Pianotech

I know how to adjust damper timing. In most grands it's not really a big deal. But in uprights, well, I've just never been able to get the tools to work. I have both kinds of spoon benders for that job and I have NEVER, I mean EVER, been able to get it to connect with the spoon in such a way as to actually be able to bend that wire. Many times neither tool will even slip underneath and through the action to get that far back in the first place. Other times the tool will not tilt far enough to grab the wire. From either side. I've attended Don Mannino's upright regulation class several times just to get a better handle on this. He makes it look so easy. And then when I try it on a customers piano it's utter fail. I've pulled the action out to mark the tool for where it needs to be inserted, and rehearse, and then when I put the action back in the procedure simply no longer works. 

Today's question: Is it possible to regulate upright damper timing on the bench? And if so, how? 

Frustrated - GS

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Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
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Geoff. I actually tach a class on this. I am in a rehearsal right now. I'll send it tonight when I get home

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Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Yaaay! Can't wait to see it. 

Thanks --

-- GS

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-13-2015 01:37
From: Willem Blees
Subject: Damper timing

Geoff. I actually tach a class on this. I am in a rehearsal right now. I'll send it tonight when I get home

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Grand damper timing is a critical aspect of touch. The same goes for verticals. Keep practicing, you'll get it. I can run thru a vertical damper timing in about 20 minutes, once the pedal lift timing is set. But if you want to do it on the bench: Adjust damper lift for an even pedal lift. Measure from the edge of the damper heads to the top edge of the hammer rest rail. With the action out of the piano, shim the damper lift rod to reproduce the above measurements. Lift the wippen slowly and adjust the spoon to engage the damper lever when the hammer reaches half blow. I used to do it that way until I realized that in-piano adjustments are much easier and faster because the out-of-piano method many times required a re-do because of various happenstances.

If you need more room to navigate with the between-the-key tool, remove the key. If the damper is lifting too soon, insert the tool to block the damper lever and lift the wippen (or depress the key) to bend the spoon. I find that blocking the lever and depressing the key until the hammer reaches Let-Off, produces a lift at half blow; most of the time.

Make sure you start by tightening the flange screws.

A tool which is handy for pedal lift timing is a split screw driver. That's the driver used for Steinway key upstop rail fasteners. I made mine from the screw driver blade in the combination handle tool assortment. A Dremel tool and a cutoff wheel made the notch. At least now that blade has a useful purpose. I don't have a photo but imagine a two-pronged end fashioned from a slot bit.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page

Hi Geoff,

Regulating dampers in the upright (as opposed to on the bench) is worth mastering, as frustrating as it is.  A few things that have helped me on my way:

 - grinding the head of the tool with the double bend (Schaff No. 85, for instance) so that it is narrower and will fit more easily through tight spaces

- marking the position on the stem of the tool (while trial regulating on the bench) of the front of the wippen, using a magic marker, for reference when the action is back in the piano

- understanding that the overstrung bass strings may well block access for the tool mentioned above, making necessary the use of something like Schaff tool No. 3114 in the lower part of the piano.  Tool No. 85 works best mid-tenor to treble.

- Learning to use tool No. 3114 works best in sections where there is lots of sideways bend on the spoon.  Once you get the hang of it, it becomes possible to use on the others as well.

- Regulating with the keys removed from the piano.  I learned this in Atlanta from Mike Carraher and Keith Bowman.

- Maybe most importantly, learning to do it in my shop, not in a customer's home.  This is not a skill you want to cultivate under pressure of time.  There are a number of skills that I've needed to fail at for a while before succeeding.  Like hearing the beating of fourths when they move below two beats per second. 

I have experimented with regulating upright dampers outside of the piano, and have never been able to achieve the precision that is possible with regulating with the action installed in the piano.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-721-9699
------------------------------

Floyd wrote: 

There are a number of skills that I've needed to fail at for a while before succeeding. 

Well said, Floyd!

