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Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

  • 1.  Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-16-2015 23:53
    I have a recording studio client that wants to add a Honky Tonk upright to their available instruments. I am looking for anyone who has knowledge about the types of "styles" of Honky Tonk tunings that have reached some semblance of becoming an industry standard.

    Amount of unison spread and if the de-tuned unisons should extend into the bass are questions that pop up in my head. I have very little experience with the style so I am seeking the assistance of my peers.

    Thanks in advance!

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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 2.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2015 00:06
    There is lots of good stuff in the archives. The most recent thread is here: http://my.ptg.org/browse/alldiscussions/viewthread/?GroupId=49&MID=636505

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    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianoservice.com
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  • 3.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2015 02:10
    In the middle of 2013 a film composer client wanted his upright to sound like the de-tuned uprights used in many of the Beatles recordings. We did a lot of research to find out how they managed the de-tuning and the only description we could find anywhere was that they were "carefully detuned". 

    I won't go into detail of how they actually prepared the two pianos, but combining what we did learn about the two pianos at Abby Road, which are still in use today with that same careful detuning, this is what I wound up doing:

    Removed the practice rail and replaced it with a Mandolin Rail. This turned it into an adjustable tac piano.
    Tuned all the wound bass strings and the center strings of all the tri-chords to a standard A440. On the tri-chords only, I then dropped the left string -4¢ and bumped the right string +4¢. The result is a piano that is still essentially centered in tune but full of wonderful beats.

    The piano has not been tuned since because we both feel that it just keeps sounding better as time goes by. Eventually it will need tuning again and we have decided that next time we're going to try alternating the left and right detuned strings by an additional ±4¢. In other words, note 1 would have the left string dropped -8¢, the center string at 0¢, and the right string at +4¢. The next note would have the left string dropped -4¢, the center string at 0¢, and the right string at +8¢. 

    In the current detuning the result is a 1 Hz difference between both the left and right strings relative to the center string, and a 2 Hz difference between the left string and the right string. It sounds really good but we both think that it is, perhaps, a bit too subtle and uniform. In the next proposed tuning the differences will be 1 Hz difference between one outside string and the center string, and a 2 Hz difference between the other outside string and the center string, with a 3 Hz difference between the two outside strings. Alternating the shift of the outside strings every other note should make this much more random. I'm looking forward to that experiment. It may wind up being way too much, but we won't know until we try.

    Please note that my offsets are in reference to A4 at 440 Hz. 

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 4.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Posted 01-17-2015 07:43
    To add a more random feel, try as well temperament with the 4c offsets.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page


  • 5.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2015 12:34
    I feel a bit stupid this morning, and I'm surprised that Ron hasn't jumped on my case yet. That paragraph where I'm talking about alternating left and right detuning amounts just does't make sense. For months it has seemed like a  logical approach to randomness, but this morning I realized that it makes no sense, nor difference, whatsoever. And it adds a lot of work into something that is otherwise quite straight ahead and which with an EDT you can just breeze through. My apologies. 

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 6.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Posted 01-17-2015 13:27
    Well, yea, I knew it didn't make any difference, but then it didn't make
    any difference, so I didn't mention it.

    I did wonder though, since you're doing cents offsets, if the treble
    doesn't get awfully busy?

    Also, if the third string were tuned a couple of BEATS from the center
    along with the cents offset between the other two, could you get a nice
    fairly uniform shimmer across the scale along with the "honky"? Might be
    an interesting effect, or just noise.
    Ron N




  • 7.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2015 16:39
    That's why I'm looking forward to the next test. 

    I used an ETD to do the tuning and the detuning so my offsets were based on A440. I went for full beats at A4 but that means a cents offset in the settings. At A4, 4¢ = ~ 1Hz. I then let the EDT calculate that for the rest of the piano so as we move away from A4 it likely no longer works out to a 1 Hz beat. So, another experiment may be to do the offsets by ear and make them specifically one or two beats off across the entire piano. A combination of cents offset and specific beats, as you mention, could also make for an interesting result.

    We found that detuning the bass section, or more specifically the bichords, mostly made it sound muddy and undefined so we left those tuned correctly. It's mostly a right hand sound anyway.

    Interesting effect? Noise? Depends on who's judging.

    I'll report back if/when the customer lets me do the experiment.  


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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 8.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Posted 01-17-2015 18:35
    > That's why I'm looking forward to the next test.
    >
    > I used an ETD to do the tuning and the detuning so my offsets were
    > based on A440. I went for full beats at A4 but that means a cents
    > offset in the settings. At A4, 4?? = ~ 1Hz. I then let the EDT
    > calculate that for the rest of the piano so as we move away from A4
    > it likely no longer works out to a 1 Hz beat.

