 7 yr old child who is on her 2nd month. As it turned out, I was in an extreme minimal frame of mind. Friday appointment @ 4pm, fell asleep prior, wife wakes me up saying, "Didn't you need to be somewhere by 4pm, I say OMG, go out there, mind still in a fog. alert the customer exactly how I feel and what actually to place for me to even be there.

    I do a touch up tuning, piano is roughly at about -10 cents, rust completely evident on the plain music wires, no repairs needed, middle pedal has been moved to do the work of the original sustain pedal, now gone, the 7 yr old, Sydnie shows me two notes that absolutely are awful, discover it's because the muffler rail device is completely worn out and inoperable and causing those two notes to sound awful, remove the rail completely, give to customer, let them know we can take care of that later if they want.

    Those notes now work to the satisfaction of Sydnie, I commence to touch up notes that are obviously out of the ball park, charge actually less than what I originally quoted because I know I am at a substandard feeling of interest and ability, and the customer says, "Thank you!", full well knowing that I have told them how it is with me that day and that time. I let them know that this upright is in great condition considering its age.

    All things taken into consideration, this piano sounded pretty darn good. I left knowing I did all I could do at the moment and knowing it will serve this customer's purpose for now. It was a win-win for all concerned.

    As to your closing comment, "Everyone lives in a different world." I concur, that is unequivocally the Truth.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 53.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-11-2013 22:00
    Interesting exchange. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com


  • 54.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-12-2013 12:50
    If you liked that exchange, David, try this one that I have held back on 'til now.

    In response to an earlier post by our esteemed Jeffrey Hickey, in this same thread, who always have something to offer of value.

    "Jeff, I like the concept of your using "tension adjustment" as a reference.

    One minor exception to your otherwise most excellent post, and that is, tuning a piano below A440. I have had customers who specifically do not want their piano changed from its current below pitch location, so I essentially don't have a problem with honoring their request. But yes, I agree, a lower pitch down, something just somehow doesn't sound/seem right, The saving grace in doing that type of tuning is that one doesn't have to live with hearing that lower pitch repetitively once done and gone from the scene.

    I have a somewhat illustrative example, hopefully:
    The front porch where I live is concrete, and it's got numerous cracks and defects, fairly OMG unsightly and uneven. I have had numerous recommendations to do something about its condition, all of which I have declined to act on. I do have numerous reasons for liking it the way it is. While it may not be understandable to some for me to refuse to upgrade its condition, even short of complete replacement, it has purpose for remaining to be what it is.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv

    -------------------------------------------

    Original Message:
    Sent: 05-09-2013 11:07
    From: Jeffrey Hickey

    ...  I always try to describe the need as 'tension adjustment', not 'pitch-raise', to the client ...

    ... I avoid tuning pianos deliberately flat at all costs. They just don't sound right when tuned 50-cents flat! If the customer wants an instrument 'leveled out' or 'tune it where it is'...they can find [edit to follow - somebody else] ...



  • 55.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 11:50
    On 5/16/2013 8:19 AM, David Love wrote: > Again, I'm not arguing personal preference. I don't really give a > hoot how people want to do it. I'm simply saying that those who > argue that aural methods for pitch raising are *both* as accurate and > as efficient, or fast, time after time are not looking at the facts > or have no experience with the ETDs. I've heard that argument invoked second hand time after time after time, but I've never heard or read any first hand claims to that effect. Ever. Ron N


  • 56.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 12:25
    You have several people reporting first hand experience including me. What I don't see is aural tuners having firsthand experience with etds making claims. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com 415.407.8320 Ronald Nossaman wrote: > >On 5/16/2013 8:19 AM, David Love wrote: > >> Again, I'm not arguing personal preference. I don't really give a >> hoot how people want to do it. I'm simply saying that those who >> argue that aural methods for pitch raising are *both* as accurate and >> as efficient, or fast, time after time are not looking at the facts >> or have no experience with the ETDs. > >I've heard that argument invoked second hand time after time after time, >but I've never heard or read any first hand claims to that effect. Ever. > >Ron N > >


  • 57.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 17:41


    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Black
    Decatur AL
    256-350-9315
    -------------------------------------------
    ETD's win.....NEXT!







