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Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

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  • 1.  Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

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    Posted 01-17-2020 20:53
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  • 2.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2020 10:36
    Roshan,

    Yes, you have an "ultimate solution." But only mathematically speaking. What you don't seem to get is that the math never matches the real world of tuning because the piano isn't strictly mathematical. You give us the harmonic paradigm according to the intellectual world of mathematics. But it doesn't fit any piano in the real world. We deal in the real world of inharmonic math. To express that mathematically would be an incredibly complex process just for one piano because bridges, termination points, and the organic nature of the beast defies strict mathematics. I'm a tuner, not a mathematician, and I have to find compromises that lead to the most harmonic combination of 88 notes that I can come up for any given piano. 

    Thank you for your intellectual explorations of mathematical relationships. I appreciate your work.  But, do you understand that your ultimate solution isn't really a solution for tuners? Inharmonicity in pianos doesn't lend itself to mathematical "solutions" that fit every piano. Each piano we work on has its own solution and a tuner's  job is to figure out what that individual solution is and do it on the fly and find it may actually change as we work through the process on each instrument.

    Richard West





  • 3.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2020 12:17
    Richard, you left out changes in inharmonicity at every wire size change.

    ------------------------------
    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-18-2020 12:46
    Yes, Larry, what you said, and what I said and a whole lot more!! That's real world tuning. Not to say that knowing the math isn't important; it is important. But many a technician now and in the past have done very good work without knowing or caring about the math. Just picking up a few basic practical concepts and getting the job done.

    Richard







  • 5.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-18-2020 13:44
    What is fascinating about piano tuning rather than merely the maths is that the instrument is an analogue computer in which the tuning finds different solutions for different instruments. This is why one brand of piano sounds different to anther. Perfect 12th tuning should be renamed 3rd Harmonic tuning shouldn't it?

    Roshan - something perhaps you might look at is the minimum entropy tuner  https://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.02292.pdf 

    However in my opinion equal temperament tuning based on getting inharmonics to sound as harmonically pleasing as possible produces a result not a million miles away from the concept of a gamelan. 

    Best wishes

    David P
    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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  • 6.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-19-2020 10:43
    Richard and Roshan,

    Though I do agree with Richard, that each piano has its eccentricities and having been an aural tuner for 40 years I trust my ears more than the math; I do find this discussion and Roshans work interesting and of value. Food for thought and a lively discussion.

    Anytime I'm forced to learn something new it adds to my arsenal and causes me to take more time and analyze what I'm doing, 

    Thank you all, Nancy Salmon, RPT






  • 7.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-27-2020 08:58
    Whilst searching expertise in a certain country this morning I stumbled on  https://www.pianoweb.fr/sergecordier-temperamentaquintesjustes.php 

    The conference paper that is referenced shows a perfect 12th Serge Cordier 1970 temperament so this appears to have been visited before.

    Best wishes

    David P

    On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 6:44 PM David Pinnegar <antespam@gmail.com> wrote:
    What is fascinating about piano tuning rather than merely the maths is that the instrument is an analogue computer in which the tuning finds different solutions for different instruments. This is why one brand of piano sounds different to anther. Perfect 12th tuning should be renamed 3rd Harmonic tuning shouldn't it?

    Roshan - something perhaps you might look at is the minimum entropy tuner  https://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.02292.pdf 

    However in my opinion equal temperament tuning based on getting inharmonics to sound as harmonically pleasing as possible produces a result not a million miles away from the concept of a gamelan. 

    Best wishes

    David P
    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 8.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

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  • 9.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-27-2020 10:27
    [grin] Roshan, well said. Agreed.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 10.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-27-2020 11:00
    Roshan,

    We’ve had mathematical descriptions of tuning for literally centuries. They’ve been a good start for a beginning tuner. But they can also be an impediment. For example, beginners are told that the F3/A3 major third is supposed to be 7 beats per second. They get out their watches. They repeat words like “Mississippi, Mississippi” to try to approximate 7 beats. They might have an external device that beats at 7 bps. It’s hard for them to get by the math and open themselves up to the rather fluid “rules” (or lack thereof) that are operative in aurally setting the first 6 notes of a temperament, or the whole piano for that matter. The beat speed of F3/A3 is really up in the air to some extent until the whole temperament is finished. And, if you are really picky, F3/A3 could be subject to change at any time in tuning the whole piano.

