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Diamond Tuning PIns

  • 1.  Diamond Tuning PIns

    Posted 08-12-2015 22:51

    About to order tuning pins, talking to another rebuilder, he said, of late, Diamond pins have come through his shop with quality issues significant to make him change brands...varying diameters, beckets different size holes on the two sides of the pin.

    Are others, with recent Diamond stock coming up with similar quality issues? My last order 6 months ago was okay on the becket front, but diameters were variable...I kind of accept this diameter thing as a given, though.

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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 2.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-12-2015 23:12

    I don't have experience, per se, with Diamond, but in regard to diameter difference, I agree with you in that there is only so much you can do. One could measure every pin, and go by order of size, but then one would need to measure not only the inside of every hole, but also measure the wood density, to match the pins that are going to go in each hole.

    Yes, one would want as much uniformity as possible, but at what expense, in the matter of time? And is it really going to make that much difference. I think if you took the torque of every pin on even the best quality piano, you would probably come up with a 5% - 20% difference throughout the whole pin block.  

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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  • 3.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2015 00:23

    OK.  Jim or others who are rebuilding.   With regard to diameters.   Exactly how much variation are you seeing?  Pins being out of round? or inconsistent from pin to pin?  How much?   Jim, when you say you accept this [inconsistency] as a given, do you notice it at all in the results?  

    Wim, 

    I find your comments odd, especially in light of the discussion being had on ptg-l, regarding PTG and the maintenance of standards.  I'm not sure you really mean these:

    "there is only so much you can do."
    Yes, that's what were about to consider.

    "One could measure every pin,"
    Yes, one could, and does.  It doesn't take that long if you know what your tolerances are.

    "then one would need to measure not only the inside of every hole, but also measure the wood density, to match the pins that are going to go in each hole."
    Tell me you're not serious.  If you're drilling a new block, and you know what you're doing, you expect to produce a certain consistency, if that's important to you

    "Yes, one would want as much uniformity as possible, but at what expense, in the matter of time? And is it really going to make that much difference. I think if you took the torque of every pin on even the best quality piano, you would probably come up with a 5% - 20% difference throughout the whole pin block."
    Taken as a whole, I'm genuinely baffled by the attitude, but then again, not necessarily.  We're vaguely acknowledging the idea of a standard but almost immediately sacrifice it to the expedience of time (and money), and comfort ourselves with the conviction that it all doesn't make that much difference.

    Well, I guess that's the question.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 4.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Posted 08-13-2015 08:59

    <With regard to diameters.  Exactly how much variation are you seeing?

    up to .004-005" on outliers, .003 within range of acceptable.

    < Pins being out of round? or inconsistent from pin to pin?  

    Always

    < Jim, when you say you accept this [inconsistency] as a given, do you notice it at all in the results?  

    Having 20+ years of precise machine and tooling setup for water-tight cope and pattern, mortise and tenon joinery, one gets to know the limits of accuracy possible with even finely calibrated woodshop machinery. Add to this the limits of the consistency of the materials, and limits of accuracy of the materials we purchase and have no control over. In a pinblock/pin fit, depending on the density and resilience of the block, my experience has been that the requirements of precise targeting and consistency of pin torque exceed the limits of both the machinery/tooling and the materials, double drilling or not. This is why I say I accept the inconsistency as a given.

    Dense blocks like Delignit, even if its only as a veneer, push the limits of consistency further than forgiving blocks like Bolduc or M&H. So I final fit the installed torque, no matter what the block, by exercising the pin, if necessary, like factories like the one in Queens are reported to do.  This is a pain, but my pianos are easy to tune...I spend much effort on the ease of tuning and rendering end, because a piano that is gracious in its acceptance of a tuning will allow tuners to get the most out of the piano's sound potential. If a piano is a pain-in-the ass to tune, the tuning will always be acceptable and short lived at best, rather than  stable and capable of a real fine tuning.  

    My procedures and machinery continue to evolve, but there is a threshold of consistency beyond which further improvements never materialize.

    Actually in talking with Jude Revely, he suggested WNG's pins as he's mikeing them out with more consistency than the high end German ones...uhhh...made in China...go figure


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    Jim Ialeggio
    grandpianosolutions.com
    Shirley, MA
    978 425-9026
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  • 5.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2015 09:17

    Thanks.  

    My procedures and machinery continue to evolve, but there is a threshold of consistency beyond which further improvements never materialize.

    So you're constantly striving to maintain an acceptable level of inconsistency.  Since you've come to terms with the inevitability  of that threshold,  the only remaining things that can change are your persistence in striving, or the level of what you deem 'acceptable'.  Not quite the same sensibility as:

    "...but at what expense, in the matter of time? And is it really going to make that much difference. I think if you took the torque of every pin on even the best quality piano, you would probably come up with a 5% - 20% difference throughout the whole pin block. "

    A votre sante!

    Oops.  Wrong list to be talking about avoting.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 6.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Posted 08-13-2015 10:24
    > Dense blocks like Delignit, even if its only as a veneer, push the
    > limits of consistency further than forgiving blocks like Bolduc or
    > M&H.

    Using a Delignit capped low density block indicates that this is not the
    case. The unforgiving nature of the dense blocks is one of the reasons I
    developed the hybrid block, and it has proved to be quite accommodating.

    Since I started using these blocks, I quit micing pins altogether and
    find torque consistency with double drilling to be quite reasonable. As
    good as a factory in Queens, say, but without the tricks. I find that
    most of the torque inconsistencies techs complain about are the fault of
    their drilling techniques rather then the pins.

    Steinway mics each of their pins before installation, right? Do any
    manufacturers do this? I know Baldwin should have, with the ridiculous
    block they used in their grands, but even they didn't.


    Denro, blue. They also have a very nice toothy thread cut to them, that
    I like a lot.
    Ron N




  • 7.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2015 17:58

    What type of block do you tend to use under the delignit cap and how thick is the cap? 

    And then what size bit are you using for a 2/0 tuning pin
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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 8.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Posted 08-14-2015 12:53
      |   view attached
    Okay, I'll try again. Maybe HL will bless me with a delivery this time.

    Schaff's cheap rotary cut multilam with 9mm Delignit cap. Or a top
    dollar 5 ply quarter cut maple block with a 9mm cap. The performance is
    equivalent, if not the cost.

    Information attached.
    Ron N


    Attachment(s)

    doc
    Composite Pinblock.doc   126 KB 1 version


  • 9.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-14-2015 19:59

    Thanks, got it.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 10.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-12-2015 23:46

    Not that long ago, I think someone related a problem with strings slipping, which they tracked down to the edges of the becket holes being somewhat rounded, or at least being less than severe.  I don't recall if they actually mentioned the brand, but the implication seemed to point to Diamond.  If you have any samples, check.

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    David Skolnik
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    914-231-7565
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  • 11.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-13-2015 04:48

    My only issue has been that the hole for the beckets (does it have a name?) have been rounded at the edge which can cause the becket to slip. I prefer Denro for that reason even though the Diamond finishes are nicer (talking about blued pins). Size variations have not been a concern.

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    David Love RPT
    www.davidlovepianos.com
    davidlovepianos@comcast.net
    415 407 8320
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  • 12.  RE: Diamond Tuning PIns

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 08-14-2015 12:00

    We had the rounded becket hole with one pin, one time, and it happened to be a Denro pin.  The tuner I had sent redid the string and thought he had it, but I went back the next day and it happened again, so I looked closer and found the problem. That was my sole experience with a string slipping out. 


    Ruth Zeiner
    ruth@alliedpiano.com
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