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New P.T seeking advice

  • 1.  New P.T seeking advice

    Posted 04-26-2022 13:54
    Greetings. I am a new Piano Technician who has tuned about 10 pianos, 2 of which were major pitch raises.  My training includes the Randi Potter course and have studied with a local mentor. (I am not an RPT) I've been using the CyberTuner but have
     had to tune aurally when it wasnt working.. 
    All my customers thus far seemed very pleased however tomorrow l will be tuning for a piano teacher and lm not sure what to expect.
    I have built my own website but am hesitant to SEO higher traffic to it. The reason for this? Fear of the unknown.
    Do l have enough experience?  What if l get a bad customer etc..etc.
    Should l go for this full time, or hold off?Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
    Respectfully 
    -Brian


  • 2.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2022 14:01
    Brian

    There is only one way to find out if you're any good or not. Tune a piano and ask the customer. Ask the teacher if he/she's happy with your tuning. If she's not, ask her for advice. Be honest and upfront that you're starting out and appreciate any help you can get. Some will be happy to give it to you. Others might not, but don't let them get you down. 

    Don't be afraid of failure. Even after 45 years I still get an occasional customer who wasn't satisfied with my tuning. But most of the time it had nothing to do with the actual tuning. Some customers just like to complain, even if there wasn't anything wrong. I've learned that you can't please everyone. So don't let the few bad apples ruin it for you. Do the best you can. 

    Good luck, and welcome to the PTG.

    Wim





  • 3.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2022 15:55
    Way too  few tuning experience to go out and charge for it. You must practice on at least 100 






  • 4.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2022 16:25
    Those are excellent questions ! You already got valuable answers here...

    If your local chapter is active you will get great advice there also.

    There is (maybe ?) a mentorship program on one of the facebook groups: Piano Technicians Guild (PTG), Global Piano Technicians, Piano Technicians International. Learn to use the search function on those.

    Welcome !

    Allan Sutton, m.mus. RPT
    www.pianotechniquemontreal.com





  • 5.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Posted 04-27-2022 12:29
    Agree with Paul on this. But we're all far away from you, which makes diagnosis difficult. What does your mentor say?
    Another thing would be being able to do common repairs, like replacing a broken string. And do you have parts for common repairs?

    ------------------------------
    John Formsma
    New Albany MS
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2022 19:43
    "Leap, and the net will appear." - John Burroughs

    ------------------------------
    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2022 21:27
    Glad to hear that you've already encountered the larger challenge of tuning aurally. I didn't hear that you've been using your own ears to tell you whether a tuning (the entire piano or just a unison) is good or misses the mark. An ETD will do the work of figuring out a good tuning for you, but if your ears can't tell you when the machine tuning needs improving, you won't last long in this business. Open your ears. At this point, asking tomorrow's piano teacher if the tuning is good will tell him/her you personally don't know what a good tuning sounds like.

    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2022 11:48
    What Brian is looking for is validation. If a person attends a school or finds an apprenticeship, there's some guidance and ultimately validation of progress and readiness to hang out a shingle. Brian's experience plugs right into PTG's mission-helping the self-motivated, self-starter to find out what piano service is all about. For Brian the RPT credential could be his validation. If he's at least working on achieving RPT, he's moving forward with guidance. He has back up. He has connections to find work, perhaps free at first, but eventually for money.

    It's important, that PTG attempts to meet that need in an organized way that meets newbies at their level while allowing them to control their own future. Becoming professional means meeting at least basic standards via organized learning, whether that's with a school or as a disciplined self-starter. 

    The main problem with the PTG path is that it is the hardest of all of the options, but it's the cheapest. That's the attraction. Unfortunately, In most cases newbies don't know what they don't know; but they need to know quickly to avoid cheating customers. Achieving competence means having some idea of what competence actually looks like. 

    Richard West





  • 9.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2022 13:24
    "What Brian is looking for is validation."

    If he has ears, his pianos will validate him.


    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2022 15:28
    You make it sound easy. Just what newbies want to hear.

    Ears alone do not validate. Niether does an ETD. Validation begins with perception, and requires a trained brain to interpret piano signals. And that says nothing about how all that changes when called upon to actually move a string/tuning pin and how to do that properly.

    Please d
    Don't minimize what is required, Bill.

    Richard West





  • 11.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2022 23:20
    "Don't minimize what is required, Bill."

    I agree with you on the challenging complexity of the tuning process, Richard. But the ear (and I should have specified, musical) underlies all that, it's what guides us in our work. It occupies the same fundamental sine-qua-non for tuning as eyesight does for painting. If you can't see an apple and a vase of flowers on a table, you won't be able to paint it.

