Pianotech

2007 Estonia L. 

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak. 

Looking for repair recommendations. 

Thanks --



------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

If the joint is solid, as you say, then there is nothing moving. If nothing is moving, nothing can be rubbing or squeaking, no?
 What am I missing?

If the sound is really coming from where you say it is, then the joint is not solid.  I am not one of those "CA glue cures all evils" person, and it seems a it risky to put some on and let it weep into the gap, but it might be tempting.....

PS I had a pedal squeak once which after a lot of mucking around I attributed to my shoe sole interacting with the brass pedal. (!) So I literally "lubricated the pedal" by putting some Pro-Lube on it.

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

> If the joint is solid, as you say, then there is nothing moving. If nothing is moving, nothing can be rubbing or squeaking, no?
 What am I missing?

Jurgen --

The large dowels that are used to mount the posts into the top mount and the bottom box are tightly glued in and also include the standard wedges to secure the fit. But, as in most assemblies, the only place where glue is used to mount the posts is on that large dowel. Not the surface area that is in face to face contact with the downward facing surface of the top mount nor the upward facing surface of the pedal box. Those posts are not loose and they aren't going anywhere. When mounted under the piano the support rods are tight and keep the entire pedal lyre solid and it does not move. The squeak, actually more like a creak, is not, in my opinion, due to problems with the actual construction of the lyre. I believe it is more due to the unavoidable flex of the adjoining parts, one against the other. I can pull the lyre out from the piano and, with a little effort, tweak the posts by hand and create the creak. 

I think it's fairly common to find pianos that are finished in polyester to have two finished surfaces touching each other. A shiny polyester finish rubbing against another shiny polyester finish is going to squeak. And it doesn't take much movement for that to happen. The only way I have found to eliminate that surface to surface squeak is to either prevent the two surfaces from making contact with each other, or to lightly sand the surface of the finish, removing the shine, at the points where they come into contact. What I believe is happening here is that both the the bottom of the posts and the top of the pedal box were finished in the same polyester that coats the rest of the piano, and then the pedal lyre was assembled. The polyester finish on the top of the pedal box is in contact with the polyester finish on the bottom of the post. No matter how tight and solid the construction of the pedal lyre is, it's not going to take but the slightest of flex at those two surfaces to create that squeak/creak. 

What I'm trying to avoid is having to tear apart this otherwise very solid pedal lyre in order to address that polyester surface against polyester surface coating that is causing the squeak. 

Does that help your understanding?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 18:04
From: Jurgen Goering
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

If the joint is solid, as you say, then there is nothing moving. If nothing is moving, nothing can be rubbing or squeaking, no?
 What am I missing?

If the sound is really coming from where you say it is, then the joint is not solid.  I am not one of those "CA glue cures all evils" person, and it seems a it risky to put some on and let it weep into the gap, but it might be tempting.....

PS I had a pedal squeak once which after a lot of mucking around I attributed to my shoe sole interacting with the brass pedal. (!) So I literally "lubricated the pedal" by putting some Pro-Lube on it.

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I’d be tempted to wick in CA around the posts (protect posts with tape, and turn the lyre upside down so it doesn’t go to the pedal box.)
You might try wicking some in from the pedal box next to the post dowels?

Joe Wiencek


Original Message:
Sent: 6/16/2021 8:23:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

> If the joint is solid, as you say, then there is nothing moving. If nothing is moving, nothing can be rubbing or squeaking, no?
 What am I missing?

Jurgen --

The large dowels that are used to mount the posts into the top mount and the bottom box are tightly glued in and also include the standard wedges to secure the fit. But, as in most assemblies, the only place where glue is used to mount the posts is on that large dowel. Not the surface area that is in face to face contact with the downward facing surface of the top mount nor the upward facing surface of the pedal box. Those posts are not loose and they aren't going anywhere. When mounted under the piano the support rods are tight and keep the entire pedal lyre solid and it does not move. The squeak, actually more like a creak, is not, in my opinion, due to problems with the actual construction of the lyre. I believe it is more due to the unavoidable flex of the adjoining parts, one against the other. I can pull the lyre out from the piano and, with a little effort, tweak the posts by hand and create the creak. 

