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Stripped case screw holes

  • 1.  Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2015 11:37

    My other question about new pianos is the importance of case screw holes. This piano has many stripped case screw holes (fall board, music rack, top lid hinge, etc.). Are these problematic?

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianoservice.com
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2015 12:39

    Sounds to me that this manufacturer doesn't pay attention to details. But that's not what this is about.

     

    How you fix the hole depends on the purpose of the screw. For "active" screws, that are in constant, like a music rack, then it might be best to plug and drill. For "inactive" screws, like on the top lid, you can put a toothpick or piece of felt in the hole and add some super glue.

     

    This is manufacturer defect, and they, or the dealer, need to pay you for this work. One or two is not a problem, but if there are many, the time adds up.






  • 3.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2015 12:42

    I use shoe pegs clipped lengthwise to snug up small loose screws. All usually count.




  • 4.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-05-2015 17:02

    Plugging is the best cure for striped screws but the next best thing is leather/suede strips glued in. Veneer, toothpicks or matches will be cut into little segments when the screw is installed. Leather will compress and form new threads somewhat as it forces the screw into the remaining wood.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 5.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-05-2015 19:37

    To me it sounds like someone does not know how to properly insert a wood screw!

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    608-518-2441
    928-899-7292



  • 6.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-05-2015 20:04
    I presume you mean the manufacturer. That's not as uncommon as it ought
    to be. Manufacturer, or individual.

    For the repair, unless the hole is really chewed up and cratered,
    leather is a very good fix. Glued in (always glue) with regular old
    Titebond, I've never known it to fail. Failures come from toothpicks,
    shoe pegs, and even copper wire has been suggested, put in dry. This
    just does more damage in the long run and makes more work for the
    inevitable next guy to repair. Even gluing in toothpicks or shoe pegs
    isn't as good as leather, but will do in a pinch for something like a
    piano hinge screw that isn't stressed and doesn't need to be removed
    periodically like cheek block, lyre, or key slip screws. GLUED in. Paper
    towel and CA has been suggested as a good fix as well, though I can't
    vouch for that personally. If the hole is trashed beyond the easy fix,
    plugging is the only real option, or through bolts and T-nuts for lyre
    mounting.
    Ron N




  • 7.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2015 01:04

    Thanks for the ideas, everyone. It's not so much the technique of repairing screw holes that I was after, but about whether it is important to have those little case screws tight. It sounds like the answer is yes, they should all be repaired.

    ------------------------------
    Peter Stevenson RPT
    P.S. Piano Service
    Prince George BC
    250-562-5358
    ps@pspianoservice.com



  • 8.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-06-2015 11:43
    Yes, they really should all be repaired. Otherwise, the piano hinge will
    work for years, with the occasional screw dropping out and disappearing,
    until one day the remainder all pull loose at once and the screws to put
    it back on are mostly gone.
    Ron N




  • 9.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2015 09:45
    Ron,

    I am going to have to try your leather and Titebond fix for damaged screw holes. Tandy Leather is ten miles away.

    Help me with some details. Hide leather or buckskin? Fill the hole with the leather or just line the hole?

    Thanks,

    Doug Garman, RPT
    Doug Garman Piano Service
    Arlington, TX
    817-578-4796




  • 10.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-06-2015 11:39
    > I am going to have to try your leather and Titebond fix for damaged
    > screw holes.

    It's not mine, I got it from someone else and happily adopted it because
    it works so well.


    > Tandy Leather is ten miles away.

    I suggest not walking then.


    > Help me with some details. Hide leather or buckskin?

    Either seems to work. Buckskin is more accommodating to the screw, but a
    stiffer leather is easier to get into the hole. Buckskin tends to resist
    going in and fights back. One of life's little trade-offs.


    > Fill the hole
    > with the leather or just line the hole?

    Just cut a sliver that fits in the hole, get glue in the hole, and on
    the leather if you like (I do), and go. For small screws, it nearly
    fills the hole. For larger screws, two or three smaller slivers spaced
    around. It's not anything remotely critical. You're just giving the
    screw threads something to bite into that won't immediately reduce to
    sawdust. The absolutely critical part of any screw hole repair like this
    is glue. I've re-repaired literally hundreds of stripped screws where
    someone just crammed something in the dry hole and drove the screw in.

    Oh, and a drop of your center pin lubricant on the screw before
    inserting it.

    This is great for case work, where the screw is in a large piece of
    wood. Actions and player stacks require different approaches depending
    on where it is and what is there.
    Ron N




  • 11.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2015 12:34

    I use leather almost the diameter of the hole and twice the depth. Put glue in hole, double leather, press to bottom with mute handle ( the pointy bit). Has never failed me either.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    608-518-2441
    928-899-7292



  • 12.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-06-2015 15:05

    Before doing the repair, test the hinge.

    A very stiff hinge on a music desk will pull out short screws that were properly installed.

    If that is the case, drive out the hinge pin and sand it lightly to ease the hinge.

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    704-536-7926



  • 13.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2015 15:17
    Thanks, Larry. Good explanation.

    Doug Garman, RPT
    Doug Garman Piano Service
    Arlington, TX
    817-578-4796




  • 14.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-06-2015 19:49

    Hi, Larry

    Your "double leather" is totally different than my way of doing it, which proves how accommodating the process really is, given leather and white or yellow glue.

    I cut a strip of buckskin, and point the end. The width of the strip depends on how loose the screw is. I try the dry leather in the hole -- sometimes a pair of sharp tweezers helps -- and see how much sticks out. I take the strip out and clip this extra off, so that the strip just fills the hole. At that point, I have a variety of ways of wetting the leather, depending on the size of the hole. The process can be scaled up or down, depending on the size of the screw and what it has to do. It works, from big hunks of thick heavy shoe leather for lyre screws all the way down to tiny slips of buckskin leather 1/8" wide and 3/8" long, for the long hinge screws.

    I use white glue, though any carpenter's glue (yellow glue) or Titebond will work. The thing is to get the leather wet so it is stretchy and can conform to the screw threads. The glue also mends the splintering wood so it won't keep turning to sawdust.

    For the long-hinge screws, I take out the screws a few at a time, insert dry very thin short pointed strips of leather, and then put a very small bottle of Elmer's against the holes and squeeze, flooding them. Then I install the screws, and the extra white glue oozes out around them. I wipe this off.

    For larger screws, I guess how wide a strip of leather I need, clip it to length after trying it in the hole, then I wet it well with the white glue, insert if, and put back in the screw. If the screw is almost firm enough in the hole but still can overturn with a little effort, I usually leave it, because once the white glue sets it will be all right. If I feel the hole is still too large, I take the screw out and add another strip on the other side of the hole.

    I've had excellent results and near-perfect durability for this repair.

    I say some things to customers. I explain that for toothpicks, shoepegs, and so on, the wood grain goes in the wrong direction, so the screw threads will chew them to sawdust. Then I talk to them about how stretchy leather is when wet, but how rock-hard it is when it dries. I describe how people made shields in the MIddle Ages by makes a wooden frame and stretching wet leather around it, which dried rock hard. I then talk to them about how the leather gets squeezed into the screw thread and then dries hard, rebuilding a perfectly fitting thread for the screw. I end up by telling them how white glue is still flexible when dry, and how it never, ever, seizes a metal part, so that the screws can be removed and screwed back in however many times one needs to.

    Dandy repair. It's saved me a lot of grief over the years.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon



  • 15.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-06-2015 22:45

    Good Susan. I also tell them how to properly insert a screw.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    608-518-2441
    928-899-7292



  • 16.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2015 03:49

    Ain't buying it. My shoe pegs anyways do not act at all like toothpicks, Thats silly. Glue is risky. At least it means I want a rag and maybe a dropcloth, Very time consuming for what? The question was about case screws. To me that means little #4s mostly that are holding on things that should not see the light of day until refinishing. Shoe pegs clipped the long way work great alone on screws that are not falling out but are just somewhat loose. Bought the Reblitz book when it first came out in the mid 70s and read about the leather screw repair there first and thought oh great.Tried it with buckskin.not happy Went to shoe repair shop and got shoe leather scraps to try. No better.Gave up on that around 78 and decided that leather is mickey mouse and if a shoe peg won't do it needs a proper plug and redrill. Might keep an open mind and try leather again but I doubt it. Been working the same small county and pianos for nearly 40 years and know it saves lots of time for screws the question was asked about and lasts long term .Other screws need wood plugs to come and go dependably not leather! 




  • 17.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-07-2015 12:30

    Paul, it's a wonder to me how anyone could keep leather wet with white glue from working, but to each his own.

    Glue, and keeping it off of things: a small terrycloth hand towel, stained by much use and many trips through the laundry, lives in my kit for dusting and general cleaning. If in doubt about dropping glue on the grand damper heads doing the long hinge repair, one spreads the towel over them and moves it along as one progresses down the stack. If one uses the right amount of glue it doesn't get all over everything. A small plastic bottle of Elmer's lives in a ziploc bag in the kit. They've changed the formula, for no reason I can imagine, and I don't like the new kind as well as the old kind, but it still works. If I've dampened the hand towel to wipe down a case, it can go under the retractable shoulder strap on my kit, so it isn't inside wetting other things. When the towel gets too dirty to use, it is dropped on the car floor to be gathered and put in the wash. I always have one or two clean ones inside the kit.

    Nothing says we all have to do everything the same way, of course.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon



  • 18.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2015 15:20

    Susan: thanks for reply. Sure I could make it work but why? I'd not want to have to remove all those little glued in pieces when the lids' eventually refinished anyways.. Leave them permanently? Does your technique work well for hammer flange screws and action -key frame hold down too? Damper stop rails? Soundboard buttons?.Surely you can't hold up a lyre that way can you? I'd be so impressed. I am way too impatient, messy with glue, and tend to over torque. To each his own. I also carry damp rags but unless it's the last call of the day I don't like glue on them unnecessarily. I think I'm in the wrong league here. I've never seen a Bluttner  and oddly think  the treble on a Wurlitzer spinet sounds pretty good . What do I know. Kind of sorry i said anything. Already used up most of my 2016 word quota on the last 2 posts.




  • 19.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2015 16:12

    Unless there are pictures it didn't really happen. This is from a lyre today plus the hammer shank that just fell out.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    608-518-2441
    928-899-7292



  • 20.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-07-2015 16:23
    That looks familiar. Will leather fix stripped lyre mount screws? Yes,
    if you're the first one there and the hole hasn't already been trashed
    by someone just cramming a chunk of wood in dry and putting the screw
    back in. That is if they actually got the wood crammed into the key bed
    instead of just the lyre plate. The cram and screw people tend not to
    bother to disassemble first. Any of these repairs requires glue,
    preferably something that dries hard.
    Ron N




  • 21.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-07-2015 16:30

    Lyre screws -- if the problem isn't severe, just a little bit of overturning which no one has attempted to mend, I'll use leather and glue. For anything worse, I'll use a plug-cutter and drill the hole region out enough to plug beyond the reach of the screws.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon



  • 22.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-07-2015 16:37
    So does everyone else who cares. That, or drill through and counter bore
    for T-nuts.
    Ron N




  • 23.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-07-2015 16:51

    No offense intended, Paul.

    Yes, I've used white glue and buckskin to fix overturning hammer flange screws -- especially good for the Steinway tubular rails, much less fuss than the alternatives, with good results -- , and it's great for action bracket screws which are loose. I don't remember a damper up-stop rail screw which needed it. I have used it to get rid of buzzes from soundboard buttons. I've used it for lots of crummy quality pedal trapwork which other people have screwed up (pardon the pun). If a lyre were badly torn out, I would plug and redrill, but I would use leather and glue - lots of leather - in an emergency when the lyre needed to work that day and I wouldn't have time to get plugs, etc.

    On the contrary side, there is no such thing as a temporary repair.

    I see no reason why little slips of leather and white glue couldn't stay in the long hinge area when a piano was being refinished. If the holes were bad and the long hinge was repaired by inserting dry wood, all the holes would still need to be mended during refinishing anyway. If the existing leather and glue were unacceptable, the holes could be drilled out carefully, so they were uniform and spaced properly and a little bit larger than they originally were, and then more leather and glue could be put in, the same amount in each hole.

    I don't like glue on rags, either, and I don't usually have a big mess of glue to clean up, but if I do, I just use the crummiest towel I have with me, and then toss it.

    Regards,

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon



  • 24.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2015 22:42

    Susan:Thanks. I use plugs made of pinblock material for light duty because they glue in and snap off easy at the surface to keep going. I also carry some solid wood plugs but they take longer to put in. I can put in a pinblock material plug in the same or less time than a leather shim so if glue is involved anyways I figure a wood plug is a potential upgrade from the original so why spend all that effort with leather to do something merely adequate? I carry a vac so a little sawdust is not a problem which is the only advantage i can see for leather. A good exeception might be your example of a long hinge but for that  have  #4s in longer sizes and am usually careful  not to over do it and telegraph a ridge up to to the surface.Glue and leather stick on the bit once the proper plug and redrill is done.Shoe pegs just fall out. Hard to believe that leather can work for decades on Steinway rails. Mine lasted a couple of years(actually months) at best. Is this on a piano that is played. Decades old leather shims holding up lyres?Way more skill than me. Sorry about the hissy tone. Had to go to the Dentist with a lost filling today.




  • 25.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2015 16:16

     Concur with the collective wisdom. Have used leather as well.

     Wondering if anyone had/has anyone tried Ultrasuade  a.k.a. Escane for a similar repair?   

    ------------------------------
    Gerry
    Gerald P. Cousins, RPT ~ Director of Piano Service and Resources
    West Chester University of PA
    gcousins@wcupa.edu



  • 26.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-07-2015 16:29
    No. Ecsaine doesn't have the "body", being packed microfibers. I've
    tried to drive a screw through Ecsaine, and it's like felt. It snags. It
    might work in spite of that. I haven't tried it, but I won't either as
    long as leather works so well. No need.

    Ron N




  • 27.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-07-2015 16:35

    I have no problem with people who use shoe pegs. Just giving options. Here's the hammer shank that fell out.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    608-518-2441
    928-899-7292



  • 28.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-07-2015 18:00

    I'd like to point out that when inserting shims, position them so they (or it) is in line with the grain. If installed cross-grain, then the pressure of the screw can cause cracking along the grain by spreading; especially in tubular rails. Actually, position it just ahead of in-line; so the turning motion of the screw will drag it in-line, or as best can be. Install the shim and screw without whatever is being fastened. Install the screw a little deeper than needed to secure the part. Once the glue is set, install the part. Usually, I'll just insert a long shim, insert the screw and trim the excess; this gives you a handle to position the shim.

    What I usually do on tubular rails when everything is off, is to place a drop or two of thin CA glue into each screw hole and let it soak in to reinforce the wood.

    ------------------------------
    Regards,

    Jon Page



  • 29.  RE: Stripped case screw holes

    Posted 12-07-2015 22:16

    Hi, Jon

    Just so that everyone understands you let the CA set up completely before installing the screws. I've followed work where someone attempted to mend 2 split upright wippen birdseyes by using CA and then pushing in a center pin to define the hole. Totally seized in place. He left the two wippens on the floor of the piano, and inscribed a deeply scored obscenity with a dark pencil. He didn't come back with replacement parts.

    I love CA for some things, but not for using where it will contact metal screws. The great thing about white glue is that it is still flexible after setting up, and I've never once known it to seize any screws. All removable, just the new leather/glue threading left behind in the hole ready to turn them back in. A perfect fit.

    ------------------------------
    Susan Kline
    Philomath, Oregon