    That's what I meant by the OP's ears validating his tuning. If he knows what intonation and harmony are, they will tell him whether he's on the right track.

    It's another version of J.P. Morgan's remark on the cost of a yacht: "if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it." IOW, if you don't have ears to hear, you won't be able to do a good tuning, or hear the tick of a loose hammer. (…before the pianist has to point it out to you.)

    I agree that we shouldn't let someone who can tune six guitar strings from a guitar tuner (another ETD), think for a moment that the only difference between that and tuning a piano is just the number of strings (40x more). I just wanted to make sure our hopeful beginner wasn't overlooking the most important tool to guide his learning: his ears.


    ------------------------------
    William Ballard RPT
    WBPS
    Saxtons River VT
    802-869-9107

    "Our lives contain a thousand springs
    and dies if one be gone
    Strange that a harp of a thousand strings
    should keep in tune so long."
    ...........Dr. Watts, "The Continental Harmony,1774
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2022 23:34
    Thanks, Bill!

    Richard





  • 13.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Posted 04-29-2022 09:44
    Bill, excellent point and explanation.

    I'm not sure if it has been mentioned on this thread so I'll add that specifically, we all need to understand not only what all intervals sound like but also a technical description in terms of beat rate and what side of pure etc. Of course what is generally taught is Equal Temperament but a solid understanding of that should help to guide a beginning tuner develop or improve his "tuner's ear". 

    This is fundamental stuff but for ETD tuners, these details could possibly be unknown or at least not well understood and still, as with an ETD in hand, will allow the them give a piano a respectable tuning.

    If Paul or any (especially ETD) beginner is well versed in the above, I think they're off to a good start. 

    I'm am an ETD tuner and I think my tunings today are better than they were 10 years ago and those were better than tunings 10 years before that. I'll admit that as a beginner, I did not have the understanding of aural tuning that I do now, and I honestly don't have the skill to apply even what I know now to efficiently tune aurally, but you've got to start somewhere...so Paul, I say jump in.

    This is of course only one piece of the puzzle. I like Martin's "immersion" suggestion too as well as the rest of the suggestions, it's another great example of the piano technician's community desire to share skills and knowledge to encourage and help all of us succeed.







  • 14.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-29-2022 13:13

    Gary, et.al..

     

    Steve was very strict on only aural tuning teaching. This was before ETD's actually started taking over as the "way".  This is 30+ years ago. He covered pretty much everything I should know to be a technician (not just a "tuner") out in the field in his 1500 hour apprenticeship program. I assisted in several rebuilding projects he had in the shop, learning even more than I ever would in normal actual tuning world.  Outstanding education.

     

    I learned even more working with Mike Reiter and Roger Gable later in my younger years on rebuilding and "fine tuning" of regulations and action rebuilding, etc. Always learning in conventions, all day seminars and other learning experiences. Also to Richard West, Malcomb Bilson and Bart Van Ooort (for forte pianos and harpsichords) Priceless!!!

     

    In NO way was I, in anyway, prepared to care for somebody's piano in the home after only 10 pianos!  It's not a good idea for any beginner.

     

    It was very difficult, and my ears and concentration were very challenged learning in the practice rooms at UW. I knew at one day, I would have a gig like Steve's,  as that was my aim. It was great practice to "tune out" outside noise from a sax or vocalist rehearsing in a room next door.

     

      I'm still totally aural. I guess I'm a dinosaur. Ive used Tune Lab a bit and it's OK, but I don't always agree on its' intervals on temperaments.  It's splitting hairs many times, and know I drive myself nuts splitting hairs during concert tunings getting unisons so tight that the ETD can't really tell anyway. George Winston actually thanked me in front on the audience when I tuned for him at univ of Nebraska, Lincoln at the Lied Center. He is a stickler for unisons! I do see value in ETD's for speed or lesser value consoles or spinets etc.

     

    After 15 years being self employed and 16 years as a CAUT, I think I know a bit. I've seen it all, believe me!

     

    Best,

     

    Paul T. Williams RPT

    Director of Piano Services

    School of Music

    University of South Carolina

    Columbia, SC 29208

    pwilliams@mozart.sc.edu

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     






  • 15.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Posted 04-29-2022 16:28
    Paul,

    I'm very sorry, but for some reason I thought I was addressing the O.P. (who I now see is Brian). My bad. I don't know which post I was looking at that had your name on it. Again, my apologies.

    After going back the the original post, I see Brian is also training aurally so Brian, you're headed in the right direction. Looks like you've got plenty of suggestions to work with here.