I think it's fairly common to find pianos that are finished in polyester to have two finished surfaces touching each other. A shiny polyester finish rubbing against another shiny polyester finish is going to squeak. And it doesn't take much movement for that to happen. The only way I have found to eliminate that surface to surface squeak is to either prevent the two surfaces from making contact with each other, or to lightly sand the surface of the finish, removing the shine, at the points where they come into contact. What I believe is happening here is that both the the bottom of the posts and the top of the pedal box were finished in the same polyester that coats the rest of the piano, and then the pedal lyre was assembled. The polyester finish on the top of the pedal box is in contact with the polyester finish on the bottom of the post. No matter how tight and solid the construction of the pedal lyre is, it's not going to take but the slightest of flex at those two surfaces to create that squeak/creak. 

What I'm trying to avoid is having to tear apart this otherwise very solid pedal lyre in order to address that polyester surface against polyester surface coating that is causing the squeak. 

Does that help your understanding?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 18:04
From: Jurgen Goering
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

If the joint is solid, as you say, then there is nothing moving. If nothing is moving, nothing can be rubbing or squeaking, no?
 What am I missing?

If the sound is really coming from where you say it is, then the joint is not solid.  I am not one of those "CA glue cures all evils" person, and it seems a it risky to put some on and let it weep into the gap, but it might be tempting.....

PS I had a pedal squeak once which after a lot of mucking around I attributed to my shoe sole interacting with the brass pedal. (!) So I literally "lubricated the pedal" by putting some Pro-Lube on it.

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 6/16/2021 6:05:00 PM
From: Jurgen Goering
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

If the joint is solid, as you say, then there is nothing moving. If nothing is moving, nothing can be rubbing or squeaking, no?
 What am I missing?

If the sound is really coming from where you say it is, then the joint is not solid.  I am not one of those "CA glue cures all evils" person, and it seems a it risky to put some on and let it weep into the gap, but it might be tempting.....

PS I had a pedal squeak once which after a lot of mucking around I attributed to my shoe sole interacting with the brass pedal. (!) So I literally "lubricated the pedal" by putting some Pro-Lube on it.

------------------------------
Jurgen Goering
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

The real source could be where the lyre support rods and bracketts attach to the pedal box. Try unscrewing them and see if the noise abates. If so put some small felt punchings between the bracket and the finish. When I encounter squeaks on the legs of polyester benches I put small pieces of felt on the two sides of the leg where they attach to the bench frame. You can use some of the felt that comes preglued for use on the bottom of fallboards.

You may have no choice but to take off the lyre and open up the pedal box. You could then try to wiggle the posts and observe any play or gaps. Perhaps some medium CA inside of the top of the pedal box will help tighten things. Another option may to use a very thin xacto blade and go around the base of the lyre post to clean some of the polyester finish away. Remember that there is quite a bit of stress placed on the lyre and pedal box and just about anything can create a squeal/noise. There could even be a squeak coming from the pedal rod guides, the pedal rods or where the top of the lyre posts meet the top shelf.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Another thought is to go around the post with a dremel tool and fine saw blade or even a gentlemens fine tooth saw and cut a kerf all around the post so there is no polyester to polyester contact. Protect the finish on the pedal box with painters tape. Its worth a try and would avoid removing the lyre

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 18:42
From: James Kelly
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

The real source could be where the lyre support rods and bracketts attach to the pedal box. Try unscrewing them and see if the noise abates. If so put some small felt punchings between the bracket and the finish. When I encounter squeaks on the legs of polyester benches I put small pieces of felt on the two sides of the leg where they attach to the bench frame. You can use some of the felt that comes preglued for use on the bottom of fallboards.

You may have no choice but to take off the lyre and open up the pedal box. You could then try to wiggle the posts and observe any play or gaps. Perhaps some medium CA inside of the top of the pedal box will help tighten things. Another option may to use a very thin xacto blade and go around the base of the lyre post to clean some of the polyester finish away. Remember that there is quite a bit of stress placed on the lyre and pedal box and just about anything can create a squeal/noise. There could even be a squeak coming from the pedal rod guides, the pedal rods or where the top of the lyre posts meet the top shelf.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

I chased a squeak for a while, and finally found it to be loose screws holding the pedal rod guide to the back of the lyre, up near the top.  This may well not be your problem, but it evaded me for long enough that I think it worth mentioning.

