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Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

  • 1.  Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-06-2015 20:48

    I am working on a pearly white 5' 1980's weber grand, by samick. It has serious regulation issues.

    About 80% of the hammers are bobbling, double, triple striking, ect.

    Only the upper most treble break was functioning reasonably, and had hammers that actually were having letoff. 

    Nothing appeared visually warped.

    The measurements indicated the piano was not reaching letoff: The Mid range key dip was only about 8mm or 5/16, lacking about 1/8" needed for proper letoff. String to hammers measured 2 1/4" in the bass and 1 7/8" in rest of the piano.

    Any ideas? have you had this happen? The customer does not know what kind of exposure the piano had previously. 

    Thanks, Leif


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    Leif Mathisen
    Piano Technician Steinway of Bellevue
    Redmond WA
    425-628-4356
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  • 2.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 04:14

    If the serial number is between 050000 and 118750 of the Weber it probably has sustained expanding action brackets on the bass end. Click the Accoustic Parts and warranty  link at http://wwwyoungchang.com/index.php/about-us/contact-us. Young Chang, Wurlitzer, Weber, Knabe, Cline and PianoDiscPD series from 1990 and 1998 had an incorrect alloy alloy put into the action brackets by a third party YC had outsourced to. The brackets will need to be changed out by contacting Young Chang for replacements. I had this happen recently to a clients 1994 Wurlitzer.

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    Kevin Magill
    Williamsburg VA
    757-220-2420
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 16:56

    Interestingly enough, it is serial number 108,000 something.

    Thanks.

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    Leif Mathisen
    Piano Technician Steinway of Bellevue
    Redmond WA
    425-628-4356
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 06:38

    Expanding brackets cause the hammer to block. Start with bedding the key frame. Level the keys and set the dip to 10.2 mm. Set the hammer line to 47 mm. A top action regulation should take care of it.

    The bobbling is coming from the inability of the jack to clear the knuckle and it is bouncing of that. Sufficient dip and hammer blow will allow proper jack motion. You want the jack to just clear the knuckle at full dip and not be buried into the stop felt.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 5.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 08:45

    If you are having problems achieving LO, perhaps the wippen rail moved forwards. This would account for the long blow distance and short dip (if the keys are off the back rail). The spread should be 113.5 mm.

    If the LO dowels are turned down to almost falling off the studs, it's expanding brackets. But from the symptoms you described, it's regulation issues.
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    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 6.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 07:28

    Are you certain it was made by Samick?  Those symptoms sound like a Young Chang-made Weber with the expanding action brackets, roughly 1988-1995 IIRC.  If the serial number begins with G or YG it's a Young Chang. Also look at the color of the brackets--the affected ones are the color of pewter.  If this is the case, the company will replace the brackets for free.

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    Kent Burnside, RPT
    Franklin TN
    615.430.0653
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 16:57

    Yes, The serial number is G 108,000 

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    Leif Mathisen
    Piano Technician Steinway of Bellevue
    Redmond WA
    425-628-4356
    ------------------------------


    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2015 17:06

    Contact Sam at Young Chang,  sson@ycapiano.com, and he'll send you a new set of brackets. The brackets are free, but you have to charge the customer to replace them, and probably do action regulations. I usually charge about $500 - $600 for this.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 17:24
    I am in the process of doing one right now. It's actually a 1988 Wurlitzer G452. It has the bad brackets. Here's a quick photo I took of the end brackets side by side. Action ratio was supposed to be 112.5. These were 117mm. The bad brackets are gray. Good ones are gold.

    You have to plug and re drill the action bracket screw holes on the frame and get about a 1/4 inch longer screws but it's pretty straight forward.

    Good luck,

    Rob McCall
    McCall Piano Service
    Oceanside CA.


    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 17:29
      |   view attached

    Natural, Lower Logic filtered out the photo I attached.  Let's try it again...

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    Rob McCall
    Vista CA
    951-698-1875
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 17:36



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    Rob McCall
    Vista CA
    951-698-1875
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 17:39

    Why, for the love of a higher power, does HL put the photo upside down??!? It's right side up on my camera, same on my computer.  When I insert, because it didn't like it as an attachment similar to how every other mail program since the 1980's works, it puts it upside down.  

    I give up.  I try and help, and this forum is an obstacle.  Going back to Pianotech google groups.

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    Rob McCall
    Vista CA
    951-698-1875
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 17:59
    I got it, finally, and right side up. The aspect ratio was badly
    butchered though, so it still feels familiar. This is nothing like new
    technology, and failure to function is nothing like unusual with the
    ever more legendary Higher Logic social media and catfish farm. A
    picture is worth a thousand failed attempts to post.

    It's an adventure.
    Ron N


    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 17:57

    Wow Rob, I can see the difference. It looks like its warped up to 1/2" Forwards? Yikes.