  • 58.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 18:01
    Whatever Thomas!  After 25 years, I know how to overstretch and get great results. I can pitch raise or lower and get a solid tuning in 2 hours.   ETD or not.  I'm really tired of this discussion. Let's change it!

    How about why Steinway M's stop the duplex on the lowest string there with a single going to the next hitch pin not in the duplex?  why is that?

    Aural nor ETDs win. It's who operates the tuning hammer that wins, period! The best ear that can't operate a tuning hammer will do more damage than anyone. 

    Looking forward to the next discussion.


    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 59.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 14:00
    On 5/16/2013 11:24 AM, David Love wrote: > > You have several people reporting first hand experience including me. Which is what I said. It's second hand hearsay to me. I still haven't heard or read anyone directly making the claim, which seems odd considering how often it's brought up and hammered on at length like it's rampant among (both of) those poor demented unenlightened troglodytes who haven't been converted to ETDs. Seems to me you're supplying both sides of the argument. Orange alerts at airports come to mind. It also seems like something worth all the glandular secretions it produces ought to leave tracks. Do any ETD users claim to be able to tell if a finished tuning had an aural or ETD pitch raise? > What I don't see is aural tuners having firsthand experience with > etds making claims. It's unanimous. I don't see either. Ron N


  • 60.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 14:26
    Have you ever actually spent any time using an etd for pitch corrections to see how they compare? David Love www.davidlovepianos.com 415.407.8320 Ronald Nossaman wrote: > >On 5/16/2013 11:24 AM, David Love wrote: >> >> You have several people reporting first hand experience including me. > >Which is what I said. It's second hand hearsay to me. I still haven't >heard or read anyone directly making the claim, which seems odd >considering how often it's brought up and hammered on at length like >it's rampant among (both of) those poor demented unenlightened >troglodytes who haven't been converted to ETDs. Seems to me you're >supplying both sides of the argument. Orange alerts at airports come to >mind. > >It also seems like something worth all the glandular secretions it >produces ought to leave tracks. Do any ETD users claim to be able to >tell if a finished tuning had an aural or ETD pitch raise? > > > What I don't see is aural tuners having firsthand experience with > > etds making claims. > >It's unanimous. I don't see either. > >Ron N > >


  • 61.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 14:10
    On 5/16/2013 10:58 AM, Kent Swafford wrote: > > If one makes it a habit to continue until the tuning stabilizes, one > will be less likely to argue in favor of multiple visits for pitch > corrections. Which is what the discussion was about. Ron N


  • 62.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 14:35
    I find I can pitch raise and tune a piano in two passes almost every time, with an earlier-than-usual return only rarely, when user needs warrant it. I used to do it aurally, and was quite comfortable with that. But now that I have RCT, I prefer the speed and accuracy of its pitch-change module to sweating and guessing and sometimes having to correct the aural approximations. It's pitch change, fine tune, bye-bye every time, and no lingering stability problems other than the usual detuning applied by the universe or whatever. My first-hand experience is that, for me, it is superior in accuracy, speed, reliability, and energy conservation to the same work done aurally. And when you're under the gun to finish on time, say on stage, it IS the difference between reliable success and cardiac rehab. ~Mark Schecter On May 16, 2013, at 11:09 AM, Ronald Nossaman wrote: >> If one makes it a habit to continue until the tuning stabilizes, one >> will be less likely to argue in favor of multiple visits for pitch >> corrections. > > Which is what the discussion was about. > > Ron N


  • 63.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 15:50
    On 5/16/2013 1:24 PM, David Love wrote: > > Have you ever actually spent any time using an etd for pitch corrections to see how they compare? I've certainly answered this question enough times but, no, I haven't. I've said many times that I have no doubt that a competently used ETD can produce closer and more repeatable pitch raises than I can aurally. What more do you want? You're still supplying both sides of your argument. This has nearly nothing to do with the number of trips it takes to get a piano up to pitch in any case, and doesn't seem to speak to anything at all that I can see, other than you not being able to tolerate the thought of someone NOT using an ETD. Ron N


