Pianotech

Expand all | Collapse all

Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

  • 1.  Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2015 00:55

    I've been doing some plodding through the archives on the subject of in-floor heating.  I service a Yamaha G2 grand that sits on a floor finished in a dark ceramic tile, under which is an in-floor heat source.  The piano has been equipped with a full DC system with undercover and string cover, and the DC system is well maintained. The seasonal pitch swing remains excessive.

    I see suggestions ranging from mounting the piano on a six inch high platform with aluminum foil reflectors, to MDF sheets with aluminum foil underneath, to thick carpet, to sheeting with foam insulation underneath.  Some of these solutions seem to have less capacity for elegance than others.  The piano is in a lovely home, in a large open-concept living room/dining room area.  Whatever we do will be very visible.

    One idea that has occurred to me is some laminate flooring with maybe up to 1/4 inch of insulation underneath, except for directly under the weight-bearing points, where instead of the insulation there would be some kind of solid sheeting the same thickness as the insulation.  Might this work?  If so, what might a suitable insulation be?  I think we could make something like this look attractive.

    Some kind of barrier that inhibits the movement of heat up from the floor directly under the piano certainly seems to be in order.  What have you seen or used that has proved to be both effective and aesthetically pleasing?

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-721-9699
    ------------------------------



  • 2.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 07:14

    Place a radient barrier (reflective material) under the piano and cover that with the undercover.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 3.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 10:22

    A "Space Blanket" from a camping supply store! Lightweight and very inexpensive. Cuts with scissors.

    Remember the "Echo" satellite?

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926
    ------------------------------




  • 4.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 08:15
    How new is the home? Where is it in the country? Are the clients senior
    citizens, and need the house kept excessively warm? Do they run the
    system intermittently or continually?

    Your problem may be one of excessive air movement in and through the
    home (air changes), causing them to run the system at too high a temp. I
    have no stability problems with the pianos I serve with underfloor heat
    (DC undercover), but they are all in appropriately constructed
    buildings, regarding air changes. Addressing the overall heat settings,
    or the zoned heat settings, or adding a separate zone in the piano room,
    offer the possibility of addressing this in an elegant fashion, while
    saving them some heating bucks in the long term. The water supplied to
    the floor in that room should be no higher than 100 -110 f, even lower,
    it the system runs continually.

    Stability issues come from RH/temp swings, not from consistent RH/temps,
    even if the consistent temps are elevated. If there is a stability
    problem look for the source of the swings, which is often one of
    excessive air changes, meaning the home is excessively drafty. A simple
    rug with a foil underneath should seriously cut radiant heat underneath
    the piano. If this doesn't work check overall building conditions.
    Chaces are chances are, this is the chronic culprit.




  • 5.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 09:21
    A follow-up thought...

    It might help to understand the nature of the heat itself. Your idea
    regarding thickness of insulation, suggests you don't know understand
    how radiant heat does its thing relative to conductive heat. In radiant
    heat transfer, heat is is carried in waves, ie the sun radiating the
    earth. Objects do not have to be touching the heat source in order for
    the heat to be transferred. The wave can travel through a vacuum. In
    conductive transfer, heat is transferred by adjacent atom to atom
    effects. In conductive transfer, thickness of the insulation layer
    matters, because it makes it difficult for adjacent atoms to effect
    other adjacent atoms.

    Non-radiant heating systems, like the ones we are used to seeing in
    buildings, hot air heat, baseboard heat, heat by transferring heat by
    conduction, to air at very high temps, then distributing that air
    aggressively over the house. The comfort of the home is created by the
    temp of the air, which transfers heat, by conduction, to everything it
    touches. It requires huge amounts of air movement and convection. The
    air being heated also lowers the RH of the air agressively and then
    distributed it all over the building.