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    Leif Mathisen
    Piano Technician Steinway of Bellevue
    Redmond WA
    425-628-4356
    ------------------------------


    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 18:19

    With the Letter G before the serial number, it is a YC and is in the expanding bracket period but the symptoms you described do not jive with the usual expanding bracket syndrome. Maybe someone replaced them and did not regulate the action. You should take a closer look. Also there are two different bracket executions, I think  they are the inner brackets. So you need to know which ones to order; YC doesn't know by the serial number... if you can get in touch with them. Take measurements.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 16.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2015 18:38

    As far as replacing the brackets, I've found it to be pretty straight forward. Unless someone before you has tried to regulate the action, there is not much that needs to be done in the way of regulating. (If someone before has tried to regulate the action, then all bets are off, and you might have to start from scratch.

    But speaking of action spread. If the action has not been touched, then it's a relative easy procedure. Never mind the action spread. It's supposed to be 12.5 cm. But I've found that if you replace the end brackets first, and line up the action rail so that the jack is where it's supposed to be in relationship to the knuckle, never mind what the spread is. It works. I've done this about a dozen times. A couple of times I tried to get the action spread right, and it threw off the whole regulation. But when I lined up the jack with the back of the knuckle core on note 1 and 88, bam, the regulation fell into place. Yes, I had to adjust blow, let off and drop, but nothing out of the ordinary.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 19:40

    Pre '92 the spread is 112.5 mm, after is 113.5 mm. More important than aligning the jack (wherever it might be angled) to the core, is aligning the core to the jack center pin.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 18.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2015 21:58

    John

    That's a new one for me. How do you align the core to the jack center? Not only is that quite a distance, but there is the angle to consider, too.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 09:45

    Do not attempt to regulate it until the action brackets are replaced. I started my research on a similar problematic Wurlitzer. Pearce piano atlas had me suspect this piano was built by Young Chang at the time although I originally thought the same that it was a Samick. Mario Igecs book Pianos Inside Out has a side note on this on page 149 that I came upon that supported this. It was so bad I could not pull the action out as the drop screws on the top of the stack would not allow enough clearance to slide forward under the pinblock. I contacted a colleague in a neighbor PTG Chapter I knew who lived in the area who is a 3rd generation rebuilder, Thad Satchell, RPT and turned my client over to him, just like a primary care physician calls a speciaist as I am a regional piano technician who has limited shop time. Thad texted me a photo of a crack that had occured in the left bracket. He kept me posted of his progress from contacting Young Cthang to replacement delivery and his install and a happy customer which was my desired outcome. I suggested to Thad that he might want to put together an article on what he did for the Piano Technicians Journal as these brackets are continuing to fail years later. If you need to contact Thad direct, he is with the Hampton Roads PTG Chapter (home of the 2016 PTG National Convention in Norfolk) you can look him up in the PTG Directory of resources as well as phone number of Young Chang. First check the serial number to confirm this is the problem. My first post was at 4 am here. After some rest, it was time to offer you more information. I hope this can help you and others. in researching my clients records I kept of makes and serial numbers over the years I have now been able to identify potential pianos that may have similar problems arise, and when they fail it produces an instant shift in the pianos ability to play.


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    Kevin Magill
    Williamsburg VA
    757-220-2420
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    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2015 14:41

    I suspect it may be the grand action brackets are "growing".  There was a period of time when, I think it was Young Chang, that had a chemical reaction in the grand action brackets where they were actually growing and it messed up the let-off real bad.  If you regulated it you would have the same problem in about 6 months.  I don't know if the replacement brackets are still available or where you would get them but it seems that Samic would be able to provide them.

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    Clarence Zeches
    Piano Service Enterprise School of Technology
    Toccoa GA
    706-886-4035
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    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-07-2015 16:58
    The action brackets are not Samick. They would not have them. Young Chang exclusively.
    Paul McCloud


    Original Message


  • 22.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 17:48

    Thank you all for your words of wisdom. It sounds like a lot of you have experienced this with the same Young Chang made piano. 



    ------------------------------
    Leif Mathisen
    Piano Technician Steinway of Bellevue
    Redmond WA
    425-628-4356
    ------------------------------


    Original Message


  • 23.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 17:50

    The big question i have is which option would be suitable:

    1. Repair current action brackets by adding shims, or grinding off excess metal.

    2. Wait for a while until parts so up from Young Chang, at what kind of cost to the customer?

    The brackets are a strange kind of flimsy plastic feeling material, that is apparently a cheap alloy?

    Thanks.


    ------------------------------
    Leif Mathisen
    Piano Technician Steinway of Bellevue
    Redmond WA
    425-628-4356
    ------------------------------


    Original Message


  • 24.  RE: Weber 5' Grand: Action Problems! Warping?

    Posted 09-07-2015 17:52

    Never mind, I read a lot of your posts, and it sounds like these brackets will continue to warp later. Even after being repaired or refitted.



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    Leif Mathisen
    Piano Technician Steinway of Bellevue
    Redmond WA
    425-628-4356
    ------------------------------


    Original Message