Pianotech

Hey...do we have any pros that have worked with Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands? I've tuned this instrument for many years and have had reasonable success with everything but the lowest octave (singles). This is a early 80's instrument and has not been abused, how I have tried everything that I know to tune that last octave (RCT settings for cp70, direct line input, smart tuning samples, driving it thru speakers, etc) but usually I end up tuning it by ear to get it the close. The inharmonisity is wicked! I have talked with other techs about replacement of bass strings and understand that Mapes sells a set and others say that electric bass strings can be used. Customer would like the tone to be a little brighter but this instrument has leather wrapped hammers. Voicing?? replacements? I would appreciate any suggestions.

-------------------------------------------
[Anthony] [Frame]
[Piano Technician]
[Anthony's Piano Service]
[Centreville] [Virginia]
[703-470-6078]
-------------------------------------------

On 4/28/2014 1:54 PM, Anthony Frame via Piano Technicians Guild wrote:
> Hey...do we have any pros that have worked with Yamaha's CP 70s
> electric traveling grands? I've tuned this instrument for many years
> and have had reasonable success with everything but the lowest octave
> (singles). This is a early 80's instrument and has not been abused,
> how I have tried everything that I know to tune that last octave (RCT
> settings for cp70, direct line input, smart tuning samples, driving
> it thru speakers, etc) but usually I end up tuning it by ear to get
> it the close. The inharmonisity is wicked! I have talked with other
> techs about replacement of bass strings and understand that Mapes
> sells a set and others say that electric bass strings can be used.
> Customer would like the tone to be a little brighter but this
> instrument has leather wrapped hammers. Voicing?? replacements? I
> would appreciate any suggestions.

These things have always been untunable. I've never gotten the chance to
measure the scale in one, but judging from working with the result, it's
got to be a masterpiece of poor design. I think your best bet would be
to rescale the bass. This ought to at least make it less bad. As to the
hammers, you're probably stuck with what's there. I made a half dozen
replacement hammers for one of these a few years back, and they worked
well enough, but the bottom line is that this is not a piano and can't
be made to be one. Its one positive attribute is relative portability.
Ron N


Original Message------

Hey...do we have any pros that have worked with Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands? I've tuned this instrument for many years and have had reasonable success with everything but the lowest octave (singles). This is a early 80's instrument and has not been abused, how I have tried everything that I know to tune that last octave (RCT settings for cp70, direct line input, smart tuning samples, driving it thru speakers, etc) but usually I end up tuning it by ear to get it the close. The inharmonisity is wicked! I have talked with other techs about replacement of bass strings and understand that Mapes sells a set and others say that electric bass strings can be used. Customer would like the tone to be a little brighter but this instrument has leather wrapped hammers. Voicing?? replacements? I would appreciate any suggestions.

-------------------------------------------
[Anthony] [Frame]
[Piano Technician]
[Anthony's Piano Service]
[Centreville] [Virginia]
[703-470-6078]
-------------------------------------------

Hi Anthony.  Yeah, CP70's.  The fundamental is really hard to hear on some of the notes.  I usually use headphones and try to get some sort of mix between a sine wave (flute) and a sawtooth wave (strings) to get the most definition.  Still, the bass is the hardest to differentiate between the fundamental and the first harmonic.  Octaves are not the least bit agreeable either.  I even had an owner (years ago in Fort Collins, CO) stand some distance away and tell me what sounded better as I zeroed in on one set of beats vs. another.  It was a tough call.

I spent three hours tuning two of them for a recording studio recently.  This was a typical studio of the day  ........  in someone's house.  The room was full of equipment and the owner set me up with the resulting tone I was hearing in the headphones. 

I've never been fond of CP70's.  I'm still not.  They were designed to be used in smoke filled dance halls and bars with lots of background noise, screaming and hollering included, and ample amounts of alcohol being DRUNK!!!  As long as the tuning is close, that's good enough for that crowd.  Supporting a continued process on this is not my favorite source of income.