    Well, yes, I got all that which is why I asked, within that context, if
    the treble didn't get pretty busy. There would be three different beat
    speeds in the C-8 unison, two at around 9.7 (and for reasonably
    practical purposes the same) and one around 19.4. Yes, I understand
    that's the worst of it, and it gets closer to 1 and 2 beats toward A-4,
    but it does mean that the unisons get noisier (less pure) as they go
    farther above A-4. Which is why I asked, there being a considerable
    difference between 1,2, and 19bps.


    > Interesting effect? Noise? Depends on who's judging.

    Cases in point, rap and prepared piano, but then I'd consider 19 beats
    in a unison noise too. Yea, I know, intent counts. Yes, that is supposed
    to smoke like that...
    Ron N




  • 9.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-17-2015 19:30
    So, Ron... You are recommending sticking with uniform beat rates for a uniform beat in every note rather than a cents offset that will actually produce a wide variation of beats, yes? That actually makes sense. 

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 10.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Posted 01-17-2015 19:45
    I don't have any experience with this to be recommending anything. I
    just asked if the TREBLE WASN'T PRETTY BUSY with the high beat rate.
    Ron N




  • 11.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Posted 01-18-2015 09:01
      |   view attached
    Here's a list of cents/cps and cps/cents for each note made from a theoretical list of ET frequencies once supplied by S. Birkett.

    At A4, there's roughly 4 cents/cps or .25 cps/cent
    At A7, there's roughly .5 cents/cps or 2 cps/cent

    So the beat rate developed by the outside strings at A4 would be 2 bps and 16 bps at A7 with the same +/- 4 cent offset applied.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page
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    Attachment(s)

    doc
    cents_cps.doc   98 KB 1 version


  • 12.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2015 09:12
    Folks -
    I'll admit that I'm not as fluent with the beat rate discourse as I should be, but my observation, beyond any personal defensiveness, relates to the almost concurrent thread that was running on this list, : "Are these hammers moving?", which lead some of us to explore the range of tuning, and tone, that we broadly refer to as 'honky tonk'.  It seems almost humorously absurd to be talking about exact offsets for a tuning category that is, ultimately, a function of circumstance, and accepts probably the widest possible range of variation.  It is indeed challenging and worthwhile to be able to quantify a particular gradation of the honky-tonk genre of tuning, but there remains something about this discussion that needs to be kept in some perspective, which is not to say that you should stop talking about it.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 13.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2015 07:37
    The "busyness" in the high treble might be a moot point, as the honky-tonk effect heard on recordings is typically in octaves 3-5, at least all the ones I can recall hearing.

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    Kent Burnside, RPT
    Franklin TN
    615.430.0653
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  • 14.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-21-2015 21:37
    I wrote the following article about five years ago.  It is one experience with the honky tonk request.  To me, many of the suggestions seem mild.

    The Weird Stuff: The Dornfeld Bierstube Tuning

    Bruce Dornfeld, RPT

     

    Last month I got an unusual request.  My client, Bob Baker of Electric Orchestras, would mail a tape recording of Crazy Otto to me.  He said, "Listen to Crazy Otto's piano.  I want that sound.  Can we tune two of my pianos to sound like Crazy Otto?"  He had recently talked with Art Reblitz who told him that any piano tuner who listened to it could figure out what to do.

     

    I got the tape and put it on the upstairs stereo.  It was fun, no holes barred, ragtimey jazz, with drums and bass accompanying the piano.  Crazy Otto was born in Germany and was a big draw in the Hot Club in Paris, and many other jazz clubs in the 1940s and 1950s.  He recorded for Decca in the fifties (Photo 1).  The liner notes say that he used his "tipsy wire box" to get his sound on the piano.  Before he would perform, he would "prepare" the piano first.  He was not trying to make it sound like a Javanese Gamelan, the way John Cage did; he made it sound like an old barroom piano.  We have not found anything written about how he did this, but we suspect a tuning hammer was involved.

     

    When the tape was playing, my nine year old son came up for a bath.  He asked, "What is that?"  I just told him it is Crazy Otto, and he started dancing.  He danced to four or five tracks.  I have heard that in Nashville, some studios use a special tuning to get a honky tonk sound.  I seem to recall that, in the three string unisons, the left and right strings would be tuned two or three cents above and below the center string.  This gave me something to go on.  I tried tuning this way on my old upright in my shop; it was way too tame.  Next I tried tuning the bichord strings three cents above and below where they would normally be.  The middle was tuned with the left strings five cents flat and the right strings five cents sharp.  In the top octaves, it was eight cents high and low.