    Radiant systems require no air flow. Though some convection or air
    occurs, and some conduction to that air, it is not the primary or even a
    significant avenue of heat transfer. Radiant system heat objects,
    including people and pianos...they mostly do not heat air directly. The
    air is warmed by conduction, meaning it is warmed by objects touching
    the air. The air is heated at very low temps, relative to conductive
    heat systems. This means the air's RH, relative to Non-radiant systems,
    is effected less by the heat source.

    DC rods are, by the way, radiant heat sources. Their point is to heat
    the surfaces of the piano with as little air movement as possible.

    In the radiant system, if you block the transfer of radiant energy in
    (wave form) you stop the majority of the transfer. Thickness of the
    barrier is not necessarily effective, but material of the barrier is
    effective...tin foil will do it. Where a wood EMC stability issue may
    occur with radiant systems is when the temp of the piano's wood is
    elevated by the radiant floor, while dry air from the outside of the
    building (high air changes/leaky buildings) is continually introduced
    and convected in and around the piano. Stop or reduce the introduction
    of excessive dry outside air, and the EMC will remain reasonable, even
    though the temp of the piano itself is very slightly elevated.

    Running the floor at high temps not only heats the piano to a higher
    temp, it is run at high temps because too much air is coming in from the
    outside. So you get a double-bad whammy...a combination of more elevated
    temps for the piano wood combined with huge amounts of dry outside air
    contacting that warmer piano wood. If there is outside air continually
    entering into the space, the pianos EMC% will drop. The bottom line is,
    controlling the air changes, ie the drafty-ness, will control EMC%
    problems.




  • 6.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 10:09

    I would submit that with in-floor heating, only part of the heat is actually radiant.  The flooring tiles are heated, and they in turn heat the air directly touching them.  This air rises and is replaced with cool air, which then is also heated and rises, etc

    Pianos sitting on such floors are slowly cooked by a continual upward flow of slightly warmed air.  This warmed and therefore relatively dry air slowly but continually dries out the piano. It can cause a lot of problems, depending on the situation. 

    I have opened the lip of uprights to feel a cloud of warm, dry air poofing upwards out of the instrument.

    The situation is a bit different with grands, but the problems can be the same.
    ------------------------------
    Jurgen Goering
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 10:27
    Jurgen

    I always get the same blast of surprisingly warm air opening any closed
    DC grand, yet the DC creates a stable environment. The Humidifier
    corrects RH as per given temp.

    If the building RH as related to given temp is too aggressive it will
    overriding the DC's ability to cope. The fix is to reduce air changes,
    reduce floor temp, reduce room temp if it is high, install a foil sheet
    and rug under the piano, DC and undercover...in my experience.




  • 8.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 11:08
    one other obvious fix...Floydd didn't mention whether the lid kept at
    full prop? The DC needs the Lid closed. I try to get clients to close
    the entire lid, including the small front potion of lid (david hughes
    probably knows what that's called)...I do close the entire lid, and put
    my piano to bend under a cover after use. Most clients will not do that.
    But I have had some small success getting them to lower the main lid,
    keep the music desk open, full of music stacked all over the sides of
    the desk, but drape a light decorative cloth over the opened desk area.




  • 9.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-16-2015 09:45

    Getting folks to lower the lid? Yes that is a problem with so many piano owners. They think the piano looks more elegant with the lid fully propped open. We all know that piano teachers and many fine pianists pile tons of stuff on top of their piano music desk and most have a clip on light on the music desk. Lots of piano owners place their pianos in inhospitable locations in their homes. We all have horror stories about pianos in direct sunlight, against heaters or air conditioners or in damp basements or porches. The list goes on and on.

    I do tell my clients, with grands, that pianos like it cool but that doesn't work since many older clients keep their homes hot all year round and the thin young folks are always cold even in 70 degree heat.

    In order to get them to close their grands I use this analogy... If you have a Stradivarius violin worth many millions of dollars, would you leave it laying out on top of the case after you play it or would you put it in the case when not in use? The same goes for your grand piano. The value goes up when the lid goes down after use and the value goes down if the lid is left up. The value line sometimes works since many think someday their old piano will be worth more and a new piano. Would they leave a classic or antique car out in the rain, sun or snow. No, it would be a garage queen.  