------------------------------
Floyd Gadd
Regina SK
306-502-9103
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 22:13
From: James Kelly
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Another thought is to go around the post with a dremel tool and fine saw blade or even a gentlemens fine tooth saw and cut a kerf all around the post so there is no polyester to polyester contact. Protect the finish on the pedal box with painters tape. Its worth a try and would avoid removing the lyre

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 18:42
From: James Kelly
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

The real source could be where the lyre support rods and bracketts attach to the pedal box. Try unscrewing them and see if the noise abates. If so put some small felt punchings between the bracket and the finish. When I encounter squeaks on the legs of polyester benches I put small pieces of felt on the two sides of the leg where they attach to the bench frame. You can use some of the felt that comes preglued for use on the bottom of fallboards.

You may have no choice but to take off the lyre and open up the pedal box. You could then try to wiggle the posts and observe any play or gaps. Perhaps some medium CA inside of the top of the pedal box will help tighten things. Another option may to use a very thin xacto blade and go around the base of the lyre post to clean some of the polyester finish away. Remember that there is quite a bit of stress placed on the lyre and pedal box and just about anything can create a squeal/noise. There could even be a squeak coming from the pedal rod guides, the pedal rods or where the top of the lyre posts meet the top shelf.

------------------------------
James Kelly
Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
Pawleys Island SC
843-325-4357

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Hi Geoff, you could try tightly blocking up the bottom of the lyre just to see if the groan persist. Also, try a squirt of TFL 50 dry lube into any suspect gap or seam and test as you go. Wipe of any white film the occurs.

------------------------------
Randy Prentice
Tucson AZ
520-749-3788
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Randy --

I had thought of blocking up the bottom of the lyre but due to the start of a piano lesson just as I finished tuning there was not the opportunity to try it. TFL-50, however, is the kind of possible cure I was looking for. Thanks for the suggestion.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2021 11:35
From: Randy Prentice
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Hi Geoff, you could try tightly blocking up the bottom of the lyre just to see if the groan persist. Also, try a squirt of TFL 50 dry lube into any suspect gap or seam and test as you go. Wipe of any white film the occurs.

------------------------------
Randy Prentice
Tucson AZ
520-749-3788

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff, the first things that came to mind were what Joe suggested, the dry lube idea is a good one too. But I would be really concerned about damaging the finish with the Ca, though polyester is really tough. 
Another solution might be to wrap some really thin dental floss between the two parts if you can work it in.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2021 12:49
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Randy --

I had thought of blocking up the bottom of the lyre but due to the start of a piano lesson just as I finished tuning there was not the opportunity to try it. TFL-50, however, is the kind of possible cure I was looking for. Thanks for the suggestion.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2021 11:35
From: Randy Prentice
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Hi Geoff, you could try tightly blocking up the bottom of the lyre just to see if the groan persist. Also, try a squirt of TFL 50 dry lube into any suspect gap or seam and test as you go. Wipe of any white film the occurs.

------------------------------
Randy Prentice
Tucson AZ
520-749-3788

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Steven --

Hah! Dental floss. What a great idea. Thanks!

No, I don't think CA glue would work in this situation. It doesn't really work well with shiny surfaces unless there is absolutely no chance of movement. It's generally sort of brittle after it dries, meaning the first flex that comes along would likely crack the bond leaving an even harder problem to solve.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2021 15:01
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff, the first things that came to mind were what Joe suggested, the dry lube idea is a good one too. But I would be really concerned about damaging the finish with the Ca, though polyester is really tough.
Another solution might be to wrap some really thin dental floss between the two parts if you can work it in.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2021 12:49
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Randy --

I had thought of blocking up the bottom of the lyre but due to the start of a piano lesson just as I finished tuning there was not the opportunity to try it. TFL-50, however, is the kind of possible cure I was looking for. Thanks for the suggestion.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-17-2021 11:35
From: Randy Prentice
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Hi Geoff, you could try tightly blocking up the bottom of the lyre just to see if the groan persist. Also, try a squirt of TFL 50 dry lube into any suspect gap or seam and test as you go. Wipe of any white film the occurs.

