Pianotech

Hello technicians, and Ed Mcmorrow. I have one for you. I was working on a 1960s Baldwin L in lake Ames Redmond last night.

Doing prep service, voicing and tuning.

The piano had the worst grabbing V bar and grabbing affrafes i have ever seen in my career. The F4 unisons would hold so much tension before it finally releases like a gunshot, startilng both myself and the owner. So I fully explained the situation to the owner. The piano was from spokane, and was in storage. No significant oxidation on the strings. I used all the protek in the world (which typically does nothing for agraffe pinging) 

So the strings may be hanging up at the coils, understring felt or agraffes / V bar in the treble.

This is the worst I have ever seen. I told them I will have to come back, and either just go for it and break the string, or just replace it.

Do you'all have any secret tricks? I know.you rebuild a lot of these Ed Mcmorrow. Thank you.

Hello technicians, and Ed Mcmorrow. I have one for you. I was working on a 1960s Baldwin L in lake Ames Redmond last night.

Doing prep service, voicing and tuning.

The piano had the worst grabbing V bar and grabbing affrafes i have ever seen in my career. The F4 unisons would hold so much tension before it finally releases like a gunshot, startilng both myself and the owner. So I fully explained the situation to the owner. The piano was from spokane, and was in storage. No significant oxidation on the strings. I used all the protek in the world (which typically does nothing for agraffe pinging) 

So the strings may be hanging up at the coils, understring felt or agraffes / V bar in the treble.

This is the worst I have ever seen. I told them I will have to come back, and either just go for it and break the string, or just replace it.

Do you'all have any secret tricks? I know.you rebuild a lot of these Ed Mcmorrow. Thank you.

Thank you for your reply. Where would I find john pages posts? If that's the case I'm thinking one of three options:

1. Apply Protek to the pinblock on the few notes that are supper tight. never do this, unless dire situation like this.

2. Remove tuning pin, apply Teflon to the block, reinstall. I've seen a piano by Roger gable that apparently had Teflon applied inside the pinblock, on a restrung piano.

3. Retire from this.

Thanks.

Thank you for your reply. Where would I find john pages posts? If that's the case I'm thinking one of three options:

1. Apply Protek to the pinblock on the few notes that are supper tight. never do this, unless dire situation like this.

2. Remove tuning pin, apply Teflon to the block, reinstall. I've seen a piano by Roger gable that apparently had Teflon applied inside the pinblock, on a restrung piano.

3. Retire from this.

Thanks.

Hello technicians, and Ed Mcmorrow. I have one for you. I was working on a 1960s Baldwin L in lake Ames Redmond last night.

Doing prep service, voicing and tuning.

The piano had the worst grabbing V bar and grabbing affrafes i have ever seen in my career. The F4 unisons would hold so much tension before it finally releases like a gunshot, startilng both myself and the owner. So I fully explained the situation to the owner. The piano was from spokane, and was in storage. No significant oxidation on the strings. I used all the protek in the world (which typically does nothing for agraffe pinging) 

So the strings may be hanging up at the coils, understring felt or agraffes / V bar in the treble.

This is the worst I have ever seen. I told them I will have to come back, and either just go for it and break the string, or just replace it.

Do you'all have any secret tricks? I know.you rebuild a lot of these Ed Mcmorrow. Thank you.

Hello technicians, and Ed Mcmorrow. I have one for you. I was working on a 1960s Baldwin L in lake Ames Redmond last night.

Doing prep service, voicing and tuning.

The piano had the worst grabbing V bar and grabbing affrafes i have ever seen in my career. The F4 unisons would hold so much tension before it finally releases like a gunshot, startilng both myself and the owner. So I fully explained the situation to the owner. The piano was from spokane, and was in storage. No significant oxidation on the strings. I used all the protek in the world (which typically does nothing for agraffe pinging) 

So the strings may be hanging up at the coils, understring felt or agraffes / V bar in the treble.

This is the worst I have ever seen. I told them I will have to come back, and either just go for it and break the string, or just replace it.

Do you'all have any secret tricks? I know.you rebuild a lot of these Ed Mcmorrow. Thank you.

Hi Leif,

Sounds like you have gotten into a fun piano! 

Try to separate the pinging of sudden string movement from the motion or jumping of the pin. 

I don't ever think Protek or Teflon on a pin block would be a good idea. Maybe what you saw at Rogers was chalk. Some stringers use chalk on the pins to help reduce jumpiness. 

If the pin torque is too tight and the pin jumps when turning, all the symptoms you are experiencing can arise from that. You can work the tuning pin down a full "notch", (by this I mean the definite rotation of the full length of pin in the block), and back to pitch repeating as many times as it takes to reduce torque to a tunable condition. This is what Steinway has traditionally done during first tuning with action working to reduce the torque on over-tight pins.

Also the underside of the string across the tenor rest felt can have unseen corrosion in some pianos. The above method plus very little protea can be employed but I mean very little protea when I say that. None must reach the tuning pins so the best place to apply it is closer to the agraffe and let it wick up. 

Does this Baldwin have vertical hitch pins? If so it probably has the extra dense pin block and sometimes they have too tight pins. Even after all these years.

Mr. Mathisen,

  With all due deference to Mr. McMorrow. I seriously doubt that anyone is using chalk to reduce jumpy pins. Chalk on a tuning pin will cause rather severe seizing of the pin in the block .Back in the stone age, when I got started, the old timers would recommend chalk on the pin when the block had been contaminated with oil. The result is usually a pin that will not move at all until it suddenly, and frequently with a loud pop, moves more than you want it to. More likely what you may have seen is the use of talc on the pins or in the block. It is a common practice that I learned from friends at Steinway and continue to use to this day.

  While you are perusing the archives you should also pay close attention to the posts by Mr. Nossaman.  He has forgotten more about Baldwin pin blocks, bridges and soundboards than most of us are likely to have time to learn.

I know they have got to be using some sort of lubricant on 1980s +-  yamaha U3's because they behave differently than all other pianos which don't seem to have a block lube applied I'm any fashion. I tuned up to six a day of the yamaha and kawai upright pianos for the dealership. Maybe Yamaha learned from the Baldwin disaster. And that one piano that I tuned (rebuilt by Roger gable, and nice!) Unquestionably had some sort of lubricant or special method to keep the pins moving with super ease. It was not a loose block, it was the feel of a lubricant. The piano was a large dark brown walnut upright , from Sammamish. Owned by two musicians.

If it is the typical jumping and pinging of the strings in the tenor section, the wire is dragging on the counter bearing felt. I have remedied this many times with Counter Bearing Aliquots; just last week in fact.

If it is the pins themselves that are tight, where you can change the pitch 20 cents before the pin moves in the block, you need to turn the pins back and forth many times until the pin reams the block. Last year I had a r/r S&S M which was near impossible to tune because of the tight pins causing excessive torsion. I lowered the tension overall a half turn. Then I wrenched the pins back and forth another half turn down and back. 30 h/t's in the tenor and treble, 20 in the bass. Pull back to tension, tighten the becket and coils, etc. The piano is a pleasure to tune now.

Like Ron, I use powdered rosin during stringing and that is probably the powder you noticed. Unless the stringer used chalk on the hands, in which case it is better to wear light gloves.

If it is the typical jumping and pinging of the strings in the tenor section, the wire is dragging on the counter bearing felt. I have remedied this many times with Counter Bearing Aliquots; just last week in fact.

If it is the pins themselves that are tight, where you can change the pitch 20 cents before the pin moves in the block, you need to turn the pins back and forth many times until the pin reams the block. Last year I had a r/r S&S M which was near impossible to tune because of the tight pins causing excessive torsion. I lowered the tension overall a half turn. Then I wrenched the pins back and forth another half turn down and back. 30 h/t's in the tenor and treble, 20 in the bass. Pull back to tension, tighten the becket and coils, etc. The piano is a pleasure to tune now.

Like Ron, I use powdered rosin during stringing and that is probably the powder you noticed. Unless the stringer used chalk on the hands, in which case it is better to wear light gloves.

Jon Page! You are the man. That sounds like an awesome idea:

Since we have discovered that it is the excessive tightness of the mid 1960s pinblock, and laminate type construction, ect. I will simply lower the pitch on the bad notes big time and then "work the pinblock out" give it a good 5 mins of 'turning' back and forth at low tension. Let it click away all it wants, at least we know the string won't break.

The pianos symptoms do appear to be commensurate with a loud pinblock noise. I didn't think that was the problem in customers home, but now do thanks to you.

Awesome idea!

DANGER!

Jon Page refers to a Steinway M, and you are workng on a Baldwin L.

The pinblocks are so different that they are hardly comparable.

The Steinway pinblock is made of a few layers of maple, it is very resiliant and forgives a large variance in diameter of the hole and pin. It wears out slowly. 

The Baldwin is made of glue, reinforced by thin layers of wood. It is very hard, and has little resiliance. The hole in the block must be very close to the size of the pin, or you won't be able to drive the pin into the block. Make a very slight error, and you have a pin that is too tight to move, or that jumps at the slightest touch. You can find both in the same Baldwin, perhaps due to drilling error, or perhaps due to irregular tuning pins.

You have a hypothesis which you have not tested. Proceed carefully, trying one or two pins. Turning ghem back and forth will generate a lot of heat. Give them time to cool before you judge the result.

WARNING: If this piano has accu-just hitch pins, and you cause the strings to slip out of adjustment, you will have greated a bigger problem.

Do you think that this piano was never tuned in the last fifty years? It was probably a bear of a job, but it is possible to tune these nasty things. You are using a Fujan with a rather high angle at the head. My memory of these, from the year I worked for a Baldwin dealer, is that they are best approached with a long handled lever, almost parallel to the string plane. Perhaps other list readers can share their approach to tuning these pianos.

Ed, I thought of that later in the day. Another concern is if the pins are really tight, the back and forth might cause metal fatigue and sheer the pin. I drill Delignit blocks with an F bit (.257") and sometimes a G bit (.261") in the high treble; Falconwood is bored with a .271" bit for a 2/0 (.281") pin.

Vertical hitch pins would add another layer of attention/frustration. If it is the tuning pins, the wiser procedure might be to restring and ream the block properly or replace it altogether.

I have a 1996 Baldwin L in the shop now. The tuning is fine, it is the action that was a nightmare. It was a good example of why Baldwin went out of business. TW was in the 70's with 8 mm key dip; talk about hard to play. Removing hammer mass, moving the capstans forwards 3 mm and shimming the top action 1.5 mm allowed for 10.2 mm key dip and brought the TW to the low 50's with the judicious addition of a little lead. 

Ed, I thought of that later in the day. Another concern is if the pins are really tight, the back and forth might cause metal fatigue and sheer the pin. I drill Delignit blocks with an F bit (.257") and sometimes a G bit (.261") in the high treble; Falconwood is bored with a .271" bit for a 2/0 (.281") pin.

Vertical hitch pins would add another layer of attention/frustration. If it is the tuning pins, the wiser procedure might be to restring and ream the block properly or replace it altogether.

I have a 1996 Baldwin L in the shop now. The tuning is fine, it is the action that was a nightmare. It was a good example of why Baldwin went out of business. TW was in the 70's with 8 mm key dip; talk about hard to play. Removing hammer mass, moving the capstans forwards 3 mm and shimming the top action 1.5 mm allowed for 10.2 mm key dip and brought the TW to the low 50's with the judicious addition of a little lead. 

Jon, I'm smiling...you and I are getting to be old, and may have seen too many Baldwin Ls.

But I must testify that last year I saw one, a new customer, that was a gorgeous living room piano! The design was there, if they could have just gotten the execution right.

------------------------------
Ed Sutton
ed440@me.com
704-536-7926

Ed, I thought of that later in the day. Another concern is if the pins are really tight, the back and forth might cause metal fatigue and sheer the pin. I drill Delignit blocks with an F bit (.257") and sometimes a G bit (.261") in the high treble; Falconwood is bored with a .271" bit for a 2/0 (.281") pin.

Vertical hitch pins would add another layer of attention/frustration. If it is the tuning pins, the wiser procedure might be to restring and ream the block properly or replace it altogether.

I have a 1996 Baldwin L in the shop now. The tuning is fine, it is the action that was a nightmare. It was a good example of why Baldwin went out of business. TW was in the 70's with 8 mm key dip; talk about hard to play. Removing hammer mass, moving the capstans forwards 3 mm and shimming the top action 1.5 mm allowed for 10.2 mm key dip and brought the TW to the low 50's with the judicious addition of a little lead. 

DANGER!

Jon Page refers to a Steinway M, and you are workng on a Baldwin L.

The pinblocks are so different that they are hardly comparable.

The Steinway pinblock is made of a few layers of maple, it is very resiliant and forgives a large variance in diameter of the hole and pin. It wears out slowly. 

The Baldwin is made of glue, reinforced by thin layers of wood. It is very hard, and has little resiliance. The hole in the block must be very close to the size of the pin, or you won't be able to drive the pin into the block. Make a very slight error, and you have a pin that is too tight to move, or that jumps at the slightest touch. You can find both in the same Baldwin, perhaps due to drilling error, or perhaps due to irregular tuning pins.

You have a hypothesis which you have not tested. Proceed carefully, trying one or two pins. Turning ghem back and forth will generate a lot of heat. Give them time to cool before you judge the result.

WARNING: If this piano has accu-just hitch pins, and you cause the strings to slip out of adjustment, you will have greated a bigger problem.

Do you think that this piano was never tuned in the last fifty years? It was probably a bear of a job, but it is possible to tune these nasty things. You are using a Fujan with a rather high angle at the head. My memory of these, from the year I worked for a Baldwin dealer, is that they are best approached with a long handled lever, almost parallel to the string plane. Perhaps other list readers can share their approach to tuning these pianos.

Ron-

Yes, it is the difference between static and sliding friction than makes it hard to control the pins in many of these blocks. On same piano I have struggled with hard to move pins, then been surprised by a pin that spins loose at the slightest touch - the same difference between static and sliding friction, but at much lower overall torque. In those cases there is no build up of spring forces in the pin. Perhaps the hole was drilled differently, glazed because the drill bit got too hot, or perhaps the tuning pin is smaller, or out of round. On these I find that a drop or two of CA helps with the jumping, probably because it makes a little collar around the pin.

On the very hard to move pins, my memory is that a long, straight, low tuning lever allowed better control of the jump, since the leverage at the hand was further from the pin, and the amount of bending was less. It was recommended in an article by Nic Gravagne to not be too fussy about getting the pin perfectly centered in the block, rather, take advantage of the friction in the pin and bearings to hold the string, somewhat as is recommended with Steinway verticals. In the case of the original question in this thread, lubricating all the bearings will now make it harder to stabilize the tuning.

Ron,

I understand your pinblock design.

I believe Yamaha has used a similar design, and it works well.

For the other issues, it would help to have some experimental data on whether a tight pinblock can hold a pin in a twisted configuration.

Ron,

I understand your pinblock design.

I believe Yamaha has used a similar design, and it works well.

For the other issues, it would help to have some experimental data on whether a tight pinblock can hold a pin in a twisted configuration.

So last night was a success, thanks to the guys. 

I told the owner of the piano that the 1960's and 1970's was a wild era for pianos. Piano engineers were doing drugs and LSD and testing the limits of creativity. And some of it turned out to be an utter disaster, like this design of pinblock, and the whole Teflon bushing idea, same era.

What? 

Are you serious?

Leif, I hope this was a joke.

ddf

So last night was a success, thanks to the guys. 

I told the owner of the piano that the 1960's and 1970's was a wild era for pianos. Piano engineers were doing drugs and LSD and testing the limits of creativity. And some of it turned out to be an utter disaster, like this design of pinblock, and the whole Teflon bushing idea, same era.

Jon Page! You are the man. That sounds like an awesome idea:

Since we have discovered that it is the excessive tightness of the mid 1960s pinblock, and laminate type construction, ect. I will simply lower the pitch on the bad notes big time and then "work the pinblock out" give it a good 5 mins of 'turning' back and forth at low tension. Let it click away all it wants, at least we know the string won't break.

The pianos symptoms do appear to be commensurate with a loud pinblock noise. I didn't think that was the problem in customers home, but now do thanks to you.

Awesome idea!

I know they have got to be using some sort of lubricant on 1980s +-  yamaha U3's because they behave differently than all other pianos which don't seem to have a block lube applied I'm any fashion. I tuned up to six a day of the yamaha and kawai upright pianos for the dealership. Maybe Yamaha learned from the Baldwin disaster. And that one piano that I tuned (rebuilt by Roger gable, and nice!) Unquestionably had some sort of lubricant or special method to keep the pins moving with super ease. It was not a loose block, it was the feel of a lubricant. The piano was a large dark brown walnut upright , from Sammamish. Owned by two musicians.