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-13-2015 12:22
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: Damper timing

Hi Geoff,

Regulating dampers in the upright (as opposed to on the bench) is worth mastering, as frustrating as it is.  A few things that have helped me on my way:

 - grinding the head of the tool with the double bend (Schaff No. 85, for instance) so that it is narrower and will fit more easily through tight spaces

- marking the position on the stem of the tool (while trial regulating on the bench) of the front of the wippen, using a magic marker, for reference when the action is back in the piano

- understanding that the overstrung bass strings may well block access for the tool mentioned above, making necessary the use of something like Schaff tool No. 3114 in the lower part of the piano.  Tool No. 85 works best mid-tenor to treble.

- Learning to use tool No. 3114 works best in sections where there is lots of sideways bend on the spoon.  Once you get the hang of it, it becomes possible to use on the others as well.

- Regulating with the keys removed from the piano.  I learned this in Atlanta from Mike Carraher and Keith Bowman.

- Maybe most importantly, learning to do it in my shop, not in a customer's home.  This is not a skill you want to cultivate under pressure of time.  There are a number of skills that I've needed to fail at for a while before succeeding.  Like hearing the beating of fourths when they move below two beats per second. 

I have experimented with regulating upright dampers outside of the piano, and have never been able to achieve the precision that is possible with regulating with the action installed in the piano.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-721-9699
------------------------------

There's been some very good advice. I do bench regulation of spoons exactly as Jon Page does, though I prefer to do it in the piano (I do it on the bench when it is WAY off, to rough it in quickly).

I'll add that I always adjust spoons with the keys out, if it is an action without stickers. This means that moving from one wippen to the next is a matter of disengage (rotate), move the tool in less than 1/4", move to the next, move the tool back toward you less than 1/4". Very easy to stay at the right distance. It also means that you have that extra distance for the tool to move down. Usually it is best to hold the tool stationary at a point where it is bearing solidly on the spoon, and do the actual bending by moving the wippen with you other hand.

Also, note which way the spoons are bent: look at the hammer butt relative to the damper lever. Which way is the damper offset from the butt? Angle your tool to match that angle. Otherwise you will not get purchase on the spoon with the slot.

I'll also mention that Jim Busby has made some some fantastic videos. Go to www.pianotechniciantutorials.com. He covers spoons under Vertical Piano Regulation.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-13-2015 12:22
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: Damper timing

Hi Geoff,

Regulating dampers in the upright (as opposed to on the bench) is worth mastering, as frustrating as it is.  A few things that have helped me on my way:

 - grinding the head of the tool with the double bend (Schaff No. 85, for instance) so that it is narrower and will fit more easily through tight spaces

- marking the position on the stem of the tool (while trial regulating on the bench) of the front of the wippen, using a magic marker, for reference when the action is back in the piano

- understanding that the overstrung bass strings may well block access for the tool mentioned above, making necessary the use of something like Schaff tool No. 3114 in the lower part of the piano.  Tool No. 85 works best mid-tenor to treble.

- Learning to use tool No. 3114 works best in sections where there is lots of sideways bend on the spoon.  Once you get the hang of it, it becomes possible to use on the others as well.

- Regulating with the keys removed from the piano.  I learned this in Atlanta from Mike Carraher and Keith Bowman.

- Maybe most importantly, learning to do it in my shop, not in a customer's home.  This is not a skill you want to cultivate under pressure of time.  There are a number of skills that I've needed to fail at for a while before succeeding.  Like hearing the beating of fourths when they move below two beats per second. 

I have experimented with regulating upright dampers outside of the piano, and have never been able to achieve the precision that is possible with regulating with the action installed in the piano.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-721-9699
------------------------------

Never thought of doing it in the piano with the keys removed. But why not? What a concept?

Thanks --

-- GS

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-13-2015 20:08
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Damper timing

There's been some very good advice. I do bench regulation of spoons exactly as Jon Page does, though I prefer to do it in the piano (I do it on the bench when it is WAY off, to rough it in quickly).