    ------------------------------
    Robert Highfield
    Lancaster PA
    ------------------------------




  • 10.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 12:03
    This is correct, as was pointed out the last three times it was
    discussed. The heaters hanging from the ceiling of your local auto
    repair center are high temperature radiant heaters. Heated floors are
    convection heaters as just described. It may be called radiant heating,
    but it works by heating air. The rub is in getting humidity into the air.
    Ron N




  • 11.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2015 12:42

    In my perhaps-clouded thinking, radiant heat transfer will be interrupted by a barrier such as a reflective sheet.  I have used radiant heaters in both a shop and a home setting.  I construe the ceramic tile surface as such a barrier that is nevertheless warmed by the source beneath it, and in turn warms the air above it, setting up convection.  Thus my thoughts about an insulating layer that would interrupt the transfer of heat from the tiles to the air above the floor surface.

    So my current modelling of the situation pushes me to look for elegant floor-surface insulating solutions.  I continue to welcome examples of such solutions.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-721-9699
    ------------------------------




  • 12.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 13:09
    I think that's your best bet, or maybe a small fish pond under the piano
    for humidification...

    Hmmm. That was intended to be a dopy suggestion, but I'm not so sure it
    might not work. Insulate under the basin, or you'll end up with fish soup.
    Ron N




  • 13.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-15-2015 14:01

    There used to be/is a company in the Netherlands that made a special carpet for exactly this situation. I just tried their URL and it didn't work so i don't know if they are gone or not. I'll look a bit harder and let you know if I can find anything. The company was marketing under the name piano carpet. www.pianocarpet.com.

    I've seen them and they are quite nice. In fact we have one here at DC. I'll look and see if it would fit a G2. 

    Try this link http://www.hanna-pianos.co.uk/underfloor_heating_piano_protector

    They are certainly not cheap but I have heard anecdotal evidence that they do work. 
    ------------------------------
    Charles Rempel
    Sales & Marketing Director
    Dampp-Chaser Corp.
    HENDERSONVILLE NC
    828-692-8271
    ------------------------------




  • 14.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-15-2015 23:26

    Can you tell me anything about the sample you have, Charles, that might help me come up with something close to it using more locally available materials?  I emailed the UK for a quote for a 170 cm grand, but with shipping and all, I'm not keeping my hopes up.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-721-9699
    ------------------------------




  • 15.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Member
    Posted 09-15-2015 15:30

    The simple solution is to move the piano. Why is the piano located over a heated floor anyway is the bigger question. I have a G2 and it is in a great room on a concrete slab floor, full d/c, and it is extremely stable year round. My HVAC is geothermal and very consistent. Your situation sounds like the one I had when I lived in New England. My Wurlitzer console was on an outside wall getting cooked by baseboard hot water heater. It got moved the day after my piano tuner told me it would be toast if I left it there much longer.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Pawleys Island SC
    843-325-4357
    ------------------------------




  • 16.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-16-2015 09:31
    Found this link....it's not cheap...grand piano sizes by request, it says.

    http://www.sheargoldmusic.co.uk/upright-piano-carpet-underfloor-heating-protection/

    I found some links for carpet underlayment said to provide thermal insulation
    and a PDF on the insulation values for carpet.

    Google: Carpet Thermal Underlayment or Insulation to find some results or some such terms.

    Richard





  • 17.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2015 10:28

    Thanks, Richard.  I now have a request in for a quote from sheargoldmusic.  With shipping to Canada?  Should be interesting.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-721-9699
    ------------------------------




  • 18.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-16-2015 14:26

    Seems like an architect problem, not a piano problem. Because the architect did not know what they were doing, the piano needs tuning more often.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    608-518-2441
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------




  • 19.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-16-2015 15:23
    What's a qualified architect like yourself doing messing around with
    pianos? Keeping your income down for alimony reasons?

