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Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

  • 1.  Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Member
    Posted 10-04-2015 23:30

    I should have cross-posted this assuming that's doable from my local forum, but here we go.

    Hello Everyone.

    I’ve run into an Everett console drop action piano that some of the keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed and pop back up when both are released. Any ideas what the issue is? I need to resolve it pretty quickly so any ideas would be appreciated as soon as possible.

    I’ve eased the keys and lubed all moving action parts I can get to without removing the action.

    Thanks in advance,



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    David Fisher
    Salem VA
    540-892-9685
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  • 2.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-04-2015 23:58

    David

    From what you're describing it sounds like the spoons are helping the wippens bring the keys come back up. I'm afraid this is not going to be easy. The problem might be tight wippen flanges. You can try to put some Protec on them if you have an oiler with a long spout. 

    The problem might also be worn out damper lever felt, where they hit the spoons. the spoons dig into the felt, and they keep the wippen from bouncing back up.

    In any case, it looks like you're going to have to remove the action to solve the problem.  Sorry.

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    Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
    Mililani, HI 96789
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-05-2015 02:13

    Sometimes the spoon reacts with the felt on the damper lever and gets rough and\or digs a hollow in the felt causing it to hang up. You will probably need to pull the action on that bad boy. You might get some relief with good ol Jiffy leads, however.

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    Ryan Sowers
    Olympia WA
    360-705-4160
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Posted 10-05-2015 07:12

    My take on this is that the keys are too front heavy. Without the weight of the damper and hammer return springs, the keys fall.

    Backlead is the solution.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 5.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-05-2015 10:27

    Hello Mr. Fisher.

    Is this a Wood Brooks 45 degree action?  I'm assuming it's not.  If not, are all keys affected or just the ones that are played the most?  Tight bridle straps?  Has the piano been played extensively?

    Pick a key in the middle of the action that is most affected.  Disconnect the key from the lifter/sticker, or remove the key all together.  Without pressing any pedals, hold the hammer off the hammer rest rail and the damper off the string with one hand.  Now work the whippen gently and feel for the spoon digging in the damper lifter felt.  This is very sensitive work but it could or could not determine the need to pull the action.  In the process of all this, take note of how freely the whippen moves to determine if it's the whippen flange.

    If the lifter felts have divots, you'll have damper lift that's quite late or not at all.  If so, try bending one spoon left or right to get it relocated somewhere else on the lifter felt.  It only takes a tiny bit to accomplish this.  If it's determined that the lifter felts are bad, this little bend in the spoon is not a stable adjustment and so all the lifter felts will need to be replaced.

    With nothing connected to the key it should fall freely to the fully depressed position.  Determine how much weight it takes to cause it to either balance or barely pivot the other way.  The weight of the whippen should be enough to keep it resting on the back rail felt when connected, with pedals depressed.  Jiffy weights are handy but can be too much weight in some cases.  Some screws, washers and PVC-E glue (keeps them from rattling) key by key.

    Ya gotta question what changed over the years  .......  or was it always this way from day one?


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    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Posted 10-05-2015 11:23
    Well, it's not spoons digging in to the damper lever felt. With the
    pedal down, the spoons don't even contact the felt.

    Keys are front heavy typically, and only some don't come up.
    Contributory, but likely not the root cause.

    "Some" of the keys stick. Which keys? What you describe is something
    I've seen a lot of times in small pianos. The slow keys tend to be the
    ones with the high angle dog legs. The key bushings on the outside of
    the dog leg bear all the weight, and wear out. They dish, so the key pin
    doesn't slide, but catches and won't let the key return. Eventually, it
    gets bad enough that the key won't return even with the help of the
    damper spring. Replace the outside key bushing on the slow keys, and it
    will work. The bushing on the inside of the dog leg is untouched, and
    has no wear. It's fine.

    C-8 is a special case. It's very front heavy, and commonly has this
    problem in this sort of piano. The fix there is to carve some weight out
    of the front half of the underside treble corner, as was done on a lot
    of old uprights.

    Without being there, that's my best guess.
    Ron N


    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-06-2015 10:17

    If the damper lifter felts are so dug out that they catch the spoon, as the pedal is depressed they pull on the spoon a little.  With the hammer pushed forward there's nothing to keep the whippen at rest except gravity and the weight of the key via the sticker.  With the little forward key weight that's inherent on these, it doesn't take much to cause the whippen to move.

    If the spoons are installed so that the edge of the spoon digs into the lifter felts each time the key is activated, eventually it finds it's way down to the wood under the felt.  I've seen this on one piano I service.  A field repair that's worked so far is to remove the felt, rotate it and glue it back on so that there's unused felt in contact with the spoon.  I don't usually carry damper lifter felts hence the repair.

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    Larry Fisher
    Owner, Chief Grunt, Head Hosehead
    Vancouver WA
    360-256-2999
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-06-2015 11:00
    I usually find that the spoons have something caked on them that was in the felt and has leached out. It is water soluble, so use a wet cloth or something to clean off that gunk before you call it a complete repair. What I do is wedge the lift rail so the dampers are held out of the way, and take a strip of slightly wet cloth and "shoeshine" the spoons. Simply replacing the felt will not solve the issue. Use some ProLube to coat the spoons when you're done.
    Paul McCloud
    San Diego


    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Posted 10-07-2015 13:13
    However he's playing the piano with both Sus and Soft peds on. The Sus Ped will automatically take damper tail felts away from the the spoons thus defeating this problem. Ergo, it Must be something else....  Michael  UK 



    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Posted 10-07-2015 14:09

    I'm going to double-down on front-heavy keys.

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    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 11.  RE: Keys stay depressed only when both the soft and sustain pedal are depressed

    Posted 10-07-2015 14:28
    If that was the case, just depressing the soft and damper pedals would
    make the keys drop. We still don't have any information on which keys
    stick. I'm still betting on extreme doglegs at the section break(s), and
    the key bushings. That's in the middle where all the traffic is too, so
    the wear is worst. I've just seen it way too many times. And yes, the
    keys are also too front heavy when this happens, but if the bushing is
    good it will still work.

    Again, where are the sticking keys in relation to key fan angles?

    Ron N


    Original Message