As for parts  ..........  I've seen cigarette butts used for dampers.  They seem to work quite well.  Leather over the hammers?  If it works, leave them alone.  Rescaling??  My first response  .........  what for?  The time and money spent COULD produce no gain.  (highly probable)  My second response  .........  if you do, or if anyone has, I'm curious.  You have my attention.

As for making repairs that have dignity on these things  .............  my goal on a traditional piano is to install new parts that, with the exception of new wood showing, work and look perfectly in line with their neighbors.  It's a worthy goal in those cases. 

You'll notice that there never was a CP70A or CP71 or CP80, etc.  About the same time Baldwin made a pathetic excuse for an electric piano with tuning pins that stuck out the back side of the beast. 

-------------------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999
-------------------------------------------



 [Anthony] [Frame]
[Piano Technician]
[Anthony's Piano Service]
[Centreville] [Virginia]
[703-470-6078]
-------------------------------------------

Hi guys,

I've tuned many of these over the years for both concerts and recording sessions.  They were designed to go on the road and not feedback at high volumes.  The lowest 10 bass strings are double wound and less than 28" long.  The most inharmonicty I have ever observed in bass strings.  I have created a RCT tuning file for them.  Basically OTS 4 from E2 - E7, I tuned the lowest 10 notes by ear as pretty clean single octaves and then recorded those values into the tuning file (the 6th partials are around +20¢!).  I've maxed out every setting on RCT and it doesn't come close to being able to tune the bottom 10 notes.  They should be tuned aurally.  Contact me and I will email you my CP 70 tuning directly from my iRCT to yours.  BTW there was a CP 80 which was an 88 note model.

The correct tag line on these is surely "Close enough for rock and roll"

Carl

-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 04-29-2014 08:33
From: Larry Fisher
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

Hi Anthony.  Yeah, CP70's.  The fundamental is really hard to hear on some of the notes.  I usually use headphones and try to get some sort of mix between a sine wave (flute) and a sawtooth wave (strings) to get the most definition.  Still, the bass is the hardest to differentiate between the fundamental and the first harmonic.  Octaves are not the least bit agreeable either.  I even had an owner (years ago in Fort Collins, CO) stand some distance away and tell me what sounded better as I zeroed in on one set of beats vs. another.  It was a tough call.

I spent three hours tuning two of them for a recording studio recently.  This was a typical studio of the day  ........  in someone's house.  The room was full of equipment and the owner set me up with the resulting tone I was hearing in the headphones. 

I've never been fond of CP70's.  I'm still not.  They were designed to be used in smoke filled dance halls and bars with lots of background noise, screaming and hollering included, and ample amounts of alcohol being DRUNK!!!  As long as the tuning is close, that's good enough for that crowd.  Supporting a continued process on this is not my favorite source of income.

As for parts  ..........  I've seen cigarette butts used for dampers.  They seem to work quite well.  Leather over the hammers?  If it works, leave them alone.  Rescaling??  My first response  .........  what for?  The time and money spent COULD produce no gain.  (highly probable)  My second response  .........  if you do, or if anyone has, I'm curious.  You have my attention.

As for making repairs that have dignity on these things  .............  my goal on a traditional piano is to install new parts that, with the exception of new wood showing, work and look perfectly in line with their neighbors.  It's a worthy goal in those cases. 

You'll notice that there never was a CP70A or CP71 or CP80, etc.  About the same time Baldwin made a pathetic excuse for an electric piano with tuning pins that stuck out the back side of the beast. 

-------------------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999
-------------------------------------------



 [Anthony] [Frame]
[Piano Technician]
[Anthony's Piano Service]
[Centreville] [Virginia]
[703-470-6078]
-------------------------------------------

Jeez, Carl.  Your right.  Once again I'm reminded of how long I've been in this business.

Nice of you to put out the effort for the rest of us with your RCT information.  I've never used one  .......  I'm an old fashioned aural tuning type  ...... but if anything can be done to tune these things better, the better for us all.

-------------------------------------------
Larry Fisher
Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
Vancouver WA
360-256-2999
-------------------------------------------

Wonder how OnlyPure would do?

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 09:50
From: Larry Fisher
...  Nice of you to put out the effort for the rest of us with your RCT information.  I've never used one  .......  ...

