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Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

  • 1.  Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-14-2014 17:56
    This question has been on my mind as a rebuilder for a while.  As a tuner, there is no real choice...you deal with what you've got in front of you..no choice. As a rebuilder though, I have the option to do either if I choose.

    I've been thinking about this, going back through all the pianos I tune. Most of the pianos I service have tuning pin bushings. A few don't. I seem to prefer the non-bushed pins, actually by a long shot. It seem to me that with the non-bushed pins:

    -its easier to gently flex the pin and get an aural reading form the front segment regarding termination and felt friction
    -it seems easier to settle things and make sure they are settled, because there is more aural feedback
    -the whole system seems to come up to non-ambiguous pitch more quickly
    -my stability on these is better than any of the bushed pianos I service...though this point may be suspect, since the non-bushed pianos are my own rebuilds or other high end well cared for instruments.

    I would have thought the bushed variety were more inherently stable, but frankly I just find them harder to read, and thus, at least for me, they are not inherently more stable than their non-bushed cousins.

    From the standpoint of providing tuners with the most grateful piano to tune that I can possibly give them, I'm curious how other tuners consider their preferences regarding bushed or non-bushed tuning pins. Any comments?

    Jim Ialeggio
    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-14-2014 21:44
    Interesting question Jim.

    To be frank, I don't prefer one over the other as a tuner.  I can't honestly say that I'm able to ascribe particular tuning characteristics exclusively to a piano with (or without) tuning pin bushings.  Each system, to me, has it's challenges.  I've had pianos of either ilk, that are an absolutely blissful tuning experience.  And the converse is true for me as well.  So.........my personal opinion is that it does not matter.

    -------------------------------------------
    William R. Monroe
    Madison, WI
    www.williamrmonroe.com
    -------------------------------------------








  • 3.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-15-2014 01:50
    I don't know if it would make a difference, but some of the Steinway studio models that I have experienced over the years seem to be a bit hard for me to figure out what's going on. Those particular ones do not have the bushings. Lot of pin movement.

    Keith McGavern, RPT
    Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
    kam544@allegiance.tv



  • 4.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-15-2014 02:16
    Have always noticed the difference, full iron frame with bushings are different to tune than those without bushings. I personally like the open plank, timber plank pianos for the control and ease of tuning. You will not be able to bend the pins much as this crushes the timber in the plank, but a little sets the pin. You will notice that many of the old birdcage pianos have elongated tuning pin holes between F3 and F4 from tuners trying to set the pins in the scale. Oh well.
    Tuning planks covered with a metal 1/16" plate, often you will find that the pin is resting on the metal and not the Plank itself.
    Pianos like Steinway with no bushings should be tuned in the same manner as the open planked pianos. With minimum amount of setting..

    Tony

    -------------------------------------------
    Tony Caught
    Piano tuner technician
    Cairns
    0427850737
    -------------------------------------------








  • 5.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-21-2014 21:14
    I think it's pretty clear that tuning pin bushings make a difference in the amount of flagpolling.  The preference for open faced pinblocks is likely because the tuning hammer grips the pin in relatively close proximity to the block thus reducing pin flexing.  Pin bushings accomplish a similar thing but not quite as well because they are not as solid a fit generally as the block itself.  But they do reduce the amount of movement.  Pianos without bushings and where the hammer contact on the pin is the farthest away from the point where the pin is held solidly will have the most movement, naturally.  All are manageable, of course, but the least amount of flagpolling (tuning pin characteristics notwithstanding) will be the open faced pinblock, next will be the one with good fitting tuning pin bushings and the one with the most will be the one without bushings. 

    There are obviously other factors that go into a how well a block tunes but if the plate is designed for bushings I'd certainly not leave them out.  There can be no real benefit.  I know some techs (quite established and respected ones in terms of design and such) who go so far as to drill out the webbing and install bushings when they can.  

    -------------------------------------------
    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
    -------------------------------------------





  • 6.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-22-2014 05:31


    -------------------------------------------
    William Truitt
    Bridgewater NH
    603-744-2277
    -------------------------------------------
    Which is what I do when rebuilding an old Mason & Hamlin, which will have no bushings but a plate webbing that is on the order of 3/8" thick.  Drill them out, install the narrow bushings.  They sure do tune a hell of a lot better, because they are not flagpoling any more.  To me, not doing that is a missed opportunity to make life easier for me or the guy behind me.  Adds about an hour to the rebuild.

    Will Truitt







  • 7.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-15-2014 02:17
    Have always noticed the difference, full iron frame with bushings are different to tune than those without bushings. I personally like the open plank, timber plank pianos for the control and ease of tuning. You will not be able to bend the pins much as this crushes the timber in the plank, but a little sets the pin. You will notice that many of the old birdcage pianos have elongated tuning pin holes between F3 and F4 from tuners trying to set the pins in the scale. Oh well.
    Tuning planks covered with a metal 1/16" plate, often you will find that the pin is resting on the metal and not the Plank itself.
    Pianos like Steinway with no bushings should be tuned in the same manner as the open planked pianos. With minimum amount of setting..