------------------------------
Randy Prentice
Tucson AZ
520-749-3788

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate. 

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff

maybe this has been mentioned already as I'm seeing this post for the first time, but the first time I had a squeak like this on a poly finished piano, it was the lyre braces where they contacted the keybed.

------------------------------
Willem "Wim" Blees, RPT
Mililani, HI 96789
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 17:36
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate.

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 5:36:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate. 

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

A threaded interior brace installed along the tenon joint (3" x 12/14 hex head sheet metal screw/washer) will prevent the pieces from moving but I would also recommend GluBoost Black Fill & Finish to fill the gap once the box and top block are clamped together. Or apply, then clamp, being careful on how much 'coming together' there will be.

GB has a very narrow applicator tip that will allow pin-point application. It will also fill the gap and it's meniscus will look like part of the finish. I have filled many black finishes with the stuff with success.

I have asked them repeatedly to make a White CA for plastic and ivory repair. An amber coloring agent could be mixed in for ivory matching. AK II darkens with age and needs to be chipped out and reapplied.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 19:04
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff,

I got some good advice from Alan Eder not about squeaking, but about loose lyre posts.  Maybe this would work for you too?

Drill a hole to accept an upright maple shank on the border between the post dowels and the top block/bottom block of the lyre, on either side of the post dowels. Fill the holes with glue and follow by pounding in a hammer shank.  This forces glue into crevices that are starved, and perhaps could serve to eliminate your (sic) squeaks. You just need to beware of drilling depth that you don't drill out the bottom/top finish of the top and bottom blocks. Usually this is only an issue on one side of the post dowels. The process start to finish takes me 1/2 hour, and less the more I do it. 

Jon Page describes a similar process involving a screw sunk below the surface, and the threads lock in the space between post dowel and top/bottom blocks. I recently saw such screws on an 1883 Steinway A. It looked like an original operation, not post production. Tightening these screws significantly lessened the swiveling of the posts. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 5:36:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate.

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Jon --

I never thought of this as a mortise and tenon joint, but that's what it is, only round. Learned something new. 

The tenon joints, both top and bottom are tight. They are not slipping. After seeing this problem again the other day I'm pretty sure the creak/squeak is due to the fact that the mating surface at the top of the post is not square, and therefore not flush against the surface of the block that houses the mortise/tenon join. As a result this allows the post to flex a tiny bit, allowing the two finished mating surfaces to rub against each other and squeak. As I think about it, it could also be that the mortise hole may have been drilled at a slight angle which is preventing the tenon from going in straight. Indeed, one edge of the post, where it sits against the block, has a larger gap than the opposite side. Like it's leaning a bit. 

My thinking was to separate the two pieces so I could reshape the top of the post to sit flat against the block and then put it back together using all the reinforcements suggested here. If I could get rid of that gap it would prevent the post from flexing at that joint and stop the squeak. But since the current glue join appears to be solid and tight I was looking for recommendations on how to pull those two pieces apart without damaging anything. 

Your suggestion of using the GluBoost product may be an easier solution. The gap I have to fill is perhaps 1/2mm on one side and close to zero on the opposite side. After visiting the site I'm thinking that GluBoost would be a great way to fill that gap attractively. My concern, then, is how well it would solidify that space so that the ultra tiny exposed part of the tenon no longer has the ability to flex. The site sort of emphasizes that GluBoost is more of a finish repair rather than a strong hold-it-in-place repair. The mortise/tenon joint in a pedal lyre is a seriously high stress joint and I'm afraid that a CA glue fix will easily crack once stressed like that. 

Do you have an experience using the GluBoost product in a high stress repair? If yes, how is it holding?

Do you think that epoxy might be a better product to fill that gap?


------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 19:26
From: Jon Page
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

A threaded interior brace installed along the tenon joint (3" x 12/14 hex head sheet metal screw/washer) will prevent the pieces from moving but I would also recommend GluBoost Black Fill & Finish to fill the gap once the box and top block are clamped together. Or apply, then clamp, being careful on how much 'coming together' there will be.