     

    I tried this on one of Bob's pianos and he kind of liked it, but wanted more.  We listened to the old Decca vinyl record on his stereo and decided it was not enough.  So the bass strings were tuned five cents flat and sharp.  The center section was tuned ten cents flat and sharp. The top octaves were tuned twelve cents flat and sharp.  Yes, that means a difference of twenty-four cents in one "unison."  I juiced the hammers up to get a much brighter sound.  It sounded perfect!  I played some Joplin rags and some blues riffs, and it was the sound we were trying for.  Bob dubbed it: the Dornfeld Bierstube Tuning.

     

    Our biggest technical concern was the possibility of string breakage.  Pulling bass strings up five cents high is more than I do when performing a pitch raise.  Twelve cents high in the treble sounds like a lot too, but no strings broke.  I have run into many pianos that were sharper from high humidity, or had the top notes tuned fifty cents or more higher.  The tuning was done with a Sanderson Accu-Tuner custom measured for each piano with a normal, moderate amount of stretch.  After tuning all of the center strings of the three string unisons as normal, the left strings were tuned.  A strip of thin key bushing cloth worked well for strip muting the center and right strings (photo 2).  The Accu-Tuner was set for ten cents flat, so all of the left strings would be offset the same amount.  After the left strings were tuned, the thin strip was inserted between the middle and left strings.  Then the right strings were tuned sharp.

     

    Some of you might wonder why tune so precisely to get the "out of tune" effect.  These pianos will be part of Electric Orchestra's automated Hot Jazz unit.  Along with the piano will be a tuba, saxophone, banjo, trumpet, and clarinet.  Even with the really wide "unisons" we still need all of the instruments at the same pitch and in tune with each other.  We also need a controlled and standardized way of getting this sound.  It certainly is not everybody's cup of tea, but it is a powerful and distinctive sound.  For his hotel lobby and commercial clientele, Bob thinks it will give him a competitive advantage.  A week after playing the Crazy Otto tape upstairs, I played it for my wife on the way to pick up our son from baseball.  He got into the car and within five seconds, asked "Is that Crazy Otto?"  That fits my definition of a signature sound.



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    Bruce Dornfeld, RPT
    North Shore Chapter
    Northbrook, IL
    (847) 498-0379
    bdornfeld@earthlink.net
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  • 15.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2015 11:56
    My two cents, give or take.

    Do technicians ever over-complicate things? Never, I say!

    Living in the middle of cowboy country (Fort Worth being affectionately nicknamed "Cowtown"),
    I get requests for this at conventions and such where the local host organization wants to play
    off the "Old West" theme.

    You can spend all the time you want to measure every string and nail it to a uniform deviation.
    Seems like a lot of unnecessary work when you could just nudge and get pretty much the
    same result. Leave the center string alone, move left/right up/down a beat alternating
    every note or every few notes, you should get a nice "shimmer" as Ron puts it. The feedback
    is generally: "wow - this is exactly what we were hoping for.." This should make it easy to
    reset the piano when the event is over, and this is also is often
    exactly what I see when scoring the unisons in the RPT tuning exams.

    If you want the piano brighter to emulate tired hammers - if the piano will stay that way,
    lacquer the crowns, or install a Ukelon or mandolin rail. I have seen thumb tacks inserted on
    a few. If the piano needs to recover, try bringing the letoff just up to motion blocking/bobbling,
    which can be easily reversed when the piano needs to be back to normal.

    Don't think so hard. You'll mess up your brain.


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    Dave Conte
    Owner
    Fort Worth TX
    817-581-7321
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  • 16.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2015 14:03
    But analyzing and complicating things is what we do. If the solution is too simple then it must be wrong. <- grin ->
    I must remember to put my Occam,s Razor back into my tool case.  

    -- G

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 17.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-21-2015 23:52

    Thanks everyone for the help so far. I am going to see if Crazy Otto is on U-tube. I am going to ask the engineers to find me recordings of honky-tonk sound they like and dislike. I know I can just wing it in the end but knowing what some have seen/heard/done in the field helps my confidence.
    Ed
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    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
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  • 18.  RE: Honky Tonk tuning "methods"

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-22-2015 03:05
    Crazy Otto was actually Johnny Maddox. He started using the name Crazy Otto after his success with "The Crazy Otto Medley", which went to #2 on the Billboard Charts in 1955. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIZW8IG2HSE

    He recorded a lot. Almost exclusively Rag Time/Honky Tonk stuff. He even has a star on Hollywood Blvd. He was also an avid collector.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAMo1EEIcrk

    And search as I did, I could find no info on how his piano was tuned. The closest I could come pretty much follows the discussion we have already had here. One reference confirmed what Bruce Dornfield said in his article and that is that the detuning of the L&R strings needs to be excessive. The tuning method I posted he would have considered too tame, and it doesn't come close to the sound that Maddox achieved. On the other hand, it does almost nail the sound of the out of tune piano that The Beatles used, which was our goal. 

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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