    All the best!
    Gary







  • 16.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2022 22:22

    Hi Brian,

    Welcome to the industry, and the Guild! Several thoughts here:

    The only way you get experience is by getting experience. In other words, you actually have to tune pianos to get better at tuning pianos. Notice I don't say tune your own piano a million times. It was my experience and now observation that tuning ten different pianos brings your skills up about as much as tuning your own piano 75 times or so. That's because each piano responds very differently. The more pianos you experience, the better you'll become at judging what will work on that particular piano, and the better your tunings will be. But it all starts by starting. (Sorry, I'm feeling in a bit of a zen mood, LOL.)

    Maybe it's just me, but I've never viewed teachers as necessarily more picky than non-teaching clients. Some clients are picky, some aren't, and you'll learn how to deal with them in time. A great deal of humility helps in these situations. As Wim said, don't be afraid of 'failure'. View anything that you perceive as 'failure' as a learning experience, and as perhaps even a divine course correction. When (not if) you fail at something, feel the pain long enough to learn the lesson, then get back up and move on. It won't be the end of the world, I promise. 

    Regarding your website, I wouldn't necessarily pay for SEO help to market it, but do publish it and get it tied in to a local business listing on Google. When you feel ready to invest money into it, try Google AdWords before something more expensive. 

    Going full time vs. part time: 10 tunings is not enough to pay your bills on if that's the only thing you do. It may feel like you're making the big bucks, but unless you have enough demand to keep you busy and pay all your bills and then some, I wouldn't make the leap quite yet. Dave Ramsey says, "Get the boat close enough to the dock to step on, don't leap and risk ending up in the water."

    Maybe set aside one day a week to tune pianos. When you're consistently booked on that day, open another day to tune on. When you're consistently booked on both days, open a third, etc. Or do evenings, or whatever. Keep your day job / part time job until you can transition over to full time piano work in such a way where it makes your life a dream, not a nightmare. 

    Good luck! Feel free to email or call me if you need help with anything. I've walked a few newbies through the starting process, and I'd be happy to help where I can. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-26-2022 22:32
    If your unisons are really good, you can be slightly careless on several other things and most musicians will pronounce it good. Unisons, unisons, unisons...

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    603-686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-27-2022 01:28
    My suggestion would be to do what I did and find a piano store that is willing to let you tune floor pianos.  Around a piano store you are more likely to get feedback and to meet other piano tuners, most of whom will give advice and should help.

    When you get better the store will eventually refer clients to you.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2022 11:10
    Most of us who are skilled and established would not be where we are if we had waited till we had tuned 100 pianos to start charging for it. I say have someone who can back you up, but jump on in. You'll learn faster and be more motivated.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2022 13:13

    The 100 pianos is what Steve Brady taught me to so, under his program, before going forth to not embarrass myself or ripping people off for a bad tuning. I agreed with this thought. His course was quite comprehensive and rigid, and he taught me everything to be confident with tuning, field work for minor repairs and regulation problems.

     

    You never know what you're going to get at a new customer when getting started. Or any new customer even now.

     

    What do you do if you just go for a tuning, only knowing a bare minimum, and then,  there is something wrong with the piano? People don't know much if anything about their piano, so just calling for a tuning may open up a Pandora's box and embarrassment.

     

    I stand behind my statements.  Charging people after only tuning 10 pianos is not the best road to follow.

     

    Paul






  • 21.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2022 18:26

    Some thoughts Paul,

    Tuning one's own piano 100 times doesn't give nearly the experience level as tuning two dozen pianos for clients. Not only that, but but one also can't learn customer service without, you know, serving customers. Of course no one's very good when they first get started, but as long as the client knows that the tuner in question is a beginner up front, I think it would be ok. 

    As far as not running into problems you don't know how to fix… uh, that's pretty much how we all learn something new. And it's not something that goes away with experience, LOL. 

    John hit on this, but there's motivation involved in getting $ for one's work. Doing 100 pianos for free is going to be draining with all the time and gas money spent with seeing nothing in return. 

    BUT - I also understand not wanting to inadvertently rip off a client because you don't know what you're doing. Here's what I did when I started. I offered a 2-for-1 deal. The client would pay for one tuning, and at the end of the appointment I'd set up another appointment for one month out. That gave me the opportunity to come back and fix whatever was wrong, but also make some money in the process. I think I did that for my first 20(?) clients. It worked out well for me, plus I got to actually see my progress. Also, it doesn't build you a database of clients that want everything for free. 



    ------------------------------
    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-28-2022 20:29
    Well, BS, I studied with Steve at University of Washington School of Music. I worked on practice grands and uprights. I think I tuned my 1946 Arlege console the about 8-10 times. It had an aluminum plate
     I figured if I can tune that, I could tune anything





  • 23.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Posted 05-03-2022 07:47
    Well Said Paul.