GB has a very narrow applicator tip that will allow pin-point application. It will also fill the gap and it's meniscus will look like part of the finish. I have filled many black finishes with the stuff with success.

I have asked them repeatedly to make a White CA for plastic and ivory repair. An amber coloring agent could be mixed in for ivory matching. AK II darkens with age and needs to be chipped out and reapplied.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 19:04
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff,

I got some good advice from Alan Eder not about squeaking, but about loose lyre posts.  Maybe this would work for you too?

Drill a hole to accept an upright maple shank on the border between the post dowels and the top block/bottom block of the lyre, on either side of the post dowels. Fill the holes with glue and follow by pounding in a hammer shank.  This forces glue into crevices that are starved, and perhaps could serve to eliminate your (sic) squeaks. You just need to beware of drilling depth that you don't drill out the bottom/top finish of the top and bottom blocks. Usually this is only an issue on one side of the post dowels. The process start to finish takes me 1/2 hour, and less the more I do it. 

Jon Page describes a similar process involving a screw sunk below the surface, and the threads lock in the space between post dowel and top/bottom blocks. I recently saw such screws on an 1883 Steinway A. It looked like an original operation, not post production. Tightening these screws significantly lessened the swiveling of the posts. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 5:36:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate.

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Taper a wooden shim to fill the gap and glue it in with CA. GB Black CA dries hard. I would trust GB to do the job.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 20:47
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Jon --

I never thought of this as a mortise and tenon joint, but that's what it is, only round. Learned something new.

The tenon joints, both top and bottom are tight. They are not slipping. After seeing this problem again the other day I'm pretty sure the creak/squeak is due to the fact that the mating surface at the top of the post is not square, and therefore not flush against the surface of the block that houses the mortise/tenon join. As a result this allows the post to flex a tiny bit, allowing the two finished mating surfaces to rub against each other and squeak. As I think about it, it could also be that the mortise hole may have been drilled at a slight angle which is preventing the tenon from going in straight. Indeed, one edge of the post, where it sits against the block, has a larger gap than the opposite side. Like it's leaning a bit.

My thinking was to separate the two pieces so I could reshape the top of the post to sit flat against the block and then put it back together using all the reinforcements suggested here. If I could get rid of that gap it would prevent the post from flexing at that joint and stop the squeak. But since the current glue join appears to be solid and tight I was looking for recommendations on how to pull those two pieces apart without damaging anything.

Your suggestion of using the GluBoost product may be an easier solution. The gap I have to fill is perhaps 1/2mm on one side and close to zero on the opposite side. After visiting the site I'm thinking that GluBoost would be a great way to fill that gap attractively. My concern, then, is how well it would solidify that space so that the ultra tiny exposed part of the tenon no longer has the ability to flex. The site sort of emphasizes that GluBoost is more of a finish repair rather than a strong hold-it-in-place repair. The mortise/tenon joint in a pedal lyre is a seriously high stress joint and I'm afraid that a CA glue fix will easily crack once stressed like that.

Do you have an experience using the GluBoost product in a high stress repair? If yes, how is it holding?

Do you think that epoxy might be a better product to fill that gap?


------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 19:26
From: Jon Page
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

A threaded interior brace installed along the tenon joint (3" x 12/14 hex head sheet metal screw/washer) will prevent the pieces from moving but I would also recommend GluBoost Black Fill & Finish to fill the gap once the box and top block are clamped together. Or apply, then clamp, being careful on how much 'coming together' there will be.

GB has a very narrow applicator tip that will allow pin-point application. It will also fill the gap and it's meniscus will look like part of the finish. I have filled many black finishes with the stuff with success.

I have asked them repeatedly to make a White CA for plastic and ivory repair. An amber coloring agent could be mixed in for ivory matching. AK II darkens with age and needs to be chipped out and reapplied.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 19:04
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff,

I got some good advice from Alan Eder not about squeaking, but about loose lyre posts.  Maybe this would work for you too?