    Mathematical precision helps and has been central as computers/ETDs apply algorithms to tuning. But to tune aurally, a person is on a journey. An aural tuner gets his bearings in the middle, but isn’t done with the journey until the rest of the piano has guided him/her to what works best to make F3/A3 correct in that particular piano along with all the other intervals. That’s why aural tuners find aural tuning engaging. It’s always a puzzle and challenge and never reaches perfection, at least not in the mathematical sense. But maybe in the esthetic sense. A good tuning in the hands of a master pianist can bring you to tears.

    Richard




  • 11.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-18-2020 11:09
    Congratulations! You've discovered the default temperament that Reyburn and other devices have been using for several years.

    ------------------------------
    Jonathan Cleghorn, MME
    Iron Range Piano Co.
    Cotton, MN
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

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    Posted 01-18-2020 11:26
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  • 13.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-20-2020 01:25
    Roshan,
    Jonathan has a good point. The Cybertuner has a Pure12th option but as I have noticed I just can't stand the way octaves sound with Pure12ths. It differs from piano to piano, and I would totally love having Pure12ths, but alas it muddy's up octave quite a bit in some portions of some pianos. I don't use that option on my Cybertuner.

    ------------------------------
    Cobrun Sells
    cobrun94@yahoo.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-20-2020 13:31
    " I would totally love having Pure12ths, but alas it muddy's up octave quite a bit in some portions of some pianos."

    Perhaps this is true about about pure12 ET tunings in some portions of some pianos; this is a nicely nuanced critique.

    However, many find pure12 ET tunings to have a beautifully-consonant overall sound. I have not found that carefully executed Pure12 tunings produce muddy octaves; on the contrary, stacks of octaves tuned in Pure12 ET tend to sound wonderfully pure.

    But, the one thing I really want to say here is that after 12 years of my tuning pure12 ET, all the while watching its widespread adoption around the world by piano tech after piano tech, I am amazed that pure12 ET has been so immediately appreciated when first heard by those trying it. The naysayers are relatively few; this is remarkable in the piano tuning field where widely varying "tuning preferences" are normally given such great weight and deference.

    Four major software ETD's, including TuneLab, Verituner, CyberTuner, and OnlyPure can tune Pure12 ET.

    It might be worth giving Pure12 ET another chance at some point.  [grin]

    Sent from my iPad





  • 15.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-20-2020 15:07
    Essentially it's a 3rd Harmonic tuning. The third harmonic is in a nice space in the harmonic structure being at a pivot point or balance with inharmonicities. Get the 3rd Harmonics tuned and then other harmonics won't be far off. This is why such a tuning will produce good resonance in an instrument.

    However if you're going for an Ultimate Solution I'd willingly tune side by side an instrument in my twisted unequal temperament in a "bake-off" with pure 12th and look forward to seeing the results of what players might prefer :-)

    Best wishes

    David P



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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 16.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

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    Posted 01-27-2020 12:04
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  • 17.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-27-2020 13:30
    I'm scratching my head with this because isn't "pure twelth" actually achieved by matching the 3rd harmonic to the scale note? Accordingly the scheme is self-adjusting for inharmonicity. The piano itself is the analogue computer for solving the inharmonicity equations in each particular circumstance. The maths gives the "pure" interval but the piano adapts it to suit.

    And as Serge Cordier was working on this in 1970  https://www.pianoweb.fr/sergecordier-temperamentaquintesjustes.php  just how new is this news that perfect 12th is so perfect?