  • 64.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 16:30
    Are you even capable of a civil discussion? The discussion, at least my part, has been to address the question of efficiency, accuracy and how stable the piano is or can be after a pitch correction. I have said all along that multiple visits are not necessary and attempted to address why some may find it so. The discussion moved beyond multiple visits for pitch raises some time ago, perhaps you should review. So far the only ones to argue against the merits of etds for this purpose seem to be those like you who don't and haven't used them. At least I've done it both ways and have some basis on which to make an argument. The question of efficiency in our work is a legitimate one and if you have nothing but snipe to contribute then crawl back in your hole and shut it. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com 415.407.8320 Ronald Nossaman wrote: > >On 5/16/2013 1:24 PM, David Love wrote: >> >> Have you ever actually spent any time using an etd for pitch corrections to see how they compare? > >I've certainly answered this question enough times but, no, I haven't. >I've said many times that I have no doubt that a competently used ETD >can produce closer and more repeatable pitch raises than I can aurally. >What more do you want? You're still supplying both sides of your >argument. This has nearly nothing to do with the number of trips it >takes to get a piano up to pitch in any case, and doesn't seem to speak >to anything at all that I can see, other than you not being able to >tolerate the thought of someone NOT using an ETD. > >Ron N > >


  • 65.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 16:40
    On 5/16/2013 3:29 PM, David Love wrote: > > Are you even capable of a civil discussion? I answered your question - again. > So far the only ones to argue against the merits of etds for this > purpose seem to be those like you who don't and haven't used them. Yet again, I haven't argued against ETDs for this or any purpose. Who has? > At least I've done it both ways and have some basis on which to make > an argument. I'm not arguing. You're doing that amongst yourself actively enough. > The question of efficiency in our work is a legitimate one and if you > have nothing but snipe to contribute then crawl back in your hole and > shut it. I can't help but wonder why you're so threatened by someone not choosing to use an ETD. But then I probably don't want to know. Back to my hole. Ron N


  • 66.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 17:15
    David: Ron is Ron:  Ron: David is David!  Can we please move along?. 

    The tuned piano is the goal, dammit!  I'm a bit tired of this banter.  Take it off line if you all want to keep on arguing.  I've been an aural tuner for 20+ years. but just got an ipad mini with tune-lab.  I really love it in the practice rooms here, but haven't tried it for a concert tuning.  Nothing here is more that 5-10 cents sharp or flat if I can help it, but that's because I'm here all day 365 days a year.  (yes, i got the message from HR saying I have 7 weeks of vacation and is maxed out!!)  I'm leaving Memorial Day Weekend for  5 days.

    Can we put this to rest? Each to his own, I say!  As long as the piano and owner are happy is all we should care about. Quit it!!

    Best,
    Paul


    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 67.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-17-2013 08:32
    Actually Paul, I enjoy listening to both Ron & David "discuss" topics.  There are nuggets of info there, each & every time.  Except for esoteric Piano Techs, many of us readers enjoy hearing both sides of a discussion, formulating agreement and new ideas for our own improvement.  And Ron's & David's expertise & differences shine thru some of the other "stuff".

    If you don't want to read about it, there's a scroll button on your mouse (or a finger on your iPhone).

    PS  I for one could care less about whether you have vacation saved up or not.

    -------------------------------------------
    Bill Fritz, St Louis Chapter Newsletter Editor
    pianofritz50@aol.com
    www.billfritzpianotuning.com
    -------------------------------------------





  • 68.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-17-2013 08:36
    Interesting that you care so little that you spent your time saying something about vacation.