Drill a hole to accept an upright maple shank on the border between the post dowels and the top block/bottom block of the lyre, on either side of the post dowels. Fill the holes with glue and follow by pounding in a hammer shank.  This forces glue into crevices that are starved, and perhaps could serve to eliminate your (sic) squeaks. You just need to beware of drilling depth that you don't drill out the bottom/top finish of the top and bottom blocks. Usually this is only an issue on one side of the post dowels. The process start to finish takes me 1/2 hour, and less the more I do it. 

Jon Page describes a similar process involving a screw sunk below the surface, and the threads lock in the space between post dowel and top/bottom blocks. I recently saw such screws on an 1883 Steinway A. It looked like an original operation, not post production. Tightening these screws significantly lessened the swiveling of the posts. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 5:36:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate.

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

A couple of encouraging suggestions, here. I'll report back. Thanks!

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-12-2021 19:19
From: Jon Page
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Taper a wooden shim to fill the gap and glue it in with CA. GB Black CA dries hard. I would trust GB to do the job.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 20:47
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Jon --

I never thought of this as a mortise and tenon joint, but that's what it is, only round. Learned something new.

The tenon joints, both top and bottom are tight. They are not slipping. After seeing this problem again the other day I'm pretty sure the creak/squeak is due to the fact that the mating surface at the top of the post is not square, and therefore not flush against the surface of the block that houses the mortise/tenon join. As a result this allows the post to flex a tiny bit, allowing the two finished mating surfaces to rub against each other and squeak. As I think about it, it could also be that the mortise hole may have been drilled at a slight angle which is preventing the tenon from going in straight. Indeed, one edge of the post, where it sits against the block, has a larger gap than the opposite side. Like it's leaning a bit.

My thinking was to separate the two pieces so I could reshape the top of the post to sit flat against the block and then put it back together using all the reinforcements suggested here. If I could get rid of that gap it would prevent the post from flexing at that joint and stop the squeak. But since the current glue join appears to be solid and tight I was looking for recommendations on how to pull those two pieces apart without damaging anything.

Your suggestion of using the GluBoost product may be an easier solution. The gap I have to fill is perhaps 1/2mm on one side and close to zero on the opposite side. After visiting the site I'm thinking that GluBoost would be a great way to fill that gap attractively. My concern, then, is how well it would solidify that space so that the ultra tiny exposed part of the tenon no longer has the ability to flex. The site sort of emphasizes that GluBoost is more of a finish repair rather than a strong hold-it-in-place repair. The mortise/tenon joint in a pedal lyre is a seriously high stress joint and I'm afraid that a CA glue fix will easily crack once stressed like that.

Do you have an experience using the GluBoost product in a high stress repair? If yes, how is it holding?

Do you think that epoxy might be a better product to fill that gap?


------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 19:26
From: Jon Page
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

A threaded interior brace installed along the tenon joint (3" x 12/14 hex head sheet metal screw/washer) will prevent the pieces from moving but I would also recommend GluBoost Black Fill & Finish to fill the gap once the box and top block are clamped together. Or apply, then clamp, being careful on how much 'coming together' there will be.

GB has a very narrow applicator tip that will allow pin-point application. It will also fill the gap and it's meniscus will look like part of the finish. I have filled many black finishes with the stuff with success.

I have asked them repeatedly to make a White CA for plastic and ivory repair. An amber coloring agent could be mixed in for ivory matching. AK II darkens with age and needs to be chipped out and reapplied.

------------------------------
Regards,

Jon Page
mailto:jonpage@comcast.net
http://www.pianocapecod.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 19:04
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff,

I got some good advice from Alan Eder not about squeaking, but about loose lyre posts.  Maybe this would work for you too?

Drill a hole to accept an upright maple shank on the border between the post dowels and the top block/bottom block of the lyre, on either side of the post dowels. Fill the holes with glue and follow by pounding in a hammer shank.  This forces glue into crevices that are starved, and perhaps could serve to eliminate your (sic) squeaks. You just need to beware of drilling depth that you don't drill out the bottom/top finish of the top and bottom blocks. Usually this is only an issue on one side of the post dowels. The process start to finish takes me 1/2 hour, and less the more I do it. 