    The reality is that what equal temperament does is to hide the musical intervals under a lot of beating, fuzz, ice, shimmer and glistening. It sells pianos, bedazzles the seeker of an instrument, but the music has to hide under this barrier of an ice-cap on top. In contrast when one judiciously tunes for some fifths and some thirds to be really rather good the musical intervals that the composer intended are allowed to work their magic, just as a choir or brass ensemble will adjust between themselves to bring perfect harmony through to the listener.

    A pianist came to see me yesterday to try out early instruments and tuning for a concert on an 1830s Stodart in Germany. He said that one of the most magical experiences he had had was that of some of the French Horn repertoire played on open horn, the valves and "perfect" tuning of modern instruments getting in the way of the music.

    A quest for "the Ultimate" for a solution, a singularity of best, really just isn't possible - there are many solutions and some are better in some circumstances than others. We can see with different colours of light, and White Light might be ubiquitous but isn't always the ultimate best. 

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 18.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-27-2020 14:45
    David-
    Since you've joined PTG, click on the Journal link above and read Kent Swafford's twelve-part series on 21st century piano tuning, starting in August 2017.
    It will take you more than a week to read and comprehend the series, but you will find elegantly thought through answers to your questions.
    Kent has wrestled with these questions in his daily work for forty years, and he has worked to absorb the thoughts and experiences of many of the great tuners and theorists of the last decades.
    It is worth the effort to wrestle with what he has to say. If there are answers to your questions, you will find them in his writing

    ------------------------------
    Ed Sutton
    ed440@me.com
    (980) 254-7413
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

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    Posted 01-27-2020 20:17
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  • 20.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-28-2020 05:31
    Thanks. But there is a problem. In my view temperaments like this are neither beast nor fowl. With only 4 perfect fifths the difference between this and equal temperament is hardly likely to be heard. What really turns the music inside out are contrasts between beating, and beatless - clear and those so far from beatless, in other words beating so fast that they don't relate.

    It's then that in the music we open up to a new set of dimensions that Equal Temperament and it's quasi equivalents can only dream of - 
    certain - uncertain
    clean - dirty
    cold-ice - wet
    solid - liquid
    and a whole host of similar metaphors.

    Furthermore, because of the increase of coincident notes and partials, the instrument resonates. Power is then achieved in the harmony, in the natural nature of the composition and its relation off vibrations, with the pedal remaining down for bars rather than beats . . .  just as Beethoven and Chopin wrote for . . . rather than the brute force for which modern instruments are made to withstand and the unpleasant hitting of the keyboard.

    Musicians who have experienced unequal temperament that they can hear, and which fulfills those requirements, without being nasty as some can be, go back to vanilla tuning yearning for curry again. It makes a sensitive musician so much more able to bring the emotional content of the music to life and to light.

    Moving from the piano as a percussion instrument and as a gamelan to that once more which can be the reduction of the orchestra and which can sing lyrically like the flute or violin will restore interest and enthusiasm, connexion with the classical music, and spawn a whole new industry of playing, recording and instrument making as the repertoire is recorded again.

    Equal temperaments and their quasi modifications will spawn only more of the same. And certainly in England and France, that's downhill.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594





  • 21.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    This message was posted by a user wishing to remain anonymous
    Posted 01-28-2020 19:37
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  • 22.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-28-2020 20:41
    I'm sorry to have to tell you that I was referring to your favourite temperament as neither beast nor fowl.

    The best thirds aren't near enough pure and only four perfect fifths. It's not strong enough to make the difference to give the magic of an unequal temperament. Not strong enough to create beauty in purity and beatlessness and contrast with the stronger intervals. 

    I've been caught out being unable to hear Valotti as different from Equal Temperament and Vallotti with 6 perfect fifths is stronger than your favourite.

    Thus my comments in that context.

    Thanks. But there is a problem. In my view temperaments like this are neither beast nor fowl. With only 4 perfect fifths the difference between this and equal temperament is hardly likely to be heard. What really turns the music inside out are contrasts between beating, and beatless - clear and those so far from beatless, in other words beating so fast that they don't relate.