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
    -------------------------------------------








  • 69.  RE: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-17-2013 10:25
    Discussions like this do remind me that piano techs spend far too much time by themselves going bing, bing, bing with an occasional bong. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com On May 17, 2013, at 5:35 AM, Paul Williams wrote: > > Interesting that you care so little that you spent your time saying something about vacation. > > ------------------------------------------- > Paul T. Williams RPT > Piano Technician > University of Nebraska > Lincoln, NE 68588-0100 > pwilliams4@unl.edu > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > Original Message: > Sent: 05-17-2013 08:31 > From: Bill Fritz > Subject: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits > > Actually Paul, I enjoy listening to both Ron & David "discuss" topics. There are nuggets of info there, each & every time. Except for esoteric Piano Techs, many of us readers enjoy hearing both sides of a discussion, formulating agreement and new ideas for our own improvement. And Ron's & David's expertise & differences shine thru some of the other "stuff". > > If you don't want to read about it, there's a scroll button on your mouse (or a finger on your iPhone). > > PS I for one could care less about whether you have vacation saved up or not. > > ------------------------------------------- > Bill Fritz, St Louis Chapter Newsletter Editor > pianofritz50@aol.com > www.billfritzpianotuning.com > ------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------- > Original Message: > Sent: 05-16-2013 17:15 > From: Paul Williams > Subject: Tuning passes vs Tuning visits > > David: Ron is Ron: Ron: David is David! Can we please move along?. > > The tuned piano is the goal, dammit! I'm a bit tired of this banter. Take it off line if you all want to keep on arguing. I've been an aural tuner for 20+ years. but just got an ipad mini with tune-lab. I really love it in the practice rooms here, but haven't tried it for a concert tuning. Nothing here is more that 5-10 cents sharp or flat if I can help it, but that's because I'm here all day 365 days a year. (yes, i got the message from HR saying I have 7 weeks of vacation and is maxed out!!) I'm leaving Memorial Day Weekend for 5 days. > > Can we put this to rest? Each to his own, I say! As long as the piano and owner are happy is all we should care about. Quit it!! > > Best, > Paul > . > > ------------------------------------------- > Paul T. Williams RPT > Piano Technician > University of Nebraska > Lincoln, NE 68588-0100 > pwilliams4@unl.edu > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > >


  • 70.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-18-2013 10:48

    Bill Fritz and Paul Williams,

    What courtesy is there in closing a discussion to a few in what is to be an open forum? Tune lab will work fine for concert tuning. Why are practice rooms considered most suitable? You neglect to observe many use ETDs for concert tuning 100% of the time, and succeed in doing so, and on the other hand, many aural tune in practice rooms with great success. Are ETD users afraid to admit this because somehow they get less credit in doing so? Why haven't any in this discussion, admit what many have witnessed with their own eyes?

    Having experience with the Sanderson Accutuner, RCT, and tune lab, just has not been rewarding as for others, amazing as the computer technology revolution has been in so many ways, that provides us such an open forum. More call backs were generated by aural tuning. Great and neglected friends and referrals have had different experiences; this doesn't mean working together is impossible. I respect the work of many ETD users no less than my own. Their success is due to so much more than ETDs, and never did it occur to be anything but happy for it. Piano technicians should succeed, not fail, and their techniques embraced by all, whether or not, shared. This discussion, carrying on under multiple rubrics now, though, has raised more questions than it has answered. In response, this remonstrates against falsehood in the argument, cultivated from both sides, in two basic areas.

    The Faster Argument

    It's faster. This is the most common justification. But what kind of business model, or ethics, is that? It is so self-serving, not client serving. Ethical business practice demands maximizing, not minimizing the time spent serving a client. Are you glad when your doctor can only see you for 5 minutes? Do you say thank God that is over, after spending 45 minutes in the waiting room? So a client is stuck at home waiting for you; not to deny some want you to finish quickly as possible. If it will help, go back, visit again, if possible. Saving people money is not ethical if it means providing inferior service.  

    Is it possible to pitch raise and tune aurally for an orchestra in 45 minutes if necessary, and be tuning for them years later, during which for the final 15 minutes they ask questions while others warm up? Yes. Been there, still doing that with the same orchestra, with the necessary time, years later. But to serve clients best, and put them, first, the piano technician needs to think about maximizing time, not minimizing it. Provide as much time is necessary, not as little, rush when absolutely necessary. That seems to me the obligation, not fast as possible. Perhaps when hiring a tuner it will make sense? Never used anyone for anything but shop work; i.e. basement.   