Jon Page describes a similar process involving a screw sunk below the surface, and the threads lock in the space between post dowel and top/bottom blocks. I recently saw such screws on an 1883 Steinway A. It looked like an original operation, not post production. Tightening these screws significantly lessened the swiveling of the posts. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 5:36:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate.

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 7:05:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff,

I got some good advice from Alan Eder not about squeaking, but about loose lyre posts.  Maybe this would work for you too?

Drill a hole to accept an upright maple shank on the border between the post dowels and the top block/bottom block of the lyre, on either side of the post dowels. Fill the holes with glue and follow by pounding in a hammer shank.  This forces glue into crevices that are starved, and perhaps could serve to eliminate your (sic) squeaks. You just need to beware of drilling depth that you don't drill out the bottom/top finish of the top and bottom blocks. Usually this is only an issue on one side of the post dowels. The process start to finish takes me 1/2 hour, and less the more I do it. 

Jon Page describes a similar process involving a screw sunk below the surface, and the threads lock in the space between post dowel and top/bottom blocks. I recently saw such screws on an 1883 Steinway A. It looked like an original operation, not post production. Tightening these screws significantly lessened the swiveling of the posts. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 5:36:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate. 

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Geoff, if you want to try to separate the pedal box, you might try a car jack. Maybe easier said than done, you won't know which will give first, the top or the bottom. If you haven't brought this into the shop yet you should. None of these prescriptions are things I'd want to try in the home.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 21:42
From: Joel Weber
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Unless you've already tried this, in order to truly isolate possible issue: remove the lyre struts and then

try to recreate the noise.  I would also simply press on edge of lyre without pushing any pedals - this

allows you to test noise by taking pedals, pedal bushings or bottom piece out of equation.

Joël Weber

WeberPianoCare

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 7:05:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff,

I got some good advice from Alan Eder not about squeaking, but about loose lyre posts.  Maybe this would work for you too?

Drill a hole to accept an upright maple shank on the border between the post dowels and the top block/bottom block of the lyre, on either side of the post dowels. Fill the holes with glue and follow by pounding in a hammer shank.  This forces glue into crevices that are starved, and perhaps could serve to eliminate your (sic) squeaks. You just need to beware of drilling depth that you don't drill out the bottom/top finish of the top and bottom blocks. Usually this is only an issue on one side of the post dowels. The process start to finish takes me 1/2 hour, and less the more I do it. 

Jon Page describes a similar process involving a screw sunk below the surface, and the threads lock in the space between post dowel and top/bottom blocks. I recently saw such screws on an 1883 Steinway A. It looked like an original operation, not post production. Tightening these screws significantly lessened the swiveling of the posts. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 5:36:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate.

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Steven --

Shop work only, for sure.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-12-2021 00:35
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff, if you want to try to separate the pedal box, you might try a car jack. Maybe easier said than done, you won't know which will give first, the top or the bottom. If you haven't brought this into the shop yet you should. None of these prescriptions are things I'd want to try in the home.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal
Honolulu HI
808-521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 21:42
From: Joel Weber
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Unless you've already tried this, in order to truly isolate possible issue: remove the lyre struts and then

try to recreate the noise.  I would also simply press on edge of lyre without pushing any pedals - this

allows you to test noise by taking pedals, pedal bushings or bottom piece out of equation.

Joël Weber

WeberPianoCare

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 7:05:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff,

I got some good advice from Alan Eder not about squeaking, but about loose lyre posts.  Maybe this would work for you too?

Drill a hole to accept an upright maple shank on the border between the post dowels and the top block/bottom block of the lyre, on either side of the post dowels. Fill the holes with glue and follow by pounding in a hammer shank.  This forces glue into crevices that are starved, and perhaps could serve to eliminate your (sic) squeaks. You just need to beware of drilling depth that you don't drill out the bottom/top finish of the top and bottom blocks. Usually this is only an issue on one side of the post dowels. The process start to finish takes me 1/2 hour, and less the more I do it. 

Jon Page describes a similar process involving a screw sunk below the surface, and the threads lock in the space between post dowel and top/bottom blocks. I recently saw such screws on an 1883 Steinway A. It looked like an original operation, not post production. Tightening these screws significantly lessened the swiveling of the posts. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 5:36:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate.