Kieth, 
I don't own OnlyPure, but did attend Bernard's class.  My understanding is that he is trying to prioritize pure 12ths.  That would be a terrible way to tune the lowest 10 notes on a CP 70.  All of the partials on those 10 notes are incredibly sharp and inharmonic.  The only interval that matters is a reasonably pure octave.  Slightly expanded 2:1.  In the tuning that I use, those fifths are beating, those 12ths are beating.  The 17ths are not beating normally.  If you tuned to have reasonably pure 12ths, the octaves would be beating terribly. 

Carl
-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 12:49
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

Wonder how OnlyPure would do?

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 09:50
From: Larry Fisher
...  Nice of you to put out the effort for the rest of us with your RCT information.  I've never used one  .......  ...

I have relatively recent successful experience tuning the CP-70. As Carl suggests, the CP-70 takes special handling, and the techniques to tune it are counter-intuitive. I disagree with some of the specifics that Carl writes, but since he provides a tuning file for the piano and I cannot currently do so, I am in no position to argue. 

To answer Keith's question, OnlyPure "expects" to be listening to piano tone, and I believe it is fair to say that the tone of the CP-70 falls outside of the normal range of piano tone. So OnlyPure doesn't by itself tune a CP-70 very well, but then, RCT's Chameleon cannot calculate a good tuning for a CP-70 either.

I will look for the opportunity to develop a tuning for the CP-70 that others can examine. With some ingenuity, it is possible to tune them.

-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 19:25
From: Carl Lieberman
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

Kieth, 
I don't own OnlyPure, but did attend Bernard's class.  My understanding is that he is trying to prioritize pure 12ths.  That would be a terrible way to tune the lowest 10 notes on a CP 70.  All of the partials on those 10 notes are incredibly sharp and inharmonic.  The only interval that matters is a reasonably pure octave.  Slightly expanded 2:1.  In the tuning that I use, those fifths are beating, those 12ths are beating.  The 17ths are not beating normally.  If you tuned to have reasonably pure 12ths, the octaves would be beating terribly. 

Carl
-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 12:49
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

Wonder how OnlyPure would do?

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 09:50
From: Larry Fisher
...  Nice of you to put out the effort for the rest of us with your RCT information.  I've never used one  .......  ...

-------------------------------------------
William Hocherl
Altoona PA
814-943-0759
-------------------------------------------
I take care of one. I usually do slightly wide 2/1 octaves because the CP-70 is used with other keyboards and the owner and I found that it matches best with his keyboards when tuned that way. But that was by the owner/user's choice.

He has rented it out as well when I tuned it. Most touring bands didn't complain. But once I tuned it and after the show the keys player asked, "Are you a professional tuner"? I didn't have the time to explain inharmonicity to him...






Original Message:
Sent: 05-01-2014 06:01
From: Kent Swafford
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

I have relatively recent successful experience tuning the CP-70. As Carl suggests, the CP-70 takes special handling, and the techniques to tune it are counter-intuitive. I disagree with some of the specifics that Carl writes, but since he provides a tuning file for the piano and I cannot currently do so, I am in no position to argue. 

To answer Keith's question, OnlyPure "expects" to be listening to piano tone, and I believe it is fair to say that the tone of the CP-70 falls outside of the normal range of piano tone. So OnlyPure doesn't by itself tune a CP-70 very well, but then, RCT's Chameleon cannot calculate a good tuning for a CP-70 either.

I will look for the opportunity to develop a tuning for the CP-70 that others can examine. With some ingenuity, it is possible to tune them.

-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 19:25
From: Carl Lieberman
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

Kieth, 
I don't own OnlyPure, but did attend Bernard's class.  My understanding is that he is trying to prioritize pure 12ths.  That would be a terrible way to tune the lowest 10 notes on a CP 70.  All of the partials on those 10 notes are incredibly sharp and inharmonic.  The only interval that matters is a reasonably pure octave.  Slightly expanded 2:1.  In the tuning that I use, those fifths are beating, those 12ths are beating.  The 17ths are not beating normally.  If you tuned to have reasonably pure 12ths, the octaves would be beating terribly. 