    Salaried institutional techs need to budget time in other ways, yes, but it does not occur to an ETD user nearly as self-evidently to do anything but tune a whole piano in so many cases when a few strings can be moved in half a dozen or so minutes, and the tuning be not only as adequate for the space, but gain the stability of being for the most part left alone. The myth of computer precision and the removal of human error in the machines they program galvanizes anxieties that prevent compromise with deficient staffing and budgets. Computers malfunction as well; when ETDs do, the results can be too bad to tune the piano again any other way but aurally. Been there, done that.

    It is the difference between having a dozen pianos bearable, or one piano in tune, and 11 dreadful. It is not faster to tune a whole piano, electronic or aurally, than a few strings, and experience with both reveals the plain inclination to do more than necessary with the ETD, and waste the time and energy everyone claims it saves, only to have 1 piano sound good, and 11, bad, instead of 12, acceptable.

    The Not Really Claiming it is a One Pass Pitch Raise Argument

    This, frankly, is denied far too much as being the pro ETD pitch. It is usually mixed with deception; what is claimed to be a two pass pitch raise is just one; it elaborates the faster argument, and not congruent with its purpose. It displays ignorance as to the way the software functions and as to multiple reasons that aural tuners may or may not pitch raise in two passes. Ignored, is the fact that overtones, or the harmonic series, will not be nearly as prominent until the piano is generally at pitch, not tuned. This is a big reason aural tuners use an extra pass - some claim to only need one - not stability, though that is part of it. Why a program designed to calculate necessary overpull on the basis of cents flat, not dim overtones, would require an extra pass, I do not know; its comparison with aural pitch raising systems is also invalid because it moves by note, A0 to C88, not staggered. It cannot be denied that redistribution of tension evenly across the scale is better for the piano, if not the string.

    The first pass is, again, not intended to be accurate with aural tuning, unless considered the final pass, for the most part the case with ETD tuning, though it tends to get more accurate with practice, and again the intent could be as much thought to make overtones more prominent, as is often claimed: "The string does not make a sound, it produces a vibration," so then, the refined and informed equal temperament, as that everything in the piano, esp. the strings not being struck by the hammer, requires that those vibrating in the region of the piano in which natural harmonics are being identified and used as reference points for tuning in the strings struck, must be moderately in tune in order to tune aurally at all. This is apples and oranges, two entirely different systems for pitch raise that are so unrelated that it is difficult to compare them, having disparate justifications. A first pass could even be considered just warming up, stretching, scales, preparation for the real thing. Nevertheless, aural tuners pitch raise and tune in one pass.  

    People call back more when tuning aurally. Just seems to make people happier. The proof is in the pudding.



    -------------------------------------------
    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
    -------------------------------------------








  • 71.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-18-2013 11:16
    I'll say one thing for you, Benjamin Sloane; you certainly offer some very interesting perspectives into the world of pianos, whether I understand all them or not.

    Thank you for being.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    tune-repair@allegiance.tv