    I am of the opinion that if one can tune a Wurlitzer, Kimball or off brand spinet and get it sounding pretty good (via the aural method), one can tune anything.  :-)

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    865-384-6582
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 04-29-2022 10:40
    Benjamin,
    Your 2 for 1 deal sounds like an excellent idea!

    Paul,
    I can see where you're coming from. If one has access to Steve Brady and a Univeristy of pianos to work on it is a good and noble thing to get as prepared as possible. There is a difference between starting out in the Seattle area and starting out in central Texas where Brian is and which is where I also started out (Waco). There is more leniency in a rural area. You find yourself in situations where the customer is appreciative of the fact that you know just know something about pianos. You do need to careful to be up-front about your inexperience.

    ------------------------------
    John Pope
    University of Kentucky School of Music
    Lexington, KY
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Posted 04-28-2022 18:35
    Totally agree Paul….whaaat,! 10 pianos what can possibly go wrong!!!  tune for free at old folks homes etc, contact stores and piano workshops to do floor tunings and practice repairs , contact piano movers and refinishers  to help out , immerse  yourself in all things pianos, read history of piano makers, and different companies regulation procedures . Your knowledge  in many related piano maintenance  procedures will give you more confidence in conversations with your future customers . In your downtime practice conversations with yourself  of piano maintenance FAQ's. Do you play piano  if not learn basics so at least you can play some chordal progressions, if not you're at the mercy of  the 7 year old in the house to demonstrate your tuning not a good look !   So much more ….
    www.snowpianos.com

    ------------------------------
    Martin Snow
    South Burlington VT
    617-543-1030
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Posted 04-28-2022 18:23
    Ironically, I've found that there are a lot of piano teachers that really don't know what an in tune piano sounds like, so be careful if you ask their opinion. Some piano teachers have the worst sounding pianos! And, if they don't approve they won't know what they don't like anyway, so it probably won't be very helpful. 

    After 27 years of doing this, I still have a fear of an unknown piano, even though I can handle them very well now. So, that might not go away. Sorry...

    Experience? No, you most likely don't have enough experience, but it's up to you to decide when the point is that you're ready to dive in. That's the good and bad of what we do. The good news is, you get to make your own decisions and do what works for you. The bad news is, you have to make your own decisions and decide what works for you. None of us operates the same way. We all have our own way of doing things. And, in many respects, there is no right or wrong way. As long as the piano is in tune and functions well, then that was the right way! 

    Bad customers? Yikes, this one is inevitable, but there it is, nothing to be done... Try to learn from it and move on. It helps to have someone you can process it with and get it off your chest.

    I'm interested in what is happening with your CyberTuner when you say "it wasn't working". The app or device stopped working or it just wasn't able to get good readings? Possibly a good thing for you to do is have a backup program like PianoMeter. It's excellent software and very inexpensive. If you depend on an ETA (Electronic Tuning App) like I do, then backup is very important. I use a Chromebook tablet for tuning and then my phone is my backup. I have all the same tuning apps installed on my phone. These days if you have a capable, professional tuning app then tuning the piano is, in some ways, the easiest part. Just be sure to pay attention to unisons and octaves. It's the repairs and action adjustments that will get you!

    ------------------------------
    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    www.thattuningguy.com
    PianoMeter, TuneLab, OnlyPure, PianoScope & PiaTune user
    ------------------------------



  • 27.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-03-2022 22:15
    I would like to remind everyone about a wonderful letter in the PTJ a few years ago, by a Chicago tech; He said that "In a perfect world a beginner would start off tuning concert grands.  After a few years of work he (or she, not trying to be sexist here) would graduate to 7 foot grands, then down to 6 foot grands, then graduating to studio consoles.  After years of tuning smaller and smaller consoles you would finish your career tuning spinets."

    I stuggled for years with spinets, but I learned more about piano tuning on wonderful larger grands; it is much easier to fine tune a temperament and octaves on a great piano.  Now I bring my expertese back to spinets and I can often do a decent tuning on one (remember, in theory the treble of any piano should be about the same).

    I still think that finding an agreeable store with a good tech who is patient enough to help you to begin the looooooong process of becomming a good tuner is best.

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert
    Duarte CA
    626-795-5170
    ------------------------------



  • 28.  RE: New P.T seeking advice

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 05-04-2022 15:18
    Another option to get working to gain experience and some money might be to peruse the Craigslist for sale pianos and suggest to the seller that it might be easier to sell the piano if it were tuned first. You could charge less than you hope to when you’ve gained more experience and the expectation would likely be lower. Many of those pianos haven’t been tuned in years or decades and as such not enticing to people even shopping for a very cheap instrument.



    Joe