    But then I never liked the idea of in floor heating for at least a
    couple of reasons. Humidity control, and cooling. Air exchange is
    another. Keeping the piano in tune is the concern of just one person in
    town, if that.
    Ron N




  • 20.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-16-2015 16:34
    <But then I never liked the idea of in floor heating

    I believe we've received that message.

    There are many who disagree with you. That is, those who actually live in and experience these systems, that find them to be by far more comfortable than any systems they experienced previously. Significantly reduced drafts from lower levels of convention,?? humidity easily controlled in a whole house design, so sinuses (and wood) actually have a chance in winter (for my family a biggy), and some being able to live comfortably at lower indoor temps. As well, your information regarding air exchange is dated, as energy codes, mandate lower air change rates. With the mandates came technology which efficiently exchanges indoor air for outdoor while capturing a certain percentage of what would otherwise be lost heat.

    In the 80's, while the systems were new and unusual, many of your concerns were voiced. Many of the fears voiced were of course voiced by marketing departments of competing systems. However, empirically, in use, as people have lived with these systems they have gained a very decent share of the heat system market, on their own merits. These houses are comfortable, easy to heat, and if designed well, very efficient in terms of fuel usage.??

    They ain't going away. So it would behoove tuners to understand how to deal with heat related issues in the pianos which live in these houses. Actually, nothing out of the ordinary has to happen. With small differences, its the same story as with any of the trad heat systems, ie start with the RH of the indoor air. Same as any other heating system. If the RH is controlled you have a prayer, at some pretty minor fixes. If its not controlled, your client will be swimming up stream, and measures need to be taken. These measures, like any other challenged ambient situation, may or may not be sufficient to improve the situation.

    I know Floyd was not asking help in diagnosing the problem, but simply looking at elegant mitigation scenarios. My take on elegant solutions is first make sure the fix is appropriate to the problem.?? At no point in Floyd's query were RH levels discussed.?? Neither was the G2 part of the question. Is the rendering on this piano as chronically bad as, from my experience, and the experience of others, the G3? If a tuner can't, through no fault of their own, read the non speaking segments, the piano will be "unstable" even in a perfect environment. Just say'in an elegant solution may be to restring the damn thing and fix the front bearings.







  • 21.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-17-2015 01:08

    I spent a fair amount of money on an electronic hygrometer, only to find, once it had drifted beyond useful accuracy, that its calibration function (which was covered in the instructions) had been disabled by the manufacturer.   I need to buy another, but I haven't yet.

    I do recognize humidity trends based on piano behavior, however.  Here in Saskatchewan, we have very dry (indoor RH) winters, and reasonably humid summers.

    I tuned this piano in March, when heating was active.  I don't have numbers, but I know I had to raise the pitch.

    I did measure pitch deviation when I tuned it last week.  Below the bass/tenor break, the tuning was about 3 cents sharp.  Arriving at the plain wire strings a few notes above the break, pitch devation was in the range of 15 cents sharp.  A3 was 16 cents.  A4 was 15 cents.  The numbers went down slightly as I moved into the treble.  Once the floor begins to cook the piano, it will go flat by that much.

    This is what our humidity swings do to pianos here.  This is not an issue of instability due to rendering issues.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-721-9699
    ------------------------------




  • 22.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-17-2015 09:25
    <The numbers went down slightly as I moved into the treble.?? Once the floor begins to cook the piano, it will go flat by that much.


    When you say "drop by that much" do you mean cycle back to approx 0 cents or drop 15c flat of zero, ie 30 cent drop in the heating season?

    Without an attempt at logging the RH, in a problem scenario, or a scenario like this where you are trying to understand the interaction between the heating system and the piano, you really don't have any useful information. RH levels dictate how much EMC changes. Temp alone does not. RH calibration does not have to be perfect...close enough will tell you whether the numbers are in the single digits or not.