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Joel --

This is absolutely a lyre joint problem. I can get the squeak to happen with the lyre removed from the piano and, using some brute force, just twisting the lyre posts with my hands.

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 21:42
From: Joel Weber
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Unless you've already tried this, in order to truly isolate possible issue: remove the lyre struts and then

try to recreate the noise.  I would also simply press on edge of lyre without pushing any pedals - this

allows you to test noise by taking pedals, pedal bushings or bottom piece out of equation.

Joël Weber

WeberPianoCare

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 7:05:00 PM
From: Joe Wiencek
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Geoff,

I got some good advice from Alan Eder not about squeaking, but about loose lyre posts.  Maybe this would work for you too?

Drill a hole to accept an upright maple shank on the border between the post dowels and the top block/bottom block of the lyre, on either side of the post dowels. Fill the holes with glue and follow by pounding in a hammer shank.  This forces glue into crevices that are starved, and perhaps could serve to eliminate your (sic) squeaks. You just need to beware of drilling depth that you don't drill out the bottom/top finish of the top and bottom blocks. Usually this is only an issue on one side of the post dowels. The process start to finish takes me 1/2 hour, and less the more I do it. 

Jon Page describes a similar process involving a screw sunk below the surface, and the threads lock in the space between post dowel and top/bottom blocks. I recently saw such screws on an 1883 Steinway A. It looked like an original operation, not post production. Tightening these screws significantly lessened the swiveling of the posts. 

Joe

Original Message:
Sent: 7/11/2021 5:36:00 PM
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: RE: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate.

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------

If the gap is wide enough, perhaps you could insert a shim - like unlaminated biz card stock and as much wood glue as you can coax in there. Then clamp it tight for 24 hours with a bar clamp. This you could do in the home. If it is possible to rough up the surface within the gap - that would be good.

------------------------------
Randy Prentice
Tucson AZ
520-749-3788
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-11-2021 17:36
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

Time for plan B. I went back the other day armed with both dental floss and TFL-50. The gap is wide enough that neither of these will work. Unfortunately, the gap is also uneven. Like the flat parts of the wooden supports were not cut square. That means that where there is contact it's only along one edge. While I have the tools to cut a kerf around the posts, I don't think I'm skilled enough to pull this off with the lyre still in one piece without damaging the finish.

I think that what I now need to do is disassemble the lyre so that I can flatten and square the two ends of the posts, (which will also remove the finish, if any), and then reglue it, flat, with some small extra dowels along the edge of the large connecting dowels, as I have seen Isaac demonstrate.

Today's question: How do I go about actually taking the lyre apart. The posts are glued tight in their sockets. The top is put together with a large diameter dowel about 1" diameter. The bottom is the same except it has a split with a wedge pounded in for increased tightness. Taking a rubber mallet to this is probably not going to be the way to separate the pieces. I might possibly be able to drill out the wedges in the bottom but since there are no wedges in the top, how do I take this apart?

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA

Original Message:
Sent: 06-16-2021 17:16
From: Geoff Sykes
Subject: Finish vs squeak question

2007 Estonia L.

I've had to deal with pedal squeaks on this piano a couple of times. Usually taking the moving parts apart, cleaning and relubricating as needed does the trick. But this latest squeak is not moving part related. It's at the point where the pedal lyre posts attach to the pedal box. Everything is clean and the assembly is about as solid as I could hope for. I'm pretty convinced that this is a finish problem. Shiny black polyester finish on two facing surfaces rubbing just ever so slightly against each other. When I come upon this in things like bench lids I just take some very fine sandpaper and dull out the finish on the two contacting surfaces. Works every time. But it's going to be a lot of work if I have to take this pedal lyre apart just to clean up those contacting surfaces. Again, the construction of the pedal assembly is solid. Nothing is loose or structurally in need of repair. It's just those two facing surfaces that are rubbing just so teeny tiny amounts that is causing this more of a creaking sound than a squeak.

Looking for repair recommendations.

Thanks --

------------------------------
Geoff Sykes, RPT
Los Angeles CA
------------------------------