I'll add that I always adjust spoons with the keys out, if it is an action without stickers. This means that moving from one wippen to the next is a matter of disengage (rotate), move the tool in less than 1/4", move to the next, move the tool back toward you less than 1/4". Very easy to stay at the right distance. It also means that you have that extra distance for the tool to move down. Usually it is best to hold the tool stationary at a point where it is bearing solidly on the spoon, and do the actual bending by moving the wippen with you other hand.

Also, note which way the spoons are bent: look at the hammer butt relative to the damper lever. Which way is the damper offset from the butt? Angle your tool to match that angle. Otherwise you will not get purchase on the spoon with the slot.

I'll also mention that Jim Busby has made some some fantastic videos. Go to www.pianotechniciantutorials.com. He covers spoons under Vertical Piano Regulation.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

It does take practice, but doing the timing in the piano works best.

I insert the tool between the whippens and beyond the damper levers even with the bottom of the action rail, raise slightly, and then draw back until it whacks into the action rail. Then very slowly move it out and up until I feel it engage the spoon. Once I find that place, I simply use a finger (an index finger!) on the tool to keep the correct relationship of tool and parts in hand. Practice, practice, practice...but every time you do the job you get 88 chances to learn....errrrrr..65 to 70...uh....71? Oh, you get the idea..

I also use that technique of blocking the damper lever and pushing down the key to bring spoons in (slower lift) as it can be easier than finding the spoon sometimes. 

Short console actions? Yes, removing the keys works pretty darn well. Much better access to the action and the spoons. As you lift the whippen, the hammer half-blow tells you where the keydip would be, and adjust the spoon by the hammer distance to string. Easy. Mostly.

Good question. Good answers! Thanks to all.

------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
Pacific Northwest VP
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-14-2015 00:21
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing

Never thought of doing it in the piano with the keys removed. But why not? What a concept?

Thanks --

-- GS

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 10-13-2015 20:08
From: Fred Sturm
Subject: Damper timing

There's been some very good advice. I do bench regulation of spoons exactly as Jon Page does, though I prefer to do it in the piano (I do it on the bench when it is WAY off, to rough it in quickly).

I'll add that I always adjust spoons with the keys out, if it is an action without stickers. This means that moving from one wippen to the next is a matter of disengage (rotate), move the tool in less than 1/4", move to the next, move the tool back toward you less than 1/4". Very easy to stay at the right distance. It also means that you have that extra distance for the tool to move down. Usually it is best to hold the tool stationary at a point where it is bearing solidly on the spoon, and do the actual bending by moving the wippen with you other hand.

Also, note which way the spoons are bent: look at the hammer butt relative to the damper lever. Which way is the damper offset from the butt? Angle your tool to match that angle. Otherwise you will not get purchase on the spoon with the slot.

I'll also mention that Jim Busby has made some some fantastic videos. Go to www.pianotechniciantutorials.com. He covers spoons under Vertical Piano Regulation.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

The keys out technique I got from the Sauter factory. A big DUH!!! Of course, why not? The hammer rail is blocked to half blow, and the hammer and damper should start to move simultaneously. The extra down space is the first thing that is helpful, but the ability to move from one key to the next is an enormous bonus (assuming no stickers): again, disengage, in toward the strings 1/4", over 1/2" (i.e., a wippen's width) and back toward you 1/4", engage. Very fast and efficient once you get the feel.

I always do it keys out unless there are stickers. Removing and replacing the keys is faster than the extra time and aggravation of pulling the tool all the way out and then inserting it again and finding the new spoon. If it's a minor job (all I am doing is spoons), I'll just pull a section of keys at a time, lay them on the neighboring section while I regulate.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-14-2015 11:03
From: Jeffrey Hickey
Subject: Damper timing

It does take practice, but doing the timing in the piano works best.

I insert the tool between the whippens and beyond the damper levers even with the bottom of the action rail, raise slightly, and then draw back until it whacks into the action rail. Then very slowly move it out and up until I feel it engage the spoon. Once I find that place, I simply use a finger (an index finger!) on the tool to keep the correct relationship of tool and parts in hand. Practice, practice, practice...but every time you do the job you get 88 chances to learn....errrrrr..65 to 70...uh....71? Oh, you get the idea..