    I'm assuming the effect you are seeing is not a temperature differential effect all on its own, as the DC is designed to maintain a reasonable steady temp/RH, though maybe this assumption is incorrect, in this case...don't know without info.

    The discrepancy you are reading had probably only a 1 month heating system exposure and the rest, whatever they do in summer. What is the nature of the ambient conditions in the non-heating season? This being summer, are they cooling the floor, using AC, or do they, like my family, keep many windows open? And do they keep the piano open?

    If it were my problem, I would try to resolve it experimentally with cheap reversible solutions to start, to see how simply the problem could be resolved. Such as simply a rug to start. Then escalate as/if the situation demanded it.?? A simple rug and foil barrier is way way less efficient at conducting heat and distributing it than ceramic tile, which is a highly efficient conductor.

    Another elegant possibility, is to do the equivalent of shutting a vent in a forced hot air house. It is a relatively simple plumbing move, and has no visual impact whatsoever. That is, to shut down the loop under the piano. This would be an excellent option, as long as the system loops are a not single loops in a an entire room. My system has many loops in each room, so that would actually be an easy fix, in my system, if I had a problem...which I don't. If its a wood framed floor, with access underneath to get to the tubes (assuming hydronic) you could also pull the tubes away from the subfloor in an area around the piano. Your customers?? have tile, so they may have a heated slab. But some tile installations are on wood subfloors, so separating loops from subloor might still be an option. Other than that, on a slab, as a plumbing fix, limited loop shut down would be the only plumbing option.






  • 23.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Posted 09-17-2015 09:32
    No offense taken. As long as the exchange is respectfully civil,
    challenges allow us to think about things we might not have thought
    about before, and wonder about our own assumptions. I for one, have also
    learned from this exchange. I always do...I often end up with a
    different perspective from when I started participating in the
    discussion. So please accept my comments in the "we all have something
    to learn about...uhhh...everthing" vein.

    Is humbling to see just how much I don't know about everything...but
    still trying to learn at least something:-)




  • 24.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-17-2015 08:47

    Jim,

    You have noted that I have not asked for help in diagnosing the problem.  You're right -- I have indeed pushed directly toward mitigation.  But if my response to posts suggest that I am dismissive towards ideas that push in the direction of giving more careful attention to diagnosis, then I need to reconsider how I choose my words.

    Your distinction between radiant and convective heating has been particularly thought provoking.  I've turned this over in my mind quite a bit, and while I have come to the conclusion outlined in my earlier post, I hope the way I expressed my response left the door open to my modelling of the situation being challenged.

    Likewise with the question as to whether the root of my dilemma is the environment or the piano itself.  I tune three G3's regularly, and on two of them, the issue of poor rendering is alive and well.  I hope I get an opportunity to do with them exactly what you are suggesting.

    Thank you for your participation in this forum.  You demonstrate a commitment to engagement,and to thinking critically and creatively, and it sure looks to me like behind all of this lies a dedication to the pursuit of your craft.  I look forward your continued contributions.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd
    Regina SK
    306-721-9699
    ------------------------------




  • 25.  RE: Elegant solutions for grand piano over heated floor?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-18-2015 00:29

    I had a customer In the late 1970's with heat in the concrete floor of their home recital hall. The place had no insulation so in the winter the floor often was at 100F or more. The heat would conduct right up the legs into the piano.

    My solution was to get asbestos discs that were sold at the time to use for placing hot dishes on and glue three together with formica laminated top and bottom to use as caster cups. I did know enough to encapsulate the exposed edge with epoxy so as to avoid asbestos dust getting into the room.

    The piano stopped going so wildly flat in the winter.

    My father built the house I grew up in with hot water heating in the concrete slab. It was very comfortable. He also used Navy surplus asbestos pipe insulation to insulate the attic. There was a pile left over that my brothers and other friends used to play "king of the mountain on". So far no disease! And my oldest brother who helped put the insulation into the attic smoked for forty years!

    ------------------------------
    Edward McMorrow
    Edmonds WA
    425-299-3431
    ------------------------------