    It's then that in the music we open up to a new set of dimensions that Equal Temperament and it's quasi equivalents can only dream of - 
    certain - uncertain
    clean - dirty
    cold-ice - wet
    solid - liquid
    and a whole host of similar metaphors.
     
    Furthermore, because of the increase of coincident notes and partials, the instrument resonates. Power is then achieved in the harmony, in the natural nature of the composition and its relation off vibrations, with the pedal remaining down for bars rather than beats . . .  just as Beethoven and Chopin wrote for . . . rather than the brute force for which modern instruments are made to withstand and the unpleasant hitting of the keyboard.
     
    Musicians who have experienced unequal temperament that they can hear, and which fulfills those requirements, without being nasty as some can be, go back to vanilla tuning yearning for curry again. It makes a sensitive musician so much more able to bring the emotional content of the music to life and to light.
     
    Moving from the piano as a percussion instrument and as a gamelan to that once more which can be the reduction of the orchestra and which can sing lyrically like the flute or violin will restore interest and enthusiasm, connexion with the classical music, and spawn a whole new industry of playing, recording and instrument making as the repertoire is recorded again.
    Equal temperaments and their quasi modifications will spawn only more of the same. And certainly in England and France, that's downhill.

    The other day I was introducing a pianist proposing to play Beethoven and Schubert on a period instrument that Vallotti was too tame and that he could go to a stronger temperament to be heard. After playing on Kellner and Kirnberger III on my instruments he remarked how it was so much more revealing for the music.

    Best wishes

    David P 

     





  • 23.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

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    Posted 01-29-2020 17:26
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  • 24.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-29-2020 18:59
      |   view attached
    I don't want to be seen to be derailing your thread but 
    a. perfect 12th tuning has been around since 1970 with Serge Cordier. If you're writing an academic thesis then you should be identifying why your work builds beyond his and 
    b. balance? What room is there for balance to make keys equal in music other than for the gamelan?

    Music has been divorced from its language. The language tells us something about the music - that on account of long separation, we're missing.

    What do you do with a key? :-)

    What does a key really do?

    It opens a door.

    Where to?

    A different place.

    Where is the different place in an equal or quasi equal environment in which all colours are balanced to grey and all variations between black and white are carefully balanced so that they are grey?

    Chromatic. What is Chromatic? What does Chromatic really mean?

    In music we've forgotten that it means anything other than going up in half steps. Why the association between half steps and chromatic?

    I'm sure that there are many Grey Haired colleagues on this forum who are photographers for whom George Eastman was a hero. Ekta****** . . . Koda****** were the transparency versions of what type of film? Colour! And the negative films were KodaColor . . . Chrome means Colour!

    How can we see all the colours in a rainbow if they are all balanced out to be a muddy brown if you've mixed paints, or a shade of grey?

    The abstraction of colour into grey is a major reason why music is not communicating emotion, because there's none to see, no contrasts beyond loud soft and fast slow, and the sustaining pedal just brings all the vibrations into a mush, leading to the "loud" pedal being exactly that, amplifying chords on every beat and being operated by pianists as a kick drum.

    It's led to what is known as "vertical playing" where the music is reproduced as on a paper roll of a mechanical machine beat by beat, chord by chord, and lyricism is lost.

    You tell me that I must forget perfect fifths - but that's exactly what you're finding as magic in perfect 12th tuning. On an organ that means perfect 5ths also and in fact it's 3rd harmonic alignment tuning.

    That's what we need to enable resonance. But the equal spacing between semitones pits all the harmonics close together so that they interlap and beat together. This gives a mush which makes the sustain pedal unusable for its intended purpose of sustain.

    We know from Chopin's correspondence that he practiced on a Pantalon. This was a simple form of piano, cheap, with wooden hammers and no dampers. How could one play complex harmonic structure on such an instrument if the result was a mush? The answer is in the tuning using the collective result to reduce the numbers of modes of vibration. When an interval is so far away from perfect ratios then the beat frequency becomes so fast that we don't hear the beats. When it's very close, then the interval is still, or very nearly so. So it resonates near pure and the ones far from the perfect don't resonate. So we remove the mush.