  • 72.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-19-2013 05:33


    -------------------------------------------
    Tom Servinsky

    -------------------------------------------


    Ben,
    First of all, I'm envious of your writing skills. The sentences flow, the metaphors illustrate beautiful traits of thought, but after that I have no idea as to what you are arguing for, or against. I feel like  I'm being forced to read a Philosophy 101 textbook where the author laboriously debates the never ending the topic " what is...is?"
    So lets cut to the chase. I'm an aural tuner with about 80% of mine day spent on the concert stage, recording studios, and working privately for some of the better touring artists. I am also delighted to have a Sanderson Accu-tuner III  working constantly along with my ears. I've learned to use it wisely. I've learned to use it like a good accountant with a turbor-charged calculator. The accountant understands the rules, applies those rules, but is also wise enough to realize that when doing gazillion hours worth of adding figures, mistakes can happen. The calculator takes a lot of risk off of  doing continuous calculations and allows the freedom to do more.
    The ETD is my calculator...and quite frankly a very good teacher. It  has taught be so many wonderful lessons in advanced listening techniques. It has taught me to understand inharmonicity with absolute clarity and application. I've learned how use it to not only watch for false beats, but where the false beats are most likely coming from. It has taken a very tricky issue of doing gross pitch raises and making it into a very easy process...and with pretty good accuracy I might add.  And the biggest lesson is that I've adjusted my tuning procedure to a single mute, which if you've followed David Anderson's posts on the benefits of that approach, you would understand the scope of how that approach augments the whole level tuning. But that's a whole another debate for another day.
    Look at this way: the ETD has afforded me the opportunity to diminish the amount of valuable time needed on the tuning end of the business and then creates time to towards touching up action or tonal regulation issues. And in the turbulent concert world environment, being able to work at a blazing speed with excellent accuracy (in very tight time frame) is what separates the men from the boys. That whole package is what determines your worth to the artist and venue.  In the time that most are struggle with getting a temperament set, then doing one string per note the whole way through, I'm wrapping up the entire tuning. And I've cleaned up false beats along the way, corrected string leveling issues, cleaned up voicing issues, and not to mention making the piano sound a whole lot better. 
    Granted there are many who have been  introduced to the tuning business with only a ETD from the start. Maybe the argument is that they came into the business at the wrong time. Maybe the argument can be made that they can't fully appreciate the aural process.  And without a doubt, I would argue developing the aural skills first makes one appreciate the beautiful end result that much better.
    But I have to say having a good ETD added to my bag of tricks has made the whole process that much better.  that I would never go back to be only an aural tuner ever again. Bottom line is that the customer is getting a lot more bang for the buck.  So to your argument....who's getting cheated? 
    Tom Servinsky





  • 73.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-20-2013 05:28
    I'm with you the whole way, Tom. I bought an ETD many years ago - maybe 30+ years ago - and I haven't looked back. My first, second and nthird ETDs were Quartz Seiko ST361.. they were quite accutrate but tended to get dirty contacts in the rotary switch and became unreliable. Then I got a Seiko ST1000 which lasted me a number of years. When Glyndebourne started using UT in the Harpsichords I had to find an ET which would produce those temperaments. This I found in the Marc Vogel TLA CTS-5. Slightly different approach in use. I only use these ETDs in the middle 8ve anyway to set the bearings which I always check aurally. Sometimes I get a client who is interested in how I achieve such accuracy so I demonstrate as being a case of 'what you hear is what you get' and ask if they can hear the beats in a major 10th. Usually the answer is 'No' and they have to be taught in order to appreciate. These intervals are my 'invisible tools' and I set great store by them. As I get to the extreme ends of the piano I tend to use major 17ths. as these intervals can give extraordinary perception and thus great accuracy in the tuning.
    A challenge, then. Who can hear or use these intervals?. Do YOU use them? (if not why not) - Again - if not why not try? 
    Of course the general answer may well be 'Of course I use these intervals! I wouldn't have got where I am today without them!'
    With UT though the approach is totally different - but that's in the province of Fortepianos and Harpsichords and therefore out of the remit of this site.
    Keep tuning! Michael(UK)

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Gamble
    semi retired
    Brighton
    01273813612
    -------------------------------------------








  • 74.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-21-2013 03:01

    Thank you for responding Tom,

    How about calling ETD's Visual Tuning Aids? Or just Visual Aids? Calculator doesn't seem as precise a name for the purpose of your argument. Taking hard a science as math as a comparison with tuning could be misleading. The calculator does the math for you. Does the ETD tune for you? Let's take that argument to its logical conclusion, seeing you are leaving the math to the machine; now you probably will claim you are entering the numbers.  

    "I have no idea as to what you are arguing for, or against."