    Tony

    -------------------------------------------
    Tony Caught
    Piano tuner technician
    Cairns
    0427850737
    -------------------------------------------








  • 8.  RE: Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-15-2014 08:48
    I like open face blocks first and best. Other than that, both bushed and
    non bushed are within the range of normal adaptability, and either will
    do. One exception: I dislike the feel of pins riding on the plate, but
    that doesn't bother me as much as it used to. You adapt and press on.
    Ron N




  • 9.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-15-2014 11:07

    Ron N< I like open face blocks first and best.

    Haven't had the pleasure yet.

    Jim I

    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------







     Other than that, both bushed and
    non bushed are within the range of normal adaptability, and either will
    do. One exception: I dislike the feel of pins riding on the plate, but
    that doesn't bother me as much as it used to. You adapt and press on.
    Ron N








  • 10.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-16-2014 05:55
    The average plate is about 10 mm thick. The difference with an open block (OB) is this extra height of the coil above the block surface. You have to really force flag poling on an OB. Turning the pin is positive and I have not encountered one with overly tight pins. A dream to tune. There is an Imperial Bosey in a church, I wish they would get it tuned more often for the pleasure of tuning it :-)

    -------------------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 11.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-24-2014 19:29
    David Love wrote:
    "There are obviously other factors that go into a how well a block tunes but if the plate is designed for bushings I'd certainly not leave them out.  There can be no real benefit."

    Why is it then, that some companies such as Yamaha have gone from using tuning pin bushings to not using them in their top pf the line pianos? 

    I am not arguing -  I am honestly curious.  I have heard that there is a difference in tone and that Yamaha finally copied its greatest competitor. Can this be? If not, why would they have changed this?

    If I am correctly informed, Yamaha used a small pin, 7.00 mm (# 1, I believe) with their bushed plates.  When they went to un-bushed plates, they continued to use the thin pins. These were thinner and more flexible than #2 pins used by Steinway and others, and prone to a lot of flag poling and resultant tuning issues.  I do not know what pin size they use today in un-bushed plates.  Does anyone have accurate information?

    -------------------------------------------
    Jurgen Goering

    -------------------------------------------






  • 12.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-25-2014 12:09
    I haven't been following all of this thread, but thought I'd chime in on
    this interesting side of the discussion.

    Some years ago Kawai's laboratory experimented with the sound of a piano
    with and without pin bushings. The test went something like this . . .
    - Finish up a normal new Kawai EX concert grand with pin bushings, voice it
    and prepare for a recital in Kawai's recital hall at the Ryuyo factory.
    - Hire a pianist to perform a recital for the staff, which was recorded.
    - After the recital, they quickly lowered the tension, pulled the pins,
    removed the bushings, then put the same pins and strings back into the
    piano. The next morning the strings were tuned and settled and re-fitted to
    the hammers, and the piano was tuned multiple times by the same person who
    had tuned for the recital the day before.
    - That afternoon the same pianist came back and played the same recital,
    which was recorded again.

    Their conclusion: The sound was clearly different. Everyone heard it,
    including the pianist. This was apparently borne out with the recordings as
    well, although they haven't made them available to me yet (I'd love to have
    them and be able to play them at a PTG convention).

    Note, I didn't say the sound was better or worse, only different. Some of
    our MPAs said better, others not as good. It wasn't so different as
    sounding like 2 different pianos, but there was a change.

    In the absence of hearing the recordings I have asked them to describe what
    was different. The answer, usually something like "hmmm, different, but
    hard to describe." Mostly a more lively tone, not so much brighter as
    having more energy and color, similar to the change from muting or unmuting
    the aliquot scale. Also they said there seemed to be a little bigger,
    fuller tone, and the tonal envelope gave better sustain just following the
    attack.

    The Kawai EX has a fully doweled and mortised pinblock / stretcher design
    also, and they said that a rigid front end on the piano is probably required
    to hear the difference.

    In my own comparison of these pianos with and without bushings, I noticed a
    few things. I don't have the benefit of hearing the same piano with and
    without, but different examples of the same model with and without. I found
    that the resonant frequency of the tuning pins is lower, and I have no doubt
    that these contribute in a small way to the sound of the piano. You can
    hear them by dragging your fingernails across the tops of the pins.

    Another factor, only supposition on my part, is that the pin panel itself is
    a little more flexible without bushings. If the plate / pinblock /
    stretcher structure is not rigid the added flexibility might be a bad thing,
    while striking the right balance of flexibility (and in the right direction,
    maybe) with a mortised stretcher might give the best balance of rigid
    vibrational support of the plate without eating up the vibrations in a bad
    way. This is what an overly "floppy" front end of the piano seems to do.