    Attached is the beat analysis of the Kakiya Young temperament vs Equal and Kellner. In this measure ET gives 38% of coincidence of scale note to harmonics beating less than 1 beat per second, the Kakiya Young 41%, so it's an improvement and the Kellner 43%. ET produces around 15% beating 1 per second, KY 11% and Kellner 9%. 1 to 5 beats, ET 33%, KY 31% and Kellner 28%. So ET gives much more constant moving in the sound.

    For a piano that will handle it, Kirnberger III gives even better results with 45% beating less than 1 per second.

    If you would like to slot in the frequencies for pure 12th ET into Column AU of Sheet 1 on the spreadsheet, you'll get the extent to which 3rd harmonic tuning, or pure 12th ET improves over standard ET.

    By way of my twist to Kellner, which can be applied to Kirnberger III also of which Eben Goresko is now aware and one or two temperament specialists here to whom I have disclosed on a confidential basis for experiment, I can get the number of 1 beat coincidences down from ET 15% better than standard Kellner at 9% right down to 4%. Likewise the number of 1 to 5 beat coincidences from 33% ET down beyond the 28% of Kellner down to 24%.

    The results of the twisted technique on Kirnberger III will be even more so. 

    So it really is possible to build stillness into the tuning, reduce the mush, and restore the techniques of Chopin and Beethoven in pedalling.

    The 1818 Broadwood given to Beethoven, exactly like mine of 1819
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXZxR0AaXAA
    has a divided sustain pedal for treble and bass. This allows special harmonic effects. This instrument, going right through to the 1859 instrument
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOQ6O7PD_yc
    presents next to no 5th harmonic in its sound. 

    Likewise an 1847 Broadwood in the Chris Maene museum
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZUmZ5amfVA

    Because the pre-1870s instruments avoided the 5th harmonic, perfect fifth tunings, and indeed perfect 12th tunings can work extremely well on them and they can take as strong a temperament as one likes with really wide thirds. Thus on the recording of the 1859 in Kirnberger III I have difficulty in identifying the Kirnberger III from standard ET - but the resonance is changed so that power is built from the vibrations, not the brute force of the player or the extent to which the modern instrument can be abused by brute force players.

    It's more musical thereby and rewards the player for listening to the sound he is making.

    Logarithmic analysis of temperament is misleading and inadequate because it doesn't tell us about beating, the musical qualities and contrast of stillness and movement.

    It will be very interesting if you can plug in the Perfect 12th Frequencies into Column AU on Sheet 1 and tell us the results given on the Front Page in column I.

    Best wishes

    David P

    ------------------------------
    David Pinnegar
    East Grinstead
    +44 1342 850594
    ------------------------------



  • 25.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-29-2020 20:00
      |   view attached
    Apologies for second post in a row.

    Ed Sutton very kindly pointed me to Kent Swafford's work which I'll pursue further but http://welltemperedtune.com/tuning/pure12ths/P12.html might be a helpful summary. Using the 3^(1/19) factor for generation of each semitone I've plugged the P12th temperament into the spreadsheet. I apologise for an error in my former post - the frequencies should go into column BS on Sheet 1, and I see from the website that Kent has adopted a similar frequency based spreadsheet approach.

    Having done this, spreadsheet attached, we see that the result is largely what we expect for Equal temperament with only 37% accordance of notes with harmonics within 1 beat per second, (from memory this might be 1 beat per 2 seconds, the 1 second measure being between 1/2 and 1 1/2 beats per second - whatever the exactness chosen it's a measure of stillness) for P12, 38% for ET and 43% for Kellner.