    1. The ability of piano technicians, both ear and eye tuners, to work together, at the same institution, and in the same guild, peacefully coexisting.
    2. From a conceptual posture, to obviate the risks inherent in contending for speed as a justification for anything, including aural tuning, i.e., a historical, artistic, and philosophical perspective, as addressed, in futurism, the manifesto of which was reproduced Nov. 7, in CAUT, under the rubric, "Rain & Pour, another take." For the sake of argument aural tuning was identified as potentially faster, but at bottom, this is a spurious argument to make, made, for the sake of those who stoop so low. No contractor who rushes does the job right in any profession, unless absolutely necessary. Maximizing, not minimizing the time devoted to the client is our ethical responsibility as piano technicians. I am for caution at every step, and not falling off a cliff in the process.
    3. In addition to this, pragmatism is not a legitimate basis for truth, nor does it make doing something right. Racial hygiene works for some. Does that make it right? Is it therefore, justified? Genocide, as a rule, works for the race that sponsors it. Should we then be all for it? As acknowledged, ETDs work for some, just fine. I know, too philosophical...
    4. An honest acknowledgement that when ETD users pitch raise they do not gain the stability that can be gained in two passes tuning aurally.

    "I feel like I'm being forced to read a Philosophy 101 textbook..."

    There are many philosophical, political, and artistic movements that overlap. Music History classes and literature accompanying them neglect these relationships, that may have a great impact on why we do what we do, and its justifications or lack of it. If we don't know why, then how do we know what we do? So much of the discussion on the Brahms temperament proves more informative than one cares to admit, and I am immensely grateful for the contributions of Fred Sturm, Paul Poletti, David Pinnegar, and others on the subject, but still have a philosophical understanding as a source of information taxed by a lack of understanding in languages envied far greater than you English creative writing skills.  However, it is clear from that fantastic discussion specialism alienates us from that Zeitgeist in a way that only can be rectified by a philosophical understanding of Romanticism, Classicism, and the like; not only artistic implications, but philosophical, political, and historical, for all decisions, tuning and otherwise, are most of all affected by the age. Grappling with the contradictions in that can be frustrating, but this must happen to determine, thoroughly, the answer.

    No one observes that historical temperaments if at all were most of all chosen autocratically by aristocrats, with whom and with that most of all privilege, not rights, governed tuning decisions, not scholarship, certainly, not democracy, at the heart of Romanticism, i.e., Rousseau.[1] Furthermore, the individualism of Romanticism, in fact would far less encourage an effort to identify equal temperament, something much more suitable to the Classical age; alternatives in Romanticism, would be encouraged, and embraced, not scorned. Providing a ubiquitous method like equal temperament would be much closer to the spirit of what precluded Romanticism. Progress does not necessarily take place in chronological order, and depends on how it is defined.

    Tuning remains a right to this day; more than ever, thanks to ETDs; it doesn't matter if you can't tune, or do not own a piano. Calculator? Who could add and subtract without it? Terrifying though it might be to identify through the lens of Fascism a philosophical and political revolt against nature, and Romanticism, not something concatenated with it, and with the destruction of nature, itself, in Futurism, find Hitler, and Mussolini, with the mechanization of war, the ETD cannot give us reasons for why it tunes the way it tunes, and like Futurism, is a revolt against the library, the school, and learning, to tune. Calculator? No. Fascists hated Romanticism, Revival, God, notwithstanding a resemblance to Milton's Satan. So how can those that use ETDs, those that have a right to tune, not a privilege, begin to understand those who were entitled, not enfranchised to do so? As Romanticism revolted against the social structure of Classicism, reason, and the ancient regime, with individualism, imagination, emotion, and democracy, Futurists revolted against schools and education, with technology, and the mechanization of society. The arbitrary and indolent fashion aristocrats - playing with thirds like naked Mediterraneans plucking fruit from a tree with one hand and a lute with the other - demonstrated the sensuality that possibly gave Schubert syphilis, the tuning of these aristocrats and the last vestiges of the ancient regime, still powerful enough to have had Schubert and friends arrested by the Austrian police for fear of revolutionary activities in his time, must have at some level been an embarrassment. Whether or not Schubert could be called a Romantic, music did not give Schubert a home selling tickets, the career Liszt had by popular acclaim, well as and more so, than patronage. Tuning came by whim, and fancy, most of all, to those rich enough to own a keyboard. Who among these had the energy to pitch raise or fix strings breaking doing so? Yet the clarity, order, and balance, quintessential to the Classical age, left far greater a desire, for something like equal temperament, than the age that followed, still.