Carl
-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 12:49
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

Wonder how OnlyPure would do?

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 09:50
From: Larry Fisher
...  Nice of you to put out the effort for the rest of us with your RCT information.  I've never used one  .......  ...

A lot of traveling musicians used them in the late 1970's. I bet I tuned about 2 dozen CP-70's and CP 80's. I measured the harmonics in the middle bass and found them to be insanely sharp, like around 60 cents at the 8th harmonic. You simply can't find a good place to set the bass notes. Tune it by ear to satisfy whatever compromise you want to make.

Tom Gorley
Registered Piano Tuner
650-823-7166 cell
www.tomgorleytuning.com


Original Message------

I have relatively recent successful experience tuning the CP-70. As Carl suggests, the CP-70 takes special handling, and the techniques to tune it are counter-intuitive. I disagree with some of the specifics that Carl writes, but since he provides a tuning file for the piano and I cannot currently do so, I am in no position to argue. 

To answer Keith's question, OnlyPure "expects" to be listening to piano tone, and I believe it is fair to say that the tone of the CP-70 falls outside of the normal range of piano tone. So OnlyPure doesn't by itself tune a CP-70 very well, but then, RCT's Chameleon cannot calculate a good tuning for a CP-70 either.

I will look for the opportunity to develop a tuning for the CP-70 that others can examine. With some ingenuity, it is possible to tune them.

-------------------------------------------
Kent Swafford
Lenexa KS
913-631-8227
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 19:25
From: Carl Lieberman
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

Kieth, 
I don't own OnlyPure, but did attend Bernard's class.  My understanding is that he is trying to prioritize pure 12ths.  That would be a terrible way to tune the lowest 10 notes on a CP 70.  All of the partials on those 10 notes are incredibly sharp and inharmonic.  The only interval that matters is a reasonably pure octave.  Slightly expanded 2:1.  In the tuning that I use, those fifths are beating, those 12ths are beating.  The 17ths are not beating normally.  If you tuned to have reasonably pure 12ths, the octaves would be beating terribly. 

Carl
-------------------------------------------
Carl Lieberman
RPT
Venice CA
310-392-2771
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 12:49
From: Keith McGavern
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

Wonder how OnlyPure would do?

Keith McGavern, RPT
Shawnee, Oklahoma, USA
kam544@allegiance.tv

Original Message:
Sent: 04-30-2014 09:50
From: Larry Fisher
...  Nice of you to put out the effort for the rest of us with your RCT information.  I've never used one  .......  ...

I just speed-tuned one of these tonight while the crew patiently waited for me to do the "touch up" tuning the person who hired me said it would be.  Thanks to Kerry Cooper and a discussion in the Pianotech archives I had an idea what to expect and was able to download a page from the manual and pre-program offsets in Tunelab earlier today which gave me a really quick rough in.  After that the bass really had to be fiddled with and faked and compromised to be just sorta kinda ok.... I guess this instrument serves its intended purpose well enough, but it kind of makes a spinet sound like a concert grand.

-------------------------------------------
Brandon Robertson
Gardendale AL
205-612-5544
-------------------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 04-28-2014 14:54
From: Anthony Frame
Subject: Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands

Hey...do we have any pros that have worked with Yamaha's CP 70s electric traveling grands? I've tuned this instrument for many years and have had reasonable success with everything but the lowest octave (singles). This is a early 80's instrument and has not been abused, how I have tried everything that I know to tune that last octave (RCT settings for cp70, direct line input, smart tuning samples, driving it thru speakers, etc) but usually I end up tuning it by ear to get it the close. The inharmonisity is wicked! I have talked with other techs about replacement of bass strings and understand that Mapes sells a set and others say that electric bass strings can be used. Customer would like the tone to be a little brighter but this instrument has leather wrapped hammers. Voicing?? replacements? I would appreciate any suggestions.

-------------------------------------------
[Anthony] [Frame]
[Piano Technician]
[Anthony's Piano Service]
[Centreville] [Virginia]
[703-470-6078]
-------------------------------------------