    It scores on the 1 beat per second measure though, ET rating at 15%, Kellner 9% and P12 7%

    It should be remembered that in comparison my twisted Kellner here comes down to 4%

    Looking at between 1 and 5 beats per second ET is 33%, Kellner 28% and P12 down to 20%

    This is impressive and demonstrates something very interesting going on. As yet I'm not sure what that is telling us. As still sounds, less than 1 beat per second between scale notes and harmonics are similar to ET, and around 1 beat per second, and between 1 and 5 beats per second have been massively reduced, then one might assume an increased number of notes and harmonics are more than 5 beats divergent. However the spreadsheet needs to be extended to do that analysis.

    Best wishes

    David P 


    ------------------------------
    David Pinnegar
    East Grinstead
    +44 1342 850594
    ------------------------------



  • 26.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

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    Posted 01-29-2020 20:03
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  • 27.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-30-2020 06:09
    Last night I did check the spreadsheet for numbers of notes and harmonics combining in the 5 to 10 beat per second region. In ET Kellner and P12, there was no difference in this proportion.

    So we have an anomaly. P12 competes together with the unequal temperaments as against ET in the 1 beat per second region, but is the same as ET as far as direct coincidence is concerned. It's better than Kellner by far in the  1 to 5 beat region, so appearing to be able to create a clearer, stiller sound. But I have a problem with the mathematical analysis because if the number of coincident notes are the same as ET, and 1 to 5 beats very much better, and better than the unequal temperaments, then one would expect a higher proportion of frequencies somewhere beating much faster.

    That proviso aside, it should not be more resonant than ET in terms of coincident notes but the increase of numbers within 1 beat per second will help the resonance a bit. To the extent to which the numbers in the 2-5 beats per second adds to resonance without confusion probably needs to be heard to gauge the effect.

    The figures are:
    Coincident notes with harmonics - ET 38%, Kellner 43%, P12 37%
    Around 1 beat - ET 15%, Kellner 9%, P12 7%
    1 to 5 beats - ET 33%, Kellner 28%, P12 20%
    2 to 5 beats - ET 16%, Kellner 17%, P12 12%

    What is very important about P12 is something I've noticed with twisted Kellner where the 9th harmonic is very often close to or exactly on the scale note, in P12 there are _no_
    beats with the 9th harmonic.

    So P12 can make a discordant piano with lots of 9th harmonic sound much purer, and enables jazz chords to include not only the 6th note but the 9th as well, adding to richness of sound and texture. One might pick out the effects of different tunings on the 7th and 11th harmonics also for instruments such as the large Kawaii where they are quite strongly present.

    In due course I'll modify the spreadsheets in order to plug in the semitone differences for P5 P19 and P26 tuning also following the details on http://welltemperedtune.com/tuning/pure12ths/P12.html

    Apologies for my analysis being very pedantic compared to Kent's and apologies also if appropriate for being quite obsessed by tuning and displaying nerdy characteristics in seeking increased resonance as well as restoring the colour to chromaticism.

    Best wishes

    David P






  • 28.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-30-2020 15:27
    Plugging in the figures for Perfect 5th, 12th, 19th and 26th tunings we get the following

    ET
    Same Frequencies 38%
    Around 1 beat 15%
    1 to 5 beats 33%
    2 to 5 beats 16%
    0 to 1 beat 53%

    Kellner
    Same Frequencies 43%
    Around 1 beat 9%
    1 to 5 beats 28%
    2 to 5 beats 17%
    0 to 1 beat 52%

    Perfect 5th tuning
    Same Frequencies 20%
    Around 1 beat 0%
    1 to 5 beats 12%
    2 to 5 beats 11%
    0 to 1 beat 20%

    Perfect 12th
    Same Frequencies 37% 
    Around 1 beat 7%
    1 to 5 beats 20%
    2 to 5 beats 12%
    0 to 1 beat 44%

    Perfect 19th
    Same Frequencies 36%
    Around 1 beat 11%
    1 to 5 beats 9%
    2 to 5 beats 13%
    0 to 1 beat 47%

    Perfect 26th
    Same Frequencies 38%
    Around 1 beat 13%
    1 to 5 beats 28%
    2 to 5 beats 13%
    0 to 1 beat 51%

    So we would expect Pure 26th to have similar qualities of resonance and gentle shimmer as ET.