    It should not be neglected to be observed, that another revolutionary, Thomas Jefferson, lived in Paris, and mingled with these men inundated with a decadence that provoked the rabble. Jefferson, "While right at home in the intellectual swirl of Paris," it is observed, "was at times less comfortable with the social milieu. He professed to be scandalized by the lack of domestic morality among French aristocrats,"[2] who were nothing if not lazy. Pitch raise? And by ear? A lot better things to do when one does not need to work a day in their life. In the states, also, a strong a cappella tradition in choral music from the church grew out of the state of both the organ and fortepiano as status symbols.  

    How does, though, after all, scholarship, outside of this milieu, reveal how those fortunate enough to own the latest manufacturer's design, these aristocrats, used any method to tune other than their own, or in the end, move them to rely on others, or more so, orders? Philosophy, with history, reveals other possibilities, however misguided, than internationally known standardized mean tone temperaments; the Classicists were far more ordered than that a lot. Or has it deceived me? Perhaps it sounds like I have too vivid an imagination. But I think we may make the mistake of assuming aristocratic harpsichord and fortepiano owners cared how the mechanics who designed and constructed them thought they should be tuned a great deal.

    Far as whole tone tuning, some do just that aurally to pitch raise. It certainly may be employed in the second pass if not the first.

    Who's Getting Cheated?

    In the virtual museum that is classical music, tuning aurally is part of a performance, to some. As a spectator one may feel cheated by an ETD as one would feel by a disklavier. So there are a number of answers to your query, "Who's getting cheated?" Are we really trying to duplicate the baroque performance with period tunings and historical instruments, by employing ETDs? The serendipity of human involvement could be considered much as a part of the performance on the part of the tuner as the pianist, historical or not, and it is too bad that the inadequacies of piano technicians have convinced so many musicians they are better off leaving the tuner out of the performance. The saddest thing is with all this electronic tuning going on, we aren't getting any better at it.

    Other things have changed. Cadenzas are discouraged, not required. Memorizing the music of another is required, not discouraged. Perhaps the acceptance of ETDs by musicians is an acknowledgement that times have changed.  



    [1] I am relying to an extent on an understanding of Romanticism as described by Jacques Barzun. An article of his on the subject, "To the Rescue of Romanticism," published in "The American Scholar," is available @http://theamericanscholar.org/to-the-rescue-of-romanticism/



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    Benjamin Sloane
    Cincinnati OH
    513-257-8480
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  • 75.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Posted 05-16-2013 17:25
    On 5/16/2013 4:13 PM, Paul Williams wrote: > > The tuned piano is the goal, dammit! I'm a bit tired of this banter. > Take it off line if you all want to keep on arguing. I'm not arguing and never was. Ron N


  • 76.  RE:Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 17:31
    Sorry, Ron,  I should say, "debating" or "discussing" .  It's still becoming a stale subject.  You are you; Others are themselves.  Let's move on.

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    Paul T. Williams RPT
    Piano Technician
    University of Nebraska
    Lincoln, NE 68588-0100
    pwilliams4@unl.edu
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  • 77.  Tuning passes vs Tuning visits

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-16-2013 18:56
    Clearly a subject that carries far too much emotion for a rational discourse and I'm happy to drop it. No agenda and not threatened by aural tuning, not running from the greater challenge nor would I compare the methods as Harvard versus community college??? I tuned aurally long enough. Just trying to identify objective outcomes based on different methods and objective criteria. The question is time, consistency and efficiency from tuning to tuning, day after day. People are arguing vehemently who haven't even done it both ways. So yes, time to move on until reason and rationality find their way back into the discussion. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com