I also use that technique of blocking the damper lever and pushing down the key to bring spoons in (slower lift) as it can be easier than finding the spoon sometimes. 

Short console actions? Yes, removing the keys works pretty darn well. Much better access to the action and the spoons. As you lift the whippen, the hammer half-blow tells you where the keydip would be, and adjust the spoon by the hammer distance to string. Easy. Mostly.

Good question. Good answers! Thanks to all.

------------------------------
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com
Pacific Northwest VP
------------------------------



Original Message:
Sent: 10-14-2015 00:21
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Damper timing

Never thought of doing it in the piano with the keys removed. But why not? What a concept?

Thanks --

-- GS

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

A method for uprights I found in a very old journal, even before it was
PTG, was to first make sure the dampers are lifting evenly with the
pedal. Insert a wood wedge under the damper lift rod from the side so
that the rod is firmly engaged to the dampers without actually lifting
them off the strings. They might slightly "leak". You can check for
evenness of pressure at this time and refine that. Next put another
wedge under the hammer rail so the hammers are about half way to the
strings. Tap a few keys to see if any of the hammers and dampers wink
at the same time. If there are you can mark these as your trials. If
you want a heavier touch move the hammers back slightly by moving the
hammer rail wedge out.

Remove the action to the bench with the spoon side toward you without
changing the wedges' positions. Gently tap up on the wippen and bend
the spoons so the hammer and the damper wink at the same time, the way
your trials do. When you're satisfied they are all consistent remove
the wedges and return the action.

------Original Message------

There's been some very good advice. I do bench regulation of spoons exactly as Jon Page does, though I prefer to do it in the piano (I do it on the bench when it is WAY off, to rough it in quickly).

I'll add that I always adjust spoons with the keys out, if it is an action without stickers. This means that moving from one wippen to the next is a matter of disengage (rotate), move the tool in less than 1/4", move to the next, move the tool back toward you less than 1/4". Very easy to stay at the right distance. It also means that you have that extra distance for the tool to move down. Usually it is best to hold the tool stationary at a point where it is bearing solidly on the spoon, and do the actual bending by moving the wippen with you other hand.

Also, note which way the spoons are bent: look at the hammer butt relative to the damper lever. Which way is the damper offset from the butt? Angle your tool to match that angle. Otherwise you will not get purchase on the spoon with the slot.

I'll also mention that Jim Busby has made some some fantastic videos. Go to www.pianotechniciantutorials.com. He covers spoons under Vertical Piano Regulation.

------------------------------
Fred Sturm
University of New Mexico
fssturm@unm.edu
http://fredsturm.net
http://www.artoftuning.com
"We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 10-13-2015 12:22
From: Floyd Gadd
Subject: Damper timing

Hi Geoff,

Regulating dampers in the upright (as opposed to on the bench) is worth mastering, as frustrating as it is.  A few things that have helped me on my way:

 - grinding the head of the tool with the double bend (Schaff No. 85, for instance) so that it is narrower and will fit more easily through tight spaces

- marking the position on the stem of the tool (while trial regulating on the bench) of the front of the wippen, using a magic marker, for reference when the action is back in the piano

- understanding that the overstrung bass strings may well block access for the tool mentioned above, making necessary the use of something like Schaff tool No. 3114 in the lower part of the piano.  Tool No. 85 works best mid-tenor to treble.

- Learning to use tool No. 3114 works best in sections where there is lots of sideways bend on the spoon.  Once you get the hang of it, it becomes possible to use on the others as well.

- Regulating with the keys removed from the piano.  I learned this in Atlanta from Mike Carraher and Keith Bowman.

- Maybe most importantly, learning to do it in my shop, not in a customer's home.  This is not a skill you want to cultivate under pressure of time.  There are a number of skills that I've needed to fail at for a while before succeeding.  Like hearing the beating of fourths when they move below two beats per second. 

I have experimented with regulating upright dampers outside of the piano, and have never been able to achieve the precision that is possible with regulating with the action installed in the piano.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-721-9699
------------------------------