    Obviously all the above is straight without interaction of inharmonics.

    My "twisted Kellner"
    Same Frequencies 43%
    Around 1 beat 6%
    1 to 5 beats 24%
    2 to 5 beats 17%
    0 to 1 beat 49%

    Kirnberger III
    Same Frequencies 45%
    Around 1 beat 8%
    1 to 5 beats 27%
    2 to 5 beats 17%
    0 to 1 beat 53%

    1/4 comma Meantone
    Same Frequencies 36%
    Around 1 beat 18%
    1 to 5 beats 35%
    2 to 5 beats 16%
    0 to 1 beat 54%

    It's possibly difficult to know what these figures really represent in audible terms but the Same Frequency figure is possibly important in giving resonance and stillness. So ET, Perfect 12th and Perfect 26th look similar at around 38% whilst Kellner scores higher at 43% and Kirnberger III 45%.

    Whether this is useful analysis I'm not sure and apologise if it isn't.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar
    East Grinstead
    +44 1342 850594
    ------------------------------



  • 29.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-31-2020 08:34

    "..I don't want to be seen to be derailing your thread but
    a. perfect 12th tuning has been around since 1970 with Serge Cordier. If you're writing an academic thesis then you should be identifying why your work builds beyond his and.."

    As you are so pedantic (as you say), it may be of interest for you to update your records, that Cordier's work is about the pure fifths equal temperament, not pure twelfths equal temperament. 
    Pure fifths equal temperament was described by Mieczyslaw Kolinski in 1959, and was rediscovered by Cordier in 1970. Patrizio Barbieri said pure fifths equal temperament was already known in the 19th century as "Pleyel method".

    Pure 12th equal temperament (Stopper temperament*) originates 1988 with this patent filing:
    https://patents.google.com/patent/DE3810321A1/de

    and my publication about the subject in Euro piano 3/1988. (The link to the pdf on my homepage is actually broken, send me a note if you need a copy). I gave several classes about the subject at the PTG conventions with Kent Swafford over the past years.

    Regards,

    Bernhard Stopper




     



    ------------------------------
    Bernhard Stopper
    Klavierbaumeister
    Tuebingen
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  • 30.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Posted 01-31-2020 12:11
    Dear Bernhard

    Thanks for putting me right. In french I find it rather easy to be confused by technical terms and in the organ world a Quint can refer to the 12th. ;-) So now I appreciate Cordier really was advocating P5 tuning.

    If you might possibly be able to direct me to your article on Europiano I'd be most interested.

    https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=1307  has more discussion and for anyone wanting to simulate for Pianoteq.


    Best wishes

    David P 

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 31.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-31-2020 14:33
    Hi Bernhard,

    I hope you are well. We met at a PTG convention some years ago. 

    I've been using the P12 temperament for several years now, and find it in every way superior to the old "P8" approach. 

    I would like to read your article on the subject in EuroPiano '88. Would you please send it to me? Thanks very much! 

    Mark Schecter, RPT
     | |   | | |   | |   | | | 






  • 32.  RE: Pure 12th Equal Temperament is the Ultimate Solution for the Pythagorean Comma

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-21-2020 11:00
    Kent Swafford wrote:


    "However, many find pure12 ET tunings to have a beautifully-consonant overall sound. I have not found that carefully executed Pure12 tunings produce muddy octaves; on the contrary, stacks of octaves tuned in Pure12 ET tend to sound wonderfully pure."

    I've only had a few clients who didn't like the Pure12 tunings and there are some pianos where I don't like it either. I've adopted the Pure19 for those pianos and people.  Most of those are smaller uprights and lower inharmonicity pianos. One client, a teacher with four grands in his home, demanded "just a regular tuning" on his pianos after trying Pure12. I'd been using the Koval Universal on his pianos and have used the Pure19 lately and he seems to be happier. 




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    John Musselwhite, RPT
    Calgary, AB Canada
    www.musselwhite.com
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