Pianotech

Hi List,
A client’s Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been “modernized,” (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren’t,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

Hey Joe -
You said that the legs had been modified (modernized) as to the shape, but you didn't say, or don't know whether the plates are original.  In any case, you found the problem.  One or the other of the plates is sitting 'proud' of the wood.  You would have to either route out the relief, allowing the 'timing' of the plate and wood surface interface to be precise, or, alternatively, you could build up the perimeter of the leg top, as a shim.  
While taking off the legs would tell you more, I don't know that actually removing the plates from their positions would do any good, unless you planned to actually modify the seat.
As per last time, I could be wrong

------------------------------
David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
917-589-2625
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 13:29
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client's Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been "modernized," (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren't,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 2:27:00 PM
From: David Skolnik
Subject: RE: Shaky legs

Hey Joe -
You said that the legs had been modified (modernized) as to the shape, but you didn't say, or don't know whether the plates are original.  In any case, you found the problem.  One or the other of the plates is sitting 'proud' of the wood.  You would have to either route out the relief, allowing the 'timing' of the plate and wood surface interface to be precise, or, alternatively, you could build up the perimeter of the leg top, as a shim.  
While taking off the legs would tell you more, I don't know that actually removing the plates from their positions would do any good, unless you planned to actually modify the seat.
As per last time, I could be wrong

------------------------------
David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
917-589-2625
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 13:29
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client's Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been "modernized," (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren't,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 2:38:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: RE: Shaky legs

Thanks David,

What would you suggest for building up the perimeter of the leg (just in case the plates are not actually proud?)

Epoxy? Veneers?

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 2:27:00 PM
From: David Skolnik
Subject: RE: Shaky legs

Hey Joe -
You said that the legs had been modified (modernized) as to the shape, but you didn't say, or don't know whether the plates are original.  In any case, you found the problem.  One or the other of the plates is sitting 'proud' of the wood.  You would have to either route out the relief, allowing the 'timing' of the plate and wood surface interface to be precise, or, alternatively, you could build up the perimeter of the leg top, as a shim.  
While taking off the legs would tell you more, I don't know that actually removing the plates from their positions would do any good, unless you planned to actually modify the seat.
As per last time, I could be wrong

------------------------------
David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
917-589-2625
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 13:29
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client's Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been "modernized," (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren't,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

Veneer seems the most likely.

------------------------------
David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
917-589-2625
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 14:37
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Thanks David,

What would you suggest for building up the perimeter of the leg (just in case the plates are not actually proud?)

Epoxy? Veneers?

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 2:27:00 PM
From: David Skolnik
Subject: RE: Shaky legs

Hey Joe -
You said that the legs had been modified (modernized) as to the shape, but you didn't say, or don't know whether the plates are original.  In any case, you found the problem.  One or the other of the plates is sitting 'proud' of the wood.  You would have to either route out the relief, allowing the 'timing' of the plate and wood surface interface to be precise, or, alternatively, you could build up the perimeter of the leg top, as a shim.
While taking off the legs would tell you more, I don't know that actually removing the plates from their positions would do any good, unless you planned to actually modify the seat.
As per last time, I could be wrong

------------------------------
David Skolnik [RPT]
Hastings-on-Hudson NY
917-589-2625

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 13:29
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client's Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been "modernized," (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren't,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 1:30:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client’s Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been “modernized,” (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren’t,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

Precisely as Joel says, I would rout AS NEEDED to assure positive fit. You also need to file the dovetails fiur positive locking. I have run into this as well when no amount of pounding it together created a good tight fit because the plates themselves did not fit well. Had to make em fit. 

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 16:19
From: Joel Weber
Subject: Shaky legs

I have replaced some of these locking plates and learned that making them flush does not always equate the best joint (lock).

Plates may need to sit slightly lower or recessed to allow locking angles to pull together tightly. 

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 1:30:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client's Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been "modernized," (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren't,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

First thing I do when a piano comes in is flip it and mate the legs, because a wobble can be difficult to fix especially upside down. I also set the plate a little lower than flush. I also, before even doing that, joint the top of the leg, and joint the mating area on the bottom of the keybed. One of the other, is usually convex. So I mate them so its a secure non-rocking fit, even before messing with the plates. Its hard to do upside down, which is why I flip the piano. But the top of the legs can be hand planed on site, if need be, even with the piano right side up.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 17:35
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Shaky legs

Precisely as Joel says, I would rout AS NEEDED to assure positive fit. You also need to file the dovetails fiur positive locking. I have run into this as well when no amount of pounding it together created a good tight fit because the plates themselves did not fit well. Had to make em fit.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 16:19
From: Joel Weber
Subject: Shaky legs

I have replaced some of these locking plates and learned that making them flush does not always equate the best joint (lock).

Plates may need to sit slightly lower or recessed to allow locking angles to pull together tightly. 

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 1:30:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client's Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been "modernized," (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren't,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

Thanks to all for these great and helpful suggestions!

For routing the plate recesses, I’m imagining it can be done with a laminate trim bit? I usually only
employ my router mounted in the table, for front rail bushing channels or for re-shoeing a keyset.