    This is an awfully complicated topic, fraught with all kinds of variables,
    so it's hard for me to make clear conclusions about what is better.

    Relating to the pin size: Kawai pianos usually have 6.9mm tuning pins. The
    first unbushed EX pianos we received were strung with 6.9mm or 7.0mm pins,
    and I suggested that they try it with 7.15mm pins, that it would be easier
    to tune stably for concerts. The laboratory agreed and changed the pin
    size, but I never heard from them if they felt that this affected the sound.
    It definitely raised the pitch of the tuning pin "ring," but not as high as
    the 6.9mm pins in a bushed plate.

    A side benefit of this research is that Kawai found a good way in production
    to make the front of the piano more rigid while still keeping the stretcher
    removeable, which is important to our production method. So the new Shigeru
    and GX grands all have a thick and stiff stretcher bar that overlaps the
    pinblock. The pinblock extends out from under the plate towards the pianist
    a couple of centimeters, and there is a row of screws holding the stretcher,
    along with screws and dowels holding the pinblock to the inner rim and
    screws holding the stretcher to the outer rim at each end. The pinblocks
    are also butted up against the plate flange. All of this added stiffness to
    the front of the piano, which gave a little more power and sustain to the
    tone. These pianos still have bushed plates, though, and will likely
    continue to.

    The technicians who usually tune Kawai pianos with bushings don't like the
    feel of the unbushed pianos, and complain about the added flexibility of the
    pins. For me, having cut my teeth on American pianos mostly, I am very
    comfortable working with the flex of the pin when tuning. As long as the
    string coils are not way high and the string friction isn't excessive, I
    think they tune well.

    Ah, another overly long post . . . .

    Don Mannino




  • 13.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-25-2014 15:38
    Don,
    Interesting post. Thanks for sharing all that.

    I hadn't thought of the possible tonal component of tuning pin vibration, but, of course, it makes sense. Many parts of the piano vibrate quite a bit (as we find to our distress in searching out buzzes), and they are all bound to contribute as well. Rim, lid, keybed, plate, all contribute something to the mix whether we want them to or not. We usually ignore them, until we get the buzz, then we notice how strong they are at certain pitches (the ones that excite them), and how long that strength lasts. Which certainly could have voicing implications, among other things.

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-26-2014 00:56
    Don, thanks a lot for the interesting information.
    Do I understand then that the EX concert grands today do not have pin bushings? (and the concert Shigerus?)
    If correct, this would mirror what Yamaha does: bushings in the smaller pianos, none in the concert grands.
    Why these two different processes within the same brand?  (I can't think of other brands that do this)
    You mention a lot about the front end stability.  I suppose the smaller models are not quite as beefy there as the large ones?

    -------------------------------------------
    Jurgen Goering

    -------------------------------------------








  • 15.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-26-2014 07:39
    Jurgen,

    Just a hunch, but larger pianos tend to have nice long front segments. A long front segment, in my experience, allows me to use that  non-bushed pin advantageously in reading and setting front segment tension. I'm curious though what Don has to say on this...interesting post...

    Jim Ialeggio 


    Jurgen< Do I understand then that the EX concert grands today do not have pin bushings? (and the concert Shigerus?)
    If correct, this would mirror what Yamaha does: bushings in the smaller pianos, none in the concert grands.



    -------------------------------------------
    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
    -------------------------------------------






  • 16.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-26-2014 10:12
    Don did say (seemingly, in referring to Shigeru and Kawai he meant EX as well): "These pianos still have bushed plates, though, and will likely continue to." (End of next to last long paragraph)

    -------------------------------------------
    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@unm.edu
    http://fredsturm.net
    "When I smell a flower, I don't think about how it was cultivated. I like to listen to music the same way." -Federico Mompou
    -------------------------------------------








  • 17.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-26-2014 10:09
    Thank you for sharing this, Don. Clearly, history has judged greater stiffness in the stretcher/pinblock/plate webbing area favorably, and it's interesting to consider how tuning pin bushings might contribute to that. I am curious about your remark about the 6.9 mm pins not giving you as much stability as 7.15 mm pins in a concert situation. Why do you think that is? I've never noticed instability that I could blame on thinner pins in pianos with plate bushings (Yamaha) or open-face pinblocks (Boesendorfer). I am curious about your perspective on that.

    -------------------------------------------
    Mario Igrec
    http://www.pianosinsideout.com
    -------------------------------------------




  • 18.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-26-2014 16:04
    Mario,

    Please read my message more carefully. I did not say that the smaller pins were less stable.

    Don Mannino
    Using Windows Phone




  • 19.  RE:Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-26-2014 12:21
    Don,

    I'm not sure to which piano you are referring here. You said: 

    "In the absence of hearing the recordings I have asked them to describe what
    was different. The answer, usually something like "hmmm, different, but
    hard to describe." Mostly a more lively tone, not so much brighter as
    having more energy and color, similar to the change from muting or unmuting
    the aliquot scale. Also they said there seemed to be a little bigger,
    fuller tone, and the tonal envelope gave better sustain just following the
    attack."

    Which iteration (bushed or non-bushed) had "...a more lively tone.... a fuller tone... gave better sustain following the attack.." ?
    -------------------------------------------
    Alan McCoy
    Spokane WA
    ahm2352@gmail.com
    -------------------------------------------















  • 20.  RE: Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-26-2014 13:24
    In reference to the structure at the front of the piano, there are easy
    ways to often dramatically improve most any piano without ever getting
    to how plate bushings affect the tone. This isn't on the level of the
    majority of the committee agreeing that they can detect a difference,
    with the rest not, but is more like in the "different piano" category.

    For reasons that my opinions don't matter, belly bars are usually, and
    often severely under built. They are often made of a soft material like
    spruce, and cantilevered on a very narrow back bar. This makes a
    considerably less than rigid mounting frame for the soundboard, compared
    to the rock maple or "select hardwood" rim the rest of the soundboard
    perimeter sits on. My improvement in the bracing and solidifying of the
    belly bar can be installed in most any piano, and could even be done
    with a strung instrument with some inconvenience, but is best and most
    easily done with the soundboard out.

    A couple of 5/8" (16mm) or bigger steel rods are epoxied in place
    through the belly bar (the horizontal cantilevered part) and back into
    the piano's inner rim or a brace. This is superior to just putting a
    beam brace behind the belly bar because (killer "Bs") the steel through
    the bar supports and stiffens it full width torsionally as well as
    bracing it fore and aft. Or, say you want to get rid of the bell in a
    piano and install a brace and nose bolt instead. You can and should
    still install the steel rod, which can be easily embedded within the
    brace. You can also add a brace to not need a 4' steel bar to reach the
    rim, stopping the bar within the brace at 18" or so. Doing crude before
    and after tap tone tests on the top front of the belly bar with a wood
    handled tool shows the before tone to "donk" at a low frequency through
    the most critical treble half. After the bars are in and the epoxy set,
    the tap tone goes to a high frequency "clack". No, I realize this isn't
    going to tell me PRECISELY to the required multiple decimal accuracy how
    the piano will sound as a result of having done this, but it most
    certainly demonstrates having slowed the energy transfer rate into the
    belly bar by having both stiffened and significantly mass loaded it.
    This is precisely what I want. Keep the string energy cycling in the
    soundboard instead of pouring into the too flexible energy sink of the
    under braced belly bar.

    Another add on that is quite effective in stiffening the front of the
    piano is installing a couple of steel rod braces between the plate
    flange and the belly bar at the scale breaks. Sockets can be countersunk
    or ground in the plate flange, and threaded bolts with similarly shaped
    sockets in their heads can be installed in the belly bar. Used in
    combination with my steel bar bracing, you effectively brace the plate
    flange directly to the inner rim in the treble curve. The resulting
    assembly stiffness will be as good as anything existing in the industry,
    and far far better than most. Samick, I think, did the plate brace to
    the belly to good effect, but As far as I know, no one before me has
    done the steel bars through the belly bar to the rim, though Darryl
    Fandrich might very well have during his bracing and loading experiments.

    It's simple, cheap, and easy, and the result is amazing far beyond the
    difficulty. It's also one of those duh obvious things once you see it.
    The steel bars ought to go as high in the belly bar as is practical. I
    usually hide the lower one in the scale behind the end of the damper up
    stop rail, and plate the upper one about half way between that and the
    treble rim. I've found the 18" (46cm) length of 5/8" (16mm) steel, which
    I acquired cheaply by chance, to be adequate, though going to 3/4"
    (19mm) wouldn't hurt even if it produces no further detectable benefit.
    I wouldn't go bigger than that.

    To the belly shops out there everywhere, I recommend this. Then see what
    difference tuning pin bushings make.
    Ron N




  • 21.  RE: Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 02-26-2014 16:04
    Ron,

    Your message is what is commonly referred to as an.effort to hijack a thread. When.moving to a different topic, you might want to change the subject line.

    Don Mannino
    Using Windows Phone




  • 22.  RE: Tuning pin bushng or no bushings?

    Posted 02-26-2014 16:25
    On 2/26/2014 3:04 PM, Donald Mannino via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
    > Ron,
    >
    > Your message is what is commonly referred to as an.effort to hijack a
    > thread. When.moving to a different topic, you might want to change
    > the subject line.

    It wasn't an effort to do anything but add further information to the
    mention of reinforcing the front of the piano.

    Apologies for trying to participate.
    Ron N