Joe


Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 6:00:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Shaky legs

First thing I do when a piano comes in is flip it and mate the legs, because a wobble can be difficult to fix especially upside down. I also set the plate a little lower than flush. I also, before even doing that, joint the top of the leg, and joint the mating area on the bottom of the keybed. One of the other, is usually convex. So I mate them so its a secure non-rocking fit, even before messing with the plates. Its hard to do upside down, which is why I flip the piano. But the top of the legs can be hand planed on site, if need be, even with the piano right side up.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 17:35
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Shaky legs

Precisely as Joel says, I would rout AS NEEDED to assure positive fit. You also need to file the dovetails fiur positive locking. I have run into this as well when no amount of pounding it together created a good tight fit because the plates themselves did not fit well. Had to make em fit.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 16:19
From: Joel Weber
Subject: Shaky legs

I have replaced some of these locking plates and learned that making them flush does not always equate the best joint (lock).

Plates may need to sit slightly lower or recessed to allow locking angles to pull together tightly. 

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 1:30:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client's Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been "modernized," (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren't,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

Great advice above. The male/female cast plates must be ft to each other prior to installation with a file. I prefer to file off of the female part to bring them into full contact. Look out for "bumps" at the outer surfaces too that can interfere with full solid fit.

If the plates need recessing, I just use a spiral router bit and free hand it over the mounting surface to make room with the leg held between my legs. It is surprising how precise you can be if you are gentle and work with the grain/bit rotation. Many of the 1960's to 1980's Steinway's need to have their legs and lyre reset.

Also, lube the caster shafts with a small amount of grease and sparingly oil the caster axles.

------------------------------
Edward McMorrow
Edmonds WA
425-299-3431
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 19:08
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Thanks to all for these great and helpful suggestions!

For routing the plate recesses, I'm imagining it can be done with a laminate trim bit? I usually only
employ my router mounted in the table, for front rail bushing channels or for re-shoeing a keyset.

Joe


Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 6:00:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Shaky legs

First thing I do when a piano comes in is flip it and mate the legs, because a wobble can be difficult to fix especially upside down. I also set the plate a little lower than flush. I also, before even doing that, joint the top of the leg, and joint the mating area on the bottom of the keybed. One of the other, is usually convex. So I mate them so its a secure non-rocking fit, even before messing with the plates. Its hard to do upside down, which is why I flip the piano. But the top of the legs can be hand planed on site, if need be, even with the piano right side up.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 17:35
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Shaky legs

Precisely as Joel says, I would rout AS NEEDED to assure positive fit. You also need to file the dovetails fiur positive locking. I have run into this as well when no amount of pounding it together created a good tight fit because the plates themselves did not fit well. Had to make em fit.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 16:19
From: Joel Weber
Subject: Shaky legs

I have replaced some of these locking plates and learned that making them flush does not always equate the best joint (lock).

Plates may need to sit slightly lower or recessed to allow locking angles to pull together tightly. 

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 1:30:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client's Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been "modernized," (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren't,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC

The best way to do the routing is to use a plunge router with a straight bit and to carefully control the bit depth, You need to secure the leg and the lyre if you are doing the leg or lyre. The routing can be done freehand but it is a good idea to have a clear plate on the base of the router to span the mortise. Wear ear and eye protection as well as a dust mask and do not force the router. Depending on the make and model of router you own you may be able to purchase a plunge router attachment. However it is easier to get a more compact plunge router since table and routers on stands tend to be heavy and bulky.
You can read up about routers on several web sites and publications like Wood , Woodworking

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 19:08
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Thanks to all for these great and helpful suggestions!

For routing the plate recesses, I'm imagining it can be done with a laminate trim bit? I usually only
employ my router mounted in the table, for front rail bushing channels or for re-shoeing a keyset.

Joe


Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 6:00:00 PM
From: Jim Ialeggio
Subject: RE: Shaky legs

First thing I do when a piano comes in is flip it and mate the legs, because a wobble can be difficult to fix especially upside down. I also set the plate a little lower than flush. I also, before even doing that, joint the top of the leg, and joint the mating area on the bottom of the keybed. One of the other, is usually convex. So I mate them so its a secure non-rocking fit, even before messing with the plates. Its hard to do upside down, which is why I flip the piano. But the top of the legs can be hand planed on site, if need be, even with the piano right side up.

------------------------------
Jim Ialeggio
grandpianosolutions.com
Shirley, MA
978 425-9026

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 17:35
From: Peter Grey
Subject: Shaky legs

Precisely as Joel says, I would rout AS NEEDED to assure positive fit. You also need to file the dovetails fiur positive locking. I have run into this as well when no amount of pounding it together created a good tight fit because the plates themselves did not fit well. Had to make em fit.

Pwg

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
603-686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 06-06-2021 16:19
From: Joel Weber
Subject: Shaky legs

I have replaced some of these locking plates and learned that making them flush does not always equate the best joint (lock).

Plates may need to sit slightly lower or recessed to allow locking angles to pull together tightly. 

Original Message:
Sent: 6/6/2021 1:30:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Shaky legs

Hi List,
A client's Steinway A from 1890s has legs that are less than perfectly solid. The legs have been "modernized," (spade) with the familiar older style locking plates. I removed each leg, made sure the plates were not cracked (they aren't,) tightened the plate screws (very little movement available.) Where the plates on leg and underside meet, there are no gaps, however, the wings of the top leg block show light when looking through at eye level.

My questions are, what means or materials might possibly be needed to solidify?, and what else might I need to investigate as to why the legs are mating with the piano only at the plates?

Would removing one side of the plate from either the legs or the piano to more easily inspect gain a better picture of the actual mating